171945. the declaration of independence of indonesia, a former judge colony was proclaimed the liberation movement westlake by the national hero of the in did these people sweep gardens, however, amsterdam had its own plan, which was to defeat the revolution. moreover, they were supported by great britain. the colonial troops setup control over the main cities in the country, but the countryside remained in the hands of the rebels and the resistance continued growing. in 1946, the british left indonesia, whereas the dutch did not want to lose power and switch to the tactics of total terror. in december 1947, the royal troops committed a massacre of the inhabitants in the village of robert got a 431 civilians were killed. all in all the lives of 100000 indian agents were on the conscience of the dutch colonialists and their allies, mass executions, and regular bombing did not help the netherlands. their troops got blocked in the

cities, the world community demanded to put it into violence. and the empire started in negotiations. in 1949, the hag round table conference was held in the kingdom of the netherlands was forced to recognize the independence of it in egypt. a sovereign muslim state appeared on the world map and became one of the most powerful countries in the islamic world. we've told you in the past about the u. s. department of veterans affairs, it's an enormous sprawling bureaucracy and is one of the most poorly run departments in the entire us government investigators. they are deal on a daily basis with things like fraud, investment, drug crimes and other white color issues. but imagine going to work one day and learning that you're not needed to investigate these routine white collar crimes. instead, you're needed to investigate a serial killer and even worse,

a medical serial killer assessed to a passive works under color of helping patients. as a medical professional, a doctor or a nurse. i'm john kerry onto welcome to the whistle blowers the . 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 our next guest is that rare person who has seen the darkest part of the underbelly of society. ru sacrament is a renowned investigator specializing and tracking down medical serial killers and his in demand as a consultant on the subject all over the world. he's a former special agent in charge of the ne field office of the criminal investigations division in the us department of veterans affairs office of the inspector general, where he was responsible for criminal investigations into a 195 veterans affairs facilities. he's a licensed private investigator and is the president of the society of professional

investigators in addition to his professional credentials, he is the co author of the highly acclaimed book behind the murder curtain, special agent, bruce sacrament, hans doctors and nurses who kill our veterans, bruce sacrament, welcome to the show. we are so happy to have you. ok, thank you very much. i'm actually honored to be here today while the pleasures online. i've been looking forward to this for a long time. i have to tell you this conversation is, is going to be fascinating for me personally. there are probably fewer than a dozen people in the united states who have had a career focused on serial killers and even fewer who have focused on medical serial killers. before we get to that specialization, tell us a little bit about your career and about how you got started in investigations. sure, well i, i saw an investigation of the probably by watching too many colombo. now i'm not

seeing a big, tough, dirty harry kind of guy, but i used to watch columbia and i so you know, i could do that. this guy is more brains than braun and i really like that. so i started out as an investigator with the u. s department of defense and i was investigating contract for oil and procurement for a line and it was pretty interesting. and then jimmy carter way back when began offices of inspector general's in every federal agency. so every page of federal agency that time. and now just about every agency has an office of inspector general, and most offices of inspector general, all kind of torn to different directions. one is in the office of the what it and one is an office of criminal investigations. i was responsible for the office of the criminal investigations for the ne united states. and i had

a tremendous smorgasbord if you will, of cases to pick and choose from. because hospitals well hospitalized big cities and any kind of crime that could occur in a big city could almost kind of happened in the hospital. you know, we had procurement for or contract for what we had drug diversion. think of all the narcotics that are in the hospital. i mean we have the most complex scientific equipment to inexpensive items like diapers and everything in between. and we have with very, very concerned about medical records about the security and medical records. so running the hospital is a very, very complex job and unfortunately is a big opportunity for some criminal activity. now what the v a, i must preface my remarks by saying that the old will well bring majority of the am

for the most honest, hard working, dedicated compassionate people you ever want to meet? absolutely, yes, no, that being said, there is a very, very tiny percentage of people that will take advantage of the system. and unfortunately they have victims on nations, fewer roads, and that's really low. so i was really honored in 2 respects. i was on it to be in federal law enforcement. and i was honored to have a position that worked out for veterans that actually helped us secure safety and security and the best health possible for our nation's heroes. it was a wonderful, wonderful position to be. and you had a long career at the department of veterans affairs. tell us about the case that made you an expert on medical serial killers. i have to assume that somebody

doesn't just wake up one day and decide to start killing people. they operate on detected sometimes for many years and we're talking about doctors and nurses here. how did this all begin in that big case? well, you know, i'm working all these other cases are they just described and all in one day my phone rings and i get a call from the chief of psychiatry at the north for the long island v. a medical center and she says, bruce, oh, you're not gonna believe this, but we have a doctor working here who spent time in prison, to poisoning his coworkers. and i'm looking at the phone and i'm from looking at my calendar. it says this april 1st is this, like some kind of april fools, a joke or something, you know? and she says, no, bruce, this is really true. now what? i didn't think in the united states of america, you could spend time in prison for poisoning people and come out and be

a physician. so i was wrong and natural. it started the story of a dr. michael swain. now. you know, to michel schmilo, killed people, not only united states, he told people with the world. do you know when he was in medical school, john, when he was in medical school, he was known as double also wine. go license to kill all my gosh. twice fellow students in medical school and then to the dean and they said, you know, the, we know think these guys, when bill should really be a physician and the dean said, what do you know your only students on the dean. i think he could be a doctor, but i think he needs more training. so let's keep him for about 6 months longer. right. next thing, you know, he ones up in ohio state university and he's killing people. and he winds up being in m e n t, and he actually poisoned his co workers,

invited his co workers and he said, hey guys, you know, you work so hard, have some donuts in the donuts and they all got sick that night and he calls them up he says, tell me, will you symptoms tell me everything that happens? he's re losing the excitement of poisoning people. not only when he actually put the boys in on these donuts, but hearing how they suffered. hm. and it turns out that the donuts were actually sprinkled with loss, and they called me saying that these in teams are not stupid. about 2 weeks later it comes in with some ice tea and they have the ice t test it. and it's loaded with austin. it wow, and the police did a fantastic job and he gets 3 years in jail for boys and his co. ready workers and then he comes out and he's a doctor again. it to be a lot. it seems impossible. how can anybody pass a government background investigation and have your license?

yeah. and have your license reinstated? yes. well i'll tell you this, this guy. it's an incredible sociopath, you know, he will, he was an excellent read and he got out of prison. and he gave the store, he says, you know, i'm an ex marine, i gotta find, i got an a bottle and the roll. but here's a piece of paper from the governor, restoring my civil rights. nobody checked it, nobody verified it. and the next thing, you know, the guy is a doctor again, this time out in the west coast. and it'd be a facility and he's doing well. he's actually engage to be a nurse. and then the story comes out and uh, everything was terrible for him and his fiance and his fiance, her name was kristen kenny does a beautiful, beautiful young lady. and she goes home to mom and she says, you know, mom, i really loved this guy. swining go,

but i can't live with them anymore after i heard what happened. you know, but when i was living with him, i was getting all these headaches for some reason, headaches. but i, i feel better now. and the next thing, you know, swank book shows up at the door. and he so charming the charms is way back into hawaii. and about 2 months later, she can't take it anymore again and she goes to the park. she takes out a gun and to blows or brains out of my going to go for that can. you will actually you can because even though she shot her sale and the family had the body cremated, they kept a lock of hair. and her head was loaded with austin if you don't mind go was even poisoning his own fiance. what will make a long story short, he actually lot winds up in my neighborhood at the northwood long island, b a medical center and you know, something interesting. he was there on a residency any guess what,

what particular medical field in psychiatry that he had to go in front of a board of trying psychiatry. and can you this each and every one of them that he should be in the program. and he grad, incredible. and then that's when i got that phone call that sort of each i likes, and i happened because one of my agents and i go down to visit him. now let me tell you this guy look like a movie. saw this got off the golf course. we're on these ada saw sunglasses, you know, cells in john, if i didn't know better, i'd want to introduce them to my own daughter. yeah. right. these are the next marine doctor, right. you know, spending on nation zeros, i'd say come on, the i says why go join the family? wow. if i didn't know that well, so he's given me the same bar withdrawal story and role. and then when i started challenging him, he's not so charming. you know,

so want to talk in the next thing. you know, he leaves the country where he's the country. he goes to zimbabwe africa when he uses in, obviously africa. because it's such a shortage of physicians, there he's killing women and children and pregnant women, my god. and they have an arrest warrant say him, but he returns the united states because he had to renew his passport. this boy went on yet to another country. and we arrested him, but not to murder because we didn't have any evidence that he murdered anybody at all. here we were sent him for every several ages. they re crime line to the government. he said lie or it's of the government. if you want to a federal agent, you're guilty of a felony. that's right. and 3 years in jail, full line through the government. so that gave us a window of opportunity, a window of 3 years. the trying to prove that he murdered any of our nation's

heroes at the north port va medical center. and that's what started me on, on that particular journey. let me ask you to why is it so difficult to think for medical professionals to be able to spot a colleague who, who can kill in a hospital environment. medical professionals, of course, are supposed to 1st do no harm. is it, is that it, that they're supposed to be hillers, and not killers. so people generally don't suspect their colleagues of these terrible crimes. it will look if you are so inclined to commit a number is what perfection and what location might you choose? right? tape, you might choose a profession that kind of gives you the legal power of life and death over an individual. what professions do we know how that, you know, you, you might want to take a profession where people take, you know,

have dedicated themselves to saving lives. so who is going to believe that in this wonderful universe of compassionate people who have dedicated themselves to saving lives, these going to be someone hiding in that group. let's actually taking lies. it's almost impossible to believe. i mean, all your co workers have dedicated themselves to saving people. you see miracles performed almost every day in the hospital. and to believe that somebody is intentionally murdering people. is very, very difficult. you know, it's very difficult for the fireman to believe that one of his co workers is actually starting fine. that's right, right. it's the same thing here. it's the universe of such dedicated professional people that no one wants to bully. i don't want to be a co worker would be intentionally taking lots and i can understand that i could

say we are speaking with an investigator and author, bruce sacrament, about his investigations, into medical serial killers. we have to take a short break, but you're not going to want to miss the 2nd half of this conversation. stay tuned . we'll be right back. 2 the

the, the . 2 welcome back to the whistle blowers. i'm john to reaku. we are speaking with renowned investigator and

author, bruce sacrament, about his work tracking down medical serial killers, those medical professionals who become self murderers. welcome back again, bruce. glad to have you. thank you, bruce to tell us a little bit about motivation, the average serial killer when when one thinks about john wayne gacy or gary allan ridge way or dentist reader is associated path or a. psycho path becomes more and more bold, often even taunting the police. but that's not the case with medical serial killers, visit. tell us about their motivation. what leads them to do it? you know, i'll tell you what i've seen over the years. um, not a psychiatrist or a psychologist, but this is when i put in this, i would say the number one. the number one reason that i've seen is something called munchausen syndrome by proxy right now. much as an central and black proxy is, is often displayed when a mother will maybe intentionally harm

a child and bring that child into the hospital. show the staff what a clearing dedicated, outstanding parent they are and is trying to be so compassionate, please help my child and they want the staff to give them understanding and compassion. well in some strange way. this is the same thing with medical c, o kills. you think about medical serial killers when you look at their evaluations? good. okay. nurses. okay. doctors. except when it comes to code and a co, ryan mean an emergency, a cold blue. and when you read the evaluations, you will see that big in an outstanding when it comes to code one of my medical serial killers. kristin gilbert, the doctors would say, you know, if i ever cody, i will increase the deal that there she starts barking or is it the young mean change was scanned out of her mind. she case control, she's

a hero. she's outstanding. why? this is one of these people want because to well feel like they will kind of put aside and they need get the attention that they. ready want it right, the one there who can sit there was considering more zeros and heroes. now, son and this is an opportunity for them to get the attention that they never had before. and now they don't care about the victims. it's just an end to the means. they care about the attention that comes to them and that i've seen throughout the world is perhaps the number one reason. it's not exclusively, some people likes wind o. i just loved the power of life and death. nasa, your power there over the summer. what incredible high for him. you know, wanting incredible turn on that he could that like on that he had the power of life and death and, and that's also calm. but there are

a few other reasons. sometimes is a case on going in texas. now we're a doctor is just pissed off at management and his co workers and he says, you know, i'm the best doctor here. he's or they can even compare it to me and you know what they did to me. they took away some of my privileges, they reduced my office, they cut my money back, i will show them, i'll show them a patient started going unexpectedly. then realize how important i am and they will come back to me. my god. yeah, are you pretty sure that those are some of the most common reasons that i've seen throughout the world back this is be able to walk 2 or 3 years ago. i entertain the idea of writing a book about serial killers. i've written 8 non fish, non fiction books, i thought it would be kind of a fun departure. and i especially wanted to talk about their motivation and what made them so bold before they were finally caught. so i wrote letters to 8 or 9

serial killers who were in prison, including some of the most famous names, many of them, including gary alan ridgeway the green river killer, the b t k killer son of sam tex watson from the manson family. they actually answered me, but their answers were all the same. they said they found jesus in prison, jesus had forgiven them. jesus was, was saving their lives, they were living their lives for jesus, etc, etc. ridgeway even sent me. it was a big package. it had 50 religious pamphlets in it, and he asked me to distribute these pamphlets around my neighborhood. so of course, i threw, i threw them away. but my image, your conclusion was that, that there manipulative behavior continues in prison all these years later that, that this manipulative personality is what keeps them going. they think it's going

to get them something to, at least profess to be christian, for example. so my question is, is that also common among the serial killers once they've been caught? and if it is, how are they able to, to cover it up for so long as they build their medical careers? or well, i guess it's sort of a 2 point questions on the 1st bar evolving. oh, once, once they are incarcerated. well, many of them will decline to speed because there are additional murders out there. god. right. and they tried and convicted and even received the death penalty depending on where it occurred. so they're not going to do anything else, right? because when we suspect these medical serial killers are killing 36, the a 100 people often we don't have the proof on hand that they killed that many people

cry. you know, we have narrow it down to the very, very best cases that there are and pursue those cases. but they know they know there are other victims out there. and we should be able to prove yet another them, especially with some of lead that they gave us, they could be retry, prosecuted and possibly even executed. so they're not going to say anything at all about that. all right, and you know it's something interesting because when the whistle blow was in the case of christ and gilbert, this is a real example of whistle blowers that had floyd backgrounds and you know, um some of them had a substance abuse problems and other personal problems and they knew this was gonna all come out. but they had incredible coverage to come for us and tell us what had happened. well, what do you think happened after the trial? so quiz thing,

gilbert. who were your legs killed about 30 or by nations. heroes at north hampton b, a medical center in massachusetts. she goes to trial and she's found guilty and the whistle blows with just tremendous. we wouldn't know that if it wasn't for themselves. so when they return to work, do you think that the agree it is he will say, oh no. just the opposite. uh, just the opposite because you'd say what the hell did you do to us? now when people drive by the hospital, they don't say, call this the hospital, let's say if my dad, that's the hospital, it does wonderful science. know basic, that's the hospital with the medical serial killer work. and why did you have to do that? you room for all of us, you room, the reputation. not. thank you for getting rid of the murder that they never, ever all day heard was criticism from the a coworkers. why did you call these fact the general?

why did you believe bring the police in here? why did you bring all of his bad publicity to us while genetically triple bruce, tell us where people can learn more about the work that you do and about your book? sure, well the website is same as the name of the work behind the murder cars dot com. it details all the stories of medical serial killers inside the b a that i personally investigated, including doctors wango and kristin gilbert and others, including a, a physician in albany that old and medical records to put the veterans into research studies. they should have never been ended and they were murdered. i mean, they're really some incredible stories in that book. and also, you know, there's a, there's a television show out there. cool. um, what's it called very scary people. yes, thank you very scary. p h o n,

and it has 2 hours on swine go. yes, but i like to find people to um, to read the book, to go to the website, to e mail me. i get emails all the time from veterans and non veterans and people who have been victimized by this. and, you know, and so one thing we have to mention here is a whole human side to this john, you know, we talk about the statistics in the message, but these are human opinions we're talking about for the family search our show. so could you imagine, do i mean if i, if i rang your doorbell one day and i said, excuse me, sir, you know, my name is bruce saffron. and i'm from the, the a. and we have reason to believe that your father's death was of a suspicious nature. can i go to the cemetery and dw nadia runs asked me, could you imagine your visit like that? could you imagine sitting in

a court room and hearing all this evidence of how your father was murdered and a v a hospital asked that he spent his entire life? yeah, same thing, america reads right military, the movie, the hassle. imagine the humans under these, how you would see a and sometimes when we talk about this to 6, how many memories and the techniques and all that. we forget to mention the human side of the families and the families have always been just amazing for me. just fantastic. fantastic. well, thank you so much for spending this time with us. this was fascinating and we were very happy to have you. so i wanna thank bruce for joining us and for sharing his fast ending experiences. and thanks to our viewers for watching the author, bret easton, ellis, one said, quote, it strikes me profoundly that the world is more often than not a bad and cruel place and quote, in many cases, i'm sorry to say that's true. but we're fortunate to have people like bruce hackman

out there doing the right thing. i'm john kerry echo, thanks for watching the whistle blowers until next time. 2 2 the more expensive and i'm here to plan with you, whatever you do, do not watch my new show search like why watch something that's so different whitelisted opinions that he won't get anywhere else with plans or do you have the state department? the c, i a weapons, bankers, multi $1000000000.00 corporations. choose your facts for you. go ahead, change and whatever you do. don't marshall stay main street because i'm probably going to make you comfortable. my show is called direction. but again,

it's not. we don't want to watch it because it might just change the way you the ukranian sheylan hit the residential building in belgrade in central russia, killing one person, and the injury and 4. so that for could take legal action against israel at the u. n's international court of justice in the hey, get charges as well with violating the genocide convention during the war and gaza . the you are that use of israel, of attacking the human cherry and convoy following a route mapped out by tel aviv a safe region faces a crisis up on thinkable human suffering and fold inside the russian miss out and tragic. s space after flying across the ukranian border which fails to provide any evidence to support the claimed the.