vision in the us department of veterans affairs office of the inspector general, where he was responsible for criminal investigations into a 195 veterans affairs facilities. he's a licensed private investigator and is the president of the society of professional investigators. in addition to his professional credentials, he's the co author of the highly acclaimed book behind the murder curtain. special agent, bruce, sacrament, hunts doctors, and nurses who kill our veterans. bruce sacrament. welcome to the show. we are so happy to have you. ok, thank you very much. i'm actually honored to be here today. well, the pleasures online. i've been looking forward to this for a long time. i have to tell you this conversation is, is going to be fascinating for me personally. there are probably fewer than a dozen people in the united states who have had a career focused on serial killers and even fewer who have focused on medical serial killers. before we get to that specialization, tell us

a little bit about your career and about how you got started in investigations. sure, well, um, i started investigations probably by watching too many colombo show you now. i'm not seeing a big, tough, dirty, harry kind of guy, but i used to watch columbia and i so you know, i could do that. this guy is more brings in braun and i really like that. so i started out as an investigator with the us department of defense and i was investigating contract fraud and procurement for a line. and it was pretty interesting. and then jimmy carter way back when began offices of inspector general's in every federal agency. so every page of federal agency at that time and now just about every agency has an office of inspector general and most offices of inspector general all kind of torn to

different directions. one is in the office of the one it and one is an office of criminal investigations. i was responsible for the office of the criminal investigations for the ne united states. and i had a tremendous smorgasbord if you will, of cases to pick and choose from. because hospitals well hospitalized big cities and any kind of crime that could occur in a big city could almost kind of happened in the hospital. you know, we had procurement for or contract for what we had drug diversion. think of all the narcotics that are in the hospital. i mean we have the most complex scientific equipment to inexpensive items like diapers and everything in between. and we have with very, very concerned about medical records about the security and medical records. so running the hospital is a very, very complex job, and unfortunately the is

a big opportunity for some criminal activity. now what the v a, i must preface my remarks by saying that the old oh well ring majority of the am for the most honest, hard working, dedicated compassion of people you ever want to meet? absolutely. yes, no, that being said, we have a very, very tiny percentage of people that will take advantage of the system. and unfortunately they have victims on nations few roads. and that's really so i was really on it in 2 states. i was on it to be in federal law enforcement. and i was honored to have a position that worked out for veterans that actually helped us secure safety and security and the best health possible for our

nation's heroes. it was a wonderful, wonderful position to be. and you had a long career at the department of veterans affairs. tell us about the case that made you an expert on medical serial killers. i have to assume that somebody doesn't just wake up one day and decide to start killing people. they operate on detected sometimes for many years and we're talking about doctors and nurses here. how did this all begin in that big case? well, you know, i'm working all these other cases that i just described. and all in one day, my phone rings, and i get a call from the chief of psychiatry at the northwood long island, b a medical center. and she says, bruce, oh, you're not gonna believe this. but we have a doctor working here who spent time in prison, to poisoning these co workers. and i'm looking at the phone and i'm from looking at

my calendar as is this april 1st is this like some kind of april fools, a joke or something. you know, and she says, no, bruce, this is really true. now what? i didn't think in the united states of america, you could spend time in prison for poisoning people and come out and be a physician. so i was rock and natural. it started the story of a dr. michael swain. go, you know, to michel schmilo, killed people, not only united states. he told people with the world. do you know when he was in medical school, john, when he was in medical school, he was known as double swine. go license to kill all my gosh, twice fellow students in medical school and then to the dean. and they said, you know, the, we don't think these guys wine bill should really be a physician. and the dean said, what do you know your only students on the dean. i think he could be a doctor, but i think he needs more training. so let's keep him for about 6 months longer.

right. and the next thing, you know, he winds up in ohio state university and he's killing people. and he winds up being in m e n t, and he actually poisoned his co workers, invited his co workers and he said, hey guys, you know, you work so hard at some donuts in the donuts and they all got sick that night and he closed them up he says, tell me, will you symptoms tell me everything that happens? he's re losing the excitement of poisoning people. not only when he actually put the boys in on these donuts, but hearing how they suffered. hm. and it turns out that the donuts were actually sprinkled with loss, and they called me saying that these e and t 's are not stupid. about 2 weeks later it comes in with some ice t and they have the ice t test it. and it's loaded with austin. wow. and the police did a fantastic job and he gets 3 years in jail for boys and his co workers. and then

he comes out and he's a doctor again. it to be a lot. it seems impossible. how can anybody pass a government background investigation and have your license? yeah. and have your license reinstated? yes. well, i'll tell you this, this guy. it's an incredible sociopath. you know, he was, he wasn't excellent reading the guy out of prison. and he gave the store, he says, you know, i'm an ex lorraine, i got to find, i got an, a bar on the roll. but here's a piece of paper from the governor, restoring my civil rights, nobody checked it, nobody verified it. and the next thing, you know, the guy is a doctor again, this time out in the west coast. and it'd be a facility and he's doing well. he's actually engage to be a nurse. and then the story comes out and uh, everything was terrible for him. and his fiance and his fiance,

her name was kristen kenny does a beautiful, beautiful young lady. and she goes home to mom and she says, you know, mom, i really loved this guy. swining go, but i can't live with them anymore. after i heard what happened, you know, but when i was living with them i was getting all these headaches for some reason, headaches. but i, i feel better now and the next thing you know, swipe boat shows up at the door and he so charming the charms is way back into hawaii. and about 2 months later she can't take it anymore again and she goes to the park. she takes out a gun and to blows her brains out. all my going and can i go for that? can you will actually you can because even though she shot her sale and the family had the body cremated, they kept a lock of hair. and her head was loaded with austin, a u. manga was even poisoning his own fiancee. what will make a long story short,

he actually lot winds up in my neighborhood at the northwood long island, b a medical center. and you know, something interesting. he was there on a residency and guess what, what particular medical field in psychiatry that he had to go on front of a board of trains. so i kind of interest and can you this each and every one of them that he should be in the program? and he grad, incredible. and then that's when i got that phone call as soon as i lived. so and i happened to call with one of my agents and i go down to visit him. now let me tell you this guy look like a movie saw this got off the golf course wearing these ada saw sunglasses. you know, cells in john, if i didn't know better, i want to introduce them to my own daughter. yeah. right. he's next the next marine doctor. right. you know,

spending on nation zeros. i'd say come on. the i says when i go join the family. wow. if i didn't know that well, so he's given me the same bar withdrawal story, you know, and then when i started challenging him, he's not so charming. you know, don't want to talk in the next thing. you know, he leaves the country where he's the country. he goes to zimbabwe africa when he's is awfully africa because it's such a shortage of physicians. there. he's killing women and children and pregnant women . my god. and they have an arrest warrant, say him, but he returns the united states because he had to renew his passport. this boy went on ya to another country and we arrested him, but not for murder because we didn't have any evidence that he murdered anybody at all. here we were send him, but every federal ages, they re crime line to the government. he said lie or it's of the government. if you

want to a federal agent, you're guilty of a felony. that's right. and 3 years in jail, full line to the government. so that gave us a window of opportunity, a window of 3 years, the trying to prove that he murdered any of our nation's heroes at the north port va medical center. and that's what started me on, on that particular journey. let me ask you to why is it so difficult to think for medical professionals to be able to spot a colleague who, who can kill in a hospital environment. medical professionals, of course, are supposed to 1st do no harm on is it, is that it, that they're supposed to be hillers, and not killers. so people generally don't suspect their colleagues of these terrible crimes. it will look if you are so inclined to commit a number is what perfection and what location might you choose? right? tape?

you might choose a profession that kind of gives you the legal power of life and death over an individual. what professions do we know? how that, you know, you, you might want to take a profession where people take, you know, have dedicated themselves to saving lives. so who is going to believe that in this wonderful universe of compassionate people who have dedicated themselves to saving lives, these going to be someone hiding in that group. let's actually taking lies. it's almost impossible to believe. i mean, all your co workers have dedicated themselves to saving people. you see miracles performed almost every day in the hospital. and to believe that somebody is intentionally murdering people. is very, very difficult. you know, it's very difficult for the fireman to believe that one of his co workers is actually starting fine. that's right, right. it's the same thing here. it's

a universe of such dedicated professional people that no one wants to bully. now one of the a co workers would be intentionally taking lots and i can understand that i could see we are speaking with an investigator and author, bruce sacrament, about his investigations, into medical serial killers. we have to take a short break, but you're not going to want to miss the 2nd half of this conversation. stay tuned . we'll be right back. 2 the a dangerous embrace when joe biden bear hug benjamin netanyahu. stan brace, design is the agenda and all its deadly consequences. no matter how the american administration wants to parse as rules and israel's war on gaza. united states is

ultimately accountable for israel's military campaigns. take a fresh look around his life. kaleidoscopic isn't just a shepherd, reality distortion by tell us to division with no real live indians. fixtures designed to simplify will confuse who really wants a better wills, and is it just as a chosen for you, fractured images, present it is, but can you see through their illusion going underground? can the welcome back to the whistle blowers. i'm john to reaku. we are speaking with renowned investigator and author, bruce sacrament,

about his work tracking down medical serial killers, those medical professionals who become self murderers. welcome back again, bruce. glad to have you. thank you, bruce to tell us a little bit about motivation, the average serial killer. when, when one thinks about john wayne gacy or gary allan ridge way, or dentist reader is a sociopath or a psychopath. who becomes more and more bold, often even taunting the police. but that's not the case with medical serial killers . is it tell us about their motivation? what leads them to do it? you know, i'll tell you what i've seen over the years. um, not a psychiatrist or a psychologist, but this is when i've witness. i would say the number one, the number one reason and i've seen something called munchausen syndrome by proxy right now. much as an syndrome by proxy is, is often displayed when a mother will maybe intentionally harm

a child and bring that child into the hospital. show the staff what a caring, dedicated, outstanding parent they are. and is trying to be so compassionate, please help my child and they want the staff to give them understanding and compassion. well, in some strange way, this is the same thing with medical sale kills medical serial killers. when you look at their evaluations, like ok, nurses, ok, doctors. except when it comes to code and a cold, i mean an emergency, a cold blue. and when you read the evaluations, you will see that beginning outstanding when it comes to code. one of my medical serial killers. kristin gilbert, the doctors would say, you know, if i ever cody, i would want kristin gilbert. there she starts barking or is it the young in terms was scanned out of her mind. she case control, she's

a hero. she's outstanding. why this is one of these people want because throughout the whole life they will kind of put aside and they need get the attention that they. ready wanted right, they would never consider their was considered more zeros and heroes. now, son, and this is an opportunity for them to get the attention that they never had before and they don't care about the victims. the victims is just an end to the means. they care about the attention that comes to them and that i've seen throughout the world is perhaps the number one reason. it's not exclusively, some people likes wind o. i just loved the power of life and death. nasa your power and then over the summer, what incredible high for him. you know, why didn't incredible turn on? did he do that by god that he had the power of life and death and, and that's also calm. but there are a few other reasons, sometimes is

a case ongoing in texas. now we're a doctor is just pissed off at management and his co workers and he says, you know, i'm the best doctor here. he can't even compare it to me and you know what they did to me. they took away some of my privileges, they reduced my office, they cut my money back out, show them how fill them when patients start going unexpectedly, they know we always have a point value and they will come back to me. my god, the yeah, the priest. yeah. those are some of the most common reason that i've seen throughout the world mattresses. be able to walk 2 or 3 years ago. i entertain the idea of writing a book about serial killers. i, i've written a non non fiction books. i thought it would be kind of a fun departure and i especially wanted to talk about their motivation and what made them so bold before they were finally caught. so i wrote letters to 8 or 9

serial killers who were in prison, including some of the most famous names, many of them, including gary alan ridgeway the green river killer, the b t k killer son of sam tex watson from the manson family. they actually answered me, but their answers were all the same. they said they found jesus in prison, jesus had forgiven them. jesus was, was saving their lives, they were living their lives for jesus, etc, etc. ridgeway even sent me. it was a big package. it had 50 religious pamphlets in it, and he asked me to distribute these pamphlets around my neighborhood. so of course i true, i threw them away. but my image, your conclusion was that, that there manipulative behavior continues in prison all these years later that, that this manipulative personality is what keeps them going. they think it's going to get them something to, at least profess to be christian,

for example. so my question is, is that also common among the serial killers once they've been caught? and if it is, how are they able to, to cover it up for so long as they build their medical careers as well, i guess it sort of a 2 part question. the 1st part about being uh once, once they are incarcerated. well, many of them will decline to speed because there are additional murders out there. god. right. and they tried and convicted and even received the death penalty depending on wherever it occurred. so they're not going to do anything else, right? because when we suspect these medical serial killers are killing 36, the a 100 people often we don't have the proof on hand that they killed that many people

. right? you know, we have narrow it down to the very, very best cases that there are and pursue those cases. but they know they know there are other victims out there and we should be able to prove it another bit them, especially with some lead that they gave us, they could be retry, prosecuted and possibly even executed. so they're not going to say anything at all about that. all right, and you know it's something interesting because when the whistle blow was in the case of chris and gilbert, this is a real example of whistle blowers fan, had floyd backgrounds and you know, um some of them had a substance abuse problems and other personal problems and they knew this was gonna all come out. but they had incredible coverage to comfortable us and tell us what had happened. well, what do you think happened after the trial? so question gilbert, who were your legs killed about 30 of nations heroes at north hampton

b medical center in massachusetts. uh, she goes to trial and she's found guilty. and the whistle blows with just tremendous. we wouldn't have known of that as a living for themselves. so when they return to work, do you think that they agree it is? he will say, oh no. just the opposite. uh, just the opposite because you'd say what the hell do you do us? now when people drive by the hospital, they don't say, call this the hospital, let's say if my dad, that's the hospital, it does wonderful science. no be think that's the hospital with the medical serial killer work. why did you have to do that? you won't do it for all of us. you room, the reputation. not. thank you for getting rid of the murder that they never, ever. all they heard was criticism from the a co workers. why did you call the inspect the general? why did you believe bring the police in here?

why did you bring along his bad publicity to us while genetically the credible? bruce tell us where people can learn more about the work that you do and about your book? sure, well the website is same as the name of the work behind the murder cars dot com. it details all the stories of medical serial killers inside the v that i personally investigated, including doctors wango and kristin gilbert and others, including a, a physician in albany that old and medical records to put the veterans into research studies. they should have never been ended. and they were murdered. i mean, they're really some incredible stories in that book. and also, you know, there's a, there's a television show out there. cool. um, what's it called very scary people. yes,

thank you very scary. b h l n. and it has 2 levels on swine go. yes, but i like to find people to um, to read the book, to go to the website, to e mail me. i get emails all the time from veterans and non veterans and people who have been victimized by this. and, you know, and it's one thing we have to mention here is a whole human side to this. john, you know, we talk about the statistics in the message, but these are human beings we're talking about but for the families such harsh, oh, so could you imagine, do i mean if i, if i rang your doorbell one day and i said, excuse me, sir, you know my name is bruce sacrament, and off from the the a. and we have reason to believe that your father's death was of a suspicious nature. can i go to the cemetery and dw nadia runs s mm hm. could you imagine your visit, like a, could you imagine sitting in a court room and the ceiling,

all this evidence of how your father was murdered and a v a hospital asked that he spent his entire life. yeah, same thing, america reads, right, well, a terry to the movie the hassle imagined the human side is, is how you would feel. and sometimes when we talk about this, this is how many mirrors and the techniques and all that. we forget to mention the human side of the families and the families have always been just amazing for me. just fantastic. fantastic. well, thank you so much for spending this time with us. this was fascinating and we were very happy to have you. so i want to thank bruce for joining us and for sharing his fast ending experiences. and thanks to our viewers for watching the author, bret easton, ellis, one said, quote, it strikes me profoundly that the world is more often than not a bad and cruel place on quote. in many cases, i'm sorry to say that's true, but we're fortunate to have people like bruce hackman out there doing the right

thing. i'm john kerry. aku, thanks for watching the whistle blowers until next time. 2 2 2 the, the, the, the,

[000:00:00;00] the in 1943 at the height of world war 2, bengal was hit by famine. a year before japanese troops drove the rate is out of neighboring vermont and came close to the indian possessions of the british empire . london's response to the threat was completely inadequate. the british actively used this towards earth policy. while retreating, they turned everything around him into an uncouth deserts, having no mercy on other people's territory. food in large amounts was exported to great britain from the starving provinces. boats used for fishing and transporting food along the river system more confiscated from the local population,

the barbaric actions of the colonial administration let the monstrous consequences . 10 a year, up to 3800000 people die from starvation and disease caused by mountain addressing . though great britain itself had enough resources to overcome that disaster. at the same time, 170000 tons of australian wheat made its way past starving india to the british aisles. i hate indians as they are a beastly people with a beastly religion. the famine was their own fault for breeding like rabbits, british prime minister, winston churchill commented on the reports of the tragedy. the famine of 1943 became the climax in the british policy of genocide against the indian population. according to historians, from 12 to 29000000 people overall died from starvation alone during the reign of the british in india. the

oh, what else seemed wrong? just don't to shape out because the application and engagement equals the trails when so many find themselves will support, we choose to look for common ground, the acceptance. and i'm here to plan with you whatever you do. do not watch my new show . seriously. why watch something that's so different whitelisted opinions that he won't get anywhere else. welcome to please or do have the state department to see i a weapons bankers, multi 1000000000 dollar corporations. choose your facts for you. go ahead, change and whatever you do. don't want my shelves to stay main street because i'm

probably going to make you uncomfortable. my show is called stretching time. but again, you probably don't want to watch it because it might just change the way you the disturbing images from southern dogs as the palestinian red crescent, post footage up in staff evacuating the injured from the site of yet another israel least dry con con eunice also i have the grapes tricking civilians more in their loved ones who are among the 20 plus reported victims of idea of bombs and central gaza, including many of the home and about i lost my children twins, all house was bomb, tend to rumble, fell onto the children that took place on that birthday december 28th called bless