again, is professor richard software kens universities emeritus professor of russian. and you are being politics who is just publish the last piece, how the west failed to prevent a 2nd cold war. thank you so much because the sacrifices are coming back on. i'm not going to talk so much about what the west is, what a cold war is. i actually maybe i should stop by saying, can you forgive? some read is reading your book who see you shot the chains from john to system the rules based on washington rules based thinking, washington must be neutralize, military attacked at all costs, given how we have got here. that would be, i understand about the action because quite clearly fee check to that code of the world. i nowadays called the political west since 1999 has not been spectacular except in terms of failure. given the fact that at the beginning, 199 to it looked as if there would be a better way of working. remember the soviet union in the united states and of the

powers joined together to reverse saddam hussein's attack on quite but terms, enough kosa in the years and the bulk and conflicts the bombing of soviet 1999. and so many other incidents is quite clear that the west used its enormous preponderance of power in an area of sponsible man. you quote from so many different sources that today we associated with the new cone rights, new liberal, right? i don't know what time to use who we used surprises one, cuz today they'll say, go for whole out. what would china go for war because of russia, but even they were wanting the expansion of nato. would the, in the end reduce us power perhaps? yeah, it's important to remember that that's a really nice door to applied. cool, west. cool. it would you like to live in international load or even a certainly far from homogenous and it's very important to understand that that is debate even within the system. and of course, a generation of publication. so if the old school only way from has moving target,

i know nearby. and of course, george kennan wound against may turn lodgement was an even has been near fusion ski, said nato enlargement. we've got an over arching pen, your pen security to older would lead to disaster. now of course, all these warnings have been forgotten. unfortunately, late is have warning, so actually come to take place. so of course, the west, the doubling down on his positions fairly many in the global southward more than the death of the beginning of brzezinski or the grand chessboard you quote to me in the book. i mean, saying european states no more than really vassal states with no silver in general practical terms. you suggest him saying, i mean is that true? now when we look at west in yorba, we turn to west in europe for a 2nd away from the great palace they are. we just see that decline. we have your, your there in britain actually speaking to me. yes. i call them sadly. legacy say

powers, and unfortunately the political activity and you know, what would say in political science, the agency has been undermined because quite clearly there's political west and us land line system has disempowered, germany, france. and so it's a serious powers on the continent. even just to look just before the conflict and you create an early 2022, we had all a shots and i knew them a call both going to most go. and in my view correctly that we are play trying to avoid the will and yet, but they could do nothing. could split decisions, want to tighten in progress. but they know that taken elsewhere, obviously in washington and in the nature had quoted is so they just to play side testimony despite endless to orchestra teacher go autonomy. what's the matter with your opinion itself, instead of coming forward with peace proposals, has been the cate is cheerleader for conflict, which is a, you know, something completely repudiating. it's a good audience. as

a piece project. you say one could make the case, the britain where your speaking to be from is just an aircraft carrier for the united states, with all its u. s. military bases masquerading is already f ones and all the military troops. but you know that if the present macro could and we invite him appear on this program with those right now he'd say, what are you talking about? and you mentioned them kicking out the base is the friendship in the what was it the 40s or fifties at us basis? and you know, you see the all the, and to us vote to the united nations the unwillingness to go in with the iraq invasion. and so yes, indeed, it was the girl who um, to the base is out to the 1960s. and they took the different ones out from the, uh, political, the military of united military come on. uh, but of course it was a sad cause a who in the late 20 tends to crowns back in and across, pursued that,

you know, because they have planned to says policy. um, so the key point is that contrasting to this atlanta system, which leads to does empowerment to western europe. we know we're, a lot of us have been putting forward. and the goal is tied to is the idea is that, you know, 10 continental unity. this is an idea of the goal. it was an idea of gorbachev of coast which when a lone star perestroika the common european home. and it was not difficult for me to and, and this to, you know, individually a type of goal is in, which says, you know, europe should take control of its own destiny. and we're talking about your own away from lisbon to reverse talk. and that's the only way in which we can begin to frame some sort of new piece of security older. i suppose you are being 1000 and say, oh, but we all, we just happen to be in support of the us war and rush or through ukraine. it's actually a european war that your of is involved in. i mean,

the rush are obviously claims that it intervene after it was clear, the nature of back genocide was occurring in, in going bags or on the cards of to so many people are dead being killed after the made and cool. why is it then that other regions haven't changed as much the arrow boiled, say, with gaza? why do other regions don't go to war? the way rush it goes toward to protect what it sees? is it speakers or a community? yeah, i mean, what do you use the word genocide, i think that there's used on all sides perhaps to, to flip unclear too likely because genocide is obviously uh, you know, catastrophic attempt to eliminate people again. but i was in the i here in the middle east and his id is being used by important uh, uh, normal line groups is a wide variety of an ethnic population in gaza. obviously, we're certainly seeing a catastrophic attack against the whole people. absolutely. and of course on under

different social scale, we had that in um, not just a new thing. we've seen it to the failure to incorporate national communities in latvia into sonya. in the middle east. of course, we've come to the culmination of what is being 70, which is if not far longer, for failure to establish a framework for different point it has to live together. and when you say i'm an investor, i tax yes and no to justified or condemn it. it's clearly, it was a failure of that you're gonna pay and security older to find it comes to a place where, gosh, i'm barely gosh, i know those in the post cold war framework, which led to a, an intensifying security dynamic which led to the conflict which in between now and do, i mean, i don't know how much cold of the, i mean the question there actually with, why is it the arab will, doesn't react the way russia acts all we expect china to act when the south china

sea becomes the, the subject of more intervention by nature forces as well. the, i mean there is no leading power. china. yes, of course a nuclear power is in the middle east where they have a series of contending contending power as well. it is astonishing because is the way that recent events, i really totally changed a, again, political framework. we're seeing already china intervening to achieve some sort of a personal opportunity. go on inside yoga. we're seeing all the state so far off the gulf elsewhere repudiating. you know, not, i mean, not formally yet, the i the codes and the whole thing work a piece. and i think the off to this contract and i hope it will come as soon as possible. the whole chessboard has to use vision system has been up turned and we really have to go back to basics us. but when the close, every power has j has filed and we now need both the pin continent and in what we now called southwest asia. how you thinking of security and holding your framework

within the framework of the united nations to might be charged a system, as i argue in the, in the book really work the way should during this the only framework we have to achieve some sort of feeling good for peace and development. yeah, i mean, obviously there's a lot of doubts about that given how violent a year it's beam. but then how do you actually for see the nature of the collapse of your european power? i suppose one could say that it's already going to an extent, but as the economy's collapse, you expect them to become states of the united states or the public. so west and you're going to rebel that we're going to witness some kind of rebellion by the masses. in west and your against that lead is, you know, i think that's exaggerated. clearly western europe has been marginalized here politically. it has been suffering economically. and it's also

a crisis of political representation in terms of effective in terms of the guys of various so called popular movements. we're really seeing the election results and slipped back here not long ago. and of course, i'm very stands firm in his view that as well as you can, more is, was quite clearly avoidable. and she does, we must go to some sort of pace framework as soon as possible. but no yoga up is monitoring last the decision making is in washington. and we have to wait for washington to resolve issues. nicole is, is there an election coming up? and so therefore, you know, there's a whole stack of, you know, to any lines meeting in 2024 a might be a total of $24.00. it's going to be a fundamentally decisive year in southwest southwest asia, in your opinion, politics and the whole town come to the other. paying and atlanta says context. i mean, some people, uh, you're going to raised some eyebrows and aging with your mention of the human rights in amongst the we goes, people can watch our interview with

a week or activist. it's quite a quite eye opening. i'd say. do you think we're going to see the end of a bridge issue or being union nation united states, webinar, ization of human rights to attack these rising powers that you described in your book as well? i mean, human rights isn't, i mean it's a, it's a fundamental issue if it's fair and in terms of human dignity and development. and of course, it has been recognized and i think i'm pulling this doesn't mean to say that the issue, the substantive issue does it parents? and of course, i think everyone at this stage has to stop thinking on how to move away from this endless cold war style, militarism which i condemn in the book and suggests that you know that there is a feeling what goods. it's extraordinary given the enormous technological, another achievements of our time. and of course, well faced with, uh, you know, the major issue of artificial intelligence coming up on the hood, guys and get a big time which could change social relations and have to be

a fundamental kind of to. and yet wisdom my, i didn't these endless new guess it was tragic the but we need to list our eyes to launch and wider how guys and in which china isn't portray it doesn't. and then a, i mean we've all got little have started to do it, but we can now excel that, given the visits of the british prime minister in the u. s. president to the middle east. it is okay to slaughter children based on their ethnicity as a means of self defense that is within the ambridge of human rights, as described by london, washington, and brussels football. and i mean, my view very action is be totally, not a good yes style, appealing side has to be with an international norms yet i put absolutely no effective pressure on this, you know, just stop slow to and, you know, i personally think it's, you know, absolutely disgraceful,

we can condemn and i do in the strongest possible terms, the evidence. so certainly i must attack on the 7th of october, yet through responses disproportionate. and of course, it's certainly the coming when a one person does to justify the killing of 10. and the response is absolutely unacceptable in my view, within the charts international system, as indeed the general secretary of the united nations. antonia gutierrez, i, i gone on it. professor richards are great, i'll stop you. the more from the author, the new book, the last piece. how the west failed to prevent a 2nd. gold will after this, right. the, it's amazing. what can happen over the course of a few months, not long ago buying was in static,

the us with back you great. as long as it takes. no, it is as long as we can. what happened? no doubt, the regime and 2 is taken down. known in vietnam as the american war, the vietnam war lost it for almost 2 decades and dragged in numerous countries. not any time between now and then you don't see it now. why did all i'm empty? hundreds of thousands of american troops was sent to the country to bank the south vietnamese on me and the american soldiers murdered resistors. most of the slaves burned down entire villages and spread dangerous chemicals, and even lee laid up day by all right. did the americans ever

fully acknowledge what they did on the vietnamese veterans ready to forgive? yeah, yeah, yeah, that's a way to the welcome back to going underground. i'm still here with the authors, a new book, the last piece. how the west failed to prevent a 2nd cold war professor richard sackler. richard. sorry to have cut you off there in the and about one, but uh you were talking of course about garza. so what would you say then, given what you were saying about? obviously antonio gutierrez, agreed general, going into the middle east events surrounding what happened this year. that more so than iraq, afghanistan, libya, syria, ukraine, you guys, uh, uh, put the name in the coffin,

the video in charge as regards the human rights given as i was saying that it seemed that the major powers were okay with slaughter of children based on if history, you know, i can say why you say that, but i think the opposite. it just shows just how important the united nations is. and even it's really for a cause. cost is fundamentally too critical to, to sustaining whatever sort of normal life the food distribution is. available and of course, see nothing nations has been paralyzed. that hasn't been a security council resolution, but uh, the 5 years or the base of human rights. and then data international law doesn't mean to say that international law or united nations should be abandoned. there's nothing, there's no alternative. if we don't to support the international system established in 1945. however, paul is what? we have nothing else in its place. and then we're close. we really hit an international energy of it even worse than what we have at the moment. okay. well,

if we see in the global, disgusted to have the weaponized ation of human rights, what about the weaponized ation of money transfer? you're talking the bulk of the end of the swift money transfer system. of course we saw the ukraine conflict lead to a attempt by nature bowers to cut rusher off from international finance. what's your understanding of what we're going to see quite shortly about that subject. so it's quite clear that the i'm, the big summit in china is, but that's a bit ago. gotcha. india, china, south africa alignment was talking quite clearly about the emerging sofa tentative payment systems. and of course, the coupling away from the western financial institutions is accelerating. be, we've seen the new development bank based in shanghai or the bricks new development bank is becoming an alternative to the breast and would system i m f, world bank. so we wouldn't be seeing a mess if the coupling and emergence of to the flea. uh, you know,

a quote powerful alignment. i'm an old coast, the big scoop and i had 6 new members who are formerly joining in january. so we're witnessing tech toner, changes and international politics. this is some of the issues you're paying said when he visited moscow earlier this year. and it's certainly the case and they're both completed it on several occasions since then. so we're left away. we're witnessing and living to a time a change of paradigms and change of system that we have not seen before was i system that's mistake when witnessing change balance and international politics. we've in the international system established in 1945 and that kind of escaped the attention of us corporate lead is, is we talked about european decline. what do you think of the idea of it's some of your opinion, while european businesses decline and some of them obviously do do embrace. so what you were talking about the united states businesses and we saw the boss of apple in

badging. them install. thoughts of rhetoric coming from washington about china, the us corporate power, which is known all around the world for its power over us politicians learn anything else, actually embracing the new order that you speak of. whilst a western europe declines in the united states has brought into this new world order, you a, in a more peaceful world, or will be with this sort of, for your request in europe, in the, in ruins. a good. yep. so they've got to point out this pay adults as the united states should never be underestimated and its ability to reinvent itself and because of a normally dynamic economy and society, which i mean it puts even more in the shade. the fact that you're paying leaders in fuel to an external power to themselves. i know because i'm willing to sacrifice the economic interest for what in my view, it was a misc on, say, a vision,

an attempt to, you know, consolidate the atlantic power system against russia and it's alignment. and the front line obviously has been for many years that you can, so it's uh, you know, yep. so the guy that i think that the, the economics i'm moving on international to work on is moving on and leaving western europe marginalized. or is it a reinvention too far? and we can expect that the united states really does engage in a whole war with, with china as they have, according to roger with roger over ukraine and the are, will the ballast and well, we saw that the jump in trade hall was then continued and intensified by bite and of course we were actually in united states next year. so everything could well the whole pack of cards could be filled up in the year. and it could full an unexpected impressions. i think as i said, 2024 is good elections in european parliament. it's got to elections in india and

other places. so it's a year in which a lot of the patents of the future will finally begin to take shape. i mean, i know that south africa is the same breaks, but do you think latin america or in africa to an extent, a lot large parts of it have to wait for the death of the dollar before they truly emerge out of this old order. the close of b as a business sale, as well as, as if you have that, uh no take, no needs to wait. it's uh, the main important turn of clothes and all of this. i just hope that some way can be found to avoid this, you know, finding a apple collected conflict, which of course, a lot of people are talking about. and that in some ways they're all wise a heads. so it's hard to find where a mistake and did i did i say i just thought i would have to even can you guys, you know? yeah, i know it's very hard to well, i don't know. trump is the favorite to win in 2024. and his views on china right

there. yes. yeah. no, it's, uh, yeah, i mean it's extraordinary. but because one of those, what number 2 would be compared to is 1st the leadership because clearly he was working on the endless pressure of investigate with all sorts of other concerns. while i wanted to, because you know, trump is clearly a magic leader. but some of his ideas, for example, it makes sense to get on with russia, was a sensible idea and you know, he's pretty good if he'd be leader, we wouldn't be having this. well, i'd have one to 2 that you to, to which ultimately he may come to terms with china because he was thinking, computer and economic terms. my time slot, but can't list terms. but you know, by doing has made it ideological. i was to him present transactional leader who knows what, what he may come up with. i mean, clearly, as

a power of propaganda and all these issues, if they don't read your book, just briefly, what do you think of the security of the united states as other defacto colonies? south korea, japan, the philippines. what happens to these countries as these, this world changes, or yes, you will send an intensification and of the us to line system. certainly with japan saying the guys of china we're seeing those are soft, clear, which is trying to maintain a certain distance here. if it was willing to supply shelves to, to, to you can, of course they also have elections in the, at the moment that in a particularly a phase which is pro uh, washington very strongly so. but uh, there is a strong movements within soft, clear. but, you know, we've seen, i'll cross this alliance with this julia, i know close on the other side and type them in the line. sound you a good idea? i know because you are both joining the bricks or shanghai co creation organization may spend. india of course, plays

a very important part in all of this. so we're seeing no global. yeah. alignment on the scale we're having to say we haven't seen the realignment heavily in those countries. i've created japan and the philippines, and they're pretty important as i have intensified guidelines for the united states . so they're going to lose in the they can always uh, but who knows, who knows who, who's going to wind up context waiting for an epa code contest a 2nd to coldwell, which is 4, was far more intense and will be found out how to overcome in the 1st coldwell, i'm afraid, was we looked into that for the next generation or so. and how successful do you think washington control tends to champagne countries align with washington will continue to be, i mean, presumably using not just print media and television, but obviously the internet as well. we've seen the matcher being used in that way. another big tech companies, will they successfully stump populations across you as well as those dates from understanding the world of you right about in this book?

yeah, yeah, that's another important point is that a cold was accompanied by massive communicative welfare and cooper band. and they, especially given the fact social media now is being, you know, policed and i'm, i'm build cost as, as you well know. i'd taken off for the, of the a in certain countries. indeed. and of course, this is an intensification of propaganda and informational boyfriend on the other side as well. so this is when they get tragedies of hard time when really we need political dialogue, we need informed debate on all sides is being closed down. well, i think breaks congress is saying they're freeing up their media and not the, and doing, doing the opposite. i mean, what happens then as to how say the european union in britain will qual, internal descent as economically these countries. obviously perform

was in the budgeting, new global economy, of alliances, and joe, political uh, the entrepreneurial money exchange to the, in this cold pool. the societal progression is, is, is quite tough from the closing offer of attentive media channels. and because as you sound the global level of russian tea, of course, plays and important button, chinese media and indian media to provide that diversity of use which is uh, being limited in some of the hotlines of, of the political west. but yep, i mean it's, it's, i, i fear that especially if things go even worse in southwest asia, and garza didn't your thing then uh we, we could see some very nasty, unpleasant impression in a in western yoga by the united states. i mean, i'm just thinking about poverty in britain. we know the increasing properties is x

a in the country are speaking to me from, i mean will they just have to be grades or budgets on policing as the economy is a decline, as well at the moment, all as i say is uh on hold because we've got an election coming up within the next year. uh, and it looks as if uh, you know, the alternative labor policy is in poll position. you've seen this in local by elections. but of course, i know i, i think that the united kingdom has suffered from the crisis of bad governance for generations, labor and conservative. and there's a, you know, the, the, the sources of your new, it's nothing tiny klegg. how used to be treated unions stretch movement space movements as a political movements. and at the moment there seems to be a total stagnation in ideas of how to make puts in a better society is use i mode just society and indeed a better govern society. and that's desperately something that we need for resurrection sacrifice. thank you. and that the new book, the last piece,

how the west failed to revenge as i can go drawers out. now that's it for the show . remember, we're bringing you brand new episodes every sunday and monday until then. you can keep in touch by the social media or if it's not sense of deal country and had to a channel going on, the run tv on normal, don't come to us. and even though the episodes of going underground season the, by the middle of the 19th century, practically the whole of india had been under the rule of the british and by the colonial authorities that imposed that heavy depth. bringing the people into poverty. exporting natural resources, and moreover,

these authorities absolutely had no consideration for the physicians of the local population, treating them like 2nd class citizens. the british were showing signs of this respect even to those and cooperated with them. the facts of ignoring the religious believes of the hindus led them you may have, as the voice, mercenary soldiers serving under the british crown. 3000000000 began on the 10th of may 1857 in the garrison town of may river, north of india. the form of youth, the rebels quickly took over daily, that he rode resistance of the indian people lasted for one and a half years. however, the forces were not in. the colonial authorities dealt with the rebels, cruel, late fee and slaves. the boys were tied to the mouth of the cannon and were shot right through their bodies for the amusement of the public. these type of execution was called the devil's with the obliteration of the mutiny resolved the death of 800000 inhabitants of the indians. however,

the british empire never broke the free spirit of the indians and their will, will resist the eastern plan organize it is now being carried out according to the technologies, principles, and schemes of the so called might on revolution. russia is about the soviet says president alexander, to vote church has proof that the overnight protests and valid great will orchestrated by the west officials 12 comparisons with the 2014 and might. on qu, we new crate authority say at least 70 people are killed and that is right, a strike on a refugee camp in central gaza. the palestinian red crescent society saying the destruction and political and the region is on presidents. there is no state for police and guards. the and every public opinion has evacuated already port or.