the welcome to also parties average reading and the hunger from knowledge have long been perceived as purchase and homeworks of procedures paving the way to a higher consciousness. but what if i told you that one of history's most of the tory is dictate is joseph stalin was both a devout worshipper of the highest priests of his own library. in fact, this is where he died, surrounded by books and manuscripts, rather than his loved ones. how did style is love of books informed his ruling style of to discuss it? i'm now enjoyed by geoffrey roberts narrative, professor of history at the university college park, an officer of sullens library, a dictator and says books preface, a roberts, it's great to talk to you in person this time. thank you very much for your time and thank you for the invitation. now your book style is library. ssl is to explore the intellectual life biography and i would say psychology of joseph stalin, whom you described as the 20th century,

most self consciously intellectual dictator. and i think it's a somewhat controversial undertaking in this day and age because in order to understand the evil one needs to engage for that rather than dismissed it and condemn it out of hand. why did you decide to do it at this point of time? well, what would you come on? the most important thing between sounded by my book in the past on the 1st that he was an intellectual. he was a man, man of ideas, as well as action he believed in the transformative power. while it is not just in terms of changing people's consciousness, maintenance, attractive, human nature, i'm as a cub, i'm off as the socialist. you know, he was committed not just to the transformation of human societies, but the transformation of people including himself so. so in his engagement with books with reading moved up with ideas, was a very, was a very profound you guys by the, you caught, i'm stand stalling as a person. also because time it has a political back to con, understand all the bad things that we associate with this. it looks almost brutal

dictatorship of the soviet union without understanding him as an intellectual. and i wrote this book because this seemed to me that this, the source piece is library and the books he read it and how we read them, how we mocked them. it is the most amazing, so it's the most intimate source, the most spontaneous full source, the most revealing, sol, so i feel like it's an expiration of stones, intellectual life is life as a reader. but it's also an ex, relation of installing as a political actor. he also describe this t shaped table in a, in the room where he died. as fact, with books manuscripts p. o, because he is personal library was very, very expensive. i wonder if looking at him through the slides has, has changed your own opinion of him as a personality or perhaps a may or your understanding, you know, if he's evil makes you

a little bit more new and yeah, absolutely, i to prison. i wrote this book as she was okay, i've written a number of books about style in the connected with story by want to write a wide range and book about stormy, but didn't really want to want, right. i, i biography. so the seem to be an opportunity to see other kind of intellectual pull tre, intellectual box using this particular source, the actual, but also very, very personal in a, in a very strange way. sure. yeah, but, but, but i went to the reason i went to i wrote wide ranging, but the textbook was i haven't really fully come to terms with colleagues as a person though i see as, as a political actor. and so that's why i wrote this particular book and yeah, it, it was, it was a journey of, of discomfort as far as i was concerned, i suppose the most important thing i discovered on that journey was that, okay, yes, you know, style name wasn't until the actual amount of ideas, a great read the he was a communist, he was

a marxist. right. but the thing our discounts i didn't really understand before was the, he was a feeling intellectual for the emotional that some power, all these all ideology and politics right? next to emotionality, the emotional falls off. he's all i deal with you, these postings, which enabled him to actually rule in the particularly falling to pick tutorial, whether you could do something emotionality of style and as a, as a dictator. and in such a that, that what that was the crucial revelation to me. but it also another point which i'd like to mention it because i'm actually in the book is that, you know, you might say, well, okay, so he was a feeling emotional, intellectual. would that be emotional if you come from and he asked that question, i think is that it coming from stallings early christian opry. before starting mostly developed monk 16 was a deep christian. and i think that this is the transmission of stallings emotional religion. also you haven't really josephine in, so he's marked as

a communist the and socialist. yeah, well i mean, many scholars before, you know that, that the, this a server and attitude towards march says, and then the socialism was simply, you know, another form of religion for a menu of the leaders of his time. many bolsheviks at least now. uh you, you mentioned the many oh stollins books contain extensive markings rich to quote, to you reveal that he valued ideas as much as power and up. he was a true believer in the strength of the word and it reminds me of the opening verses of the bible in the beginning was the worth, which could also be translated as in the beginning was long as the meaning making capacity. and i think you already partially answered my question that i want to oppose it. and on the last, do you think there was something religious or newman that's about the way style is related to not just the warrant but know which they know says yeah. and just the truth of the point you might be the last go. those have noticed the connection

between your stallings religious upbringing, ninety's boxes. i think that's true, but i think the thing about the library is, is that you can actually see that in the source is on the page as you can see. it started snowing 6 feet savings. yeah. up. i suppose the only thing is to kind of on a geologically stalling definitively, did you break with pieces? are they just operating? yeah, stalling. didn't see. okay. it was that the magic marxist. he believed in the intrinsic any tunnel truth of marxism. but that wasn't for him. a mattress size, it was a mattress. what do you consider to be site so i scientific of absorbs of ation. yeah. so yeah, that does an emotional connection between just on is a question, installing this as a communist, but at the intellectual crew cab uh, connection is much less. it is much more tenuous. now as you write in your book, like all the bolshevik leaders style and believe that the reading could help

transform no just people's ideas and consciousness but human nature itself, he, sore writers, ends as a engineers of the human soul, which is the subject you have dedicated a separate chapter in, in your book, and when somebody is so eager to transform the human nature or re meg, the human soul, i think there is usually something that they cannot accept as this and most likely in themselves. what do you think makes dolling so bent on re making their human so and i'm asking here in not the you, i'm asking you not as a historian, but it actually is a human being the very intimate personal notation as a to you, as a really interesting question of a postal question. i'm not going to give you a personal so old about should lead us were intellectuals, right. all of them believe in reading engagement body is all of them had big libraries so strongly wasn't unique in that respect. okay. yeah,

i guess it this question about transform submission stuff. yeah. we got up to why was the cost of what was he and the both is constantly grosse, be in that direction and they're doing that because to their ideas that he tokens, they genuinely kind of like believe that this transformation of human nature, but they're seeking, it's possible, of course they don't the truth because that's one of the fundamental stages of the soviet brought the to solve it. so i was just the failure to actually create that utopia that they're striving for. now, personally, i can understand because i will see you type in an idea as myself, as a young man. so i understand that strong thing and also understand, you know, the personal emotional figure of the tribes across something which can't quite get there any. do you understand, you know, the difficulty is you have to so what that, so skepticism about it. so i have, so there's a little personal insight into this book as well. that goes to the terms between

the install. is that still on remind to nadia is given main the utopian, he was threat across the for this is power of protective steam from bell issued to some extent. and i'm also an avid student of psychology. and then psychology, idealization mental ization of rationalization in a tendency to make things abstract. they are considered to be a typical psychological defense is when do you don't want to connect with the, you know, of human nature in yourself when it seems to, you saw, you know, imperfect or disdainful that you would rather think about something, you know, shiny down the down the line and then address it in yourself. yeah, i kind of agree with that, but let's don't forget the point i'm making the about the emotional basis of storage police. so these are geology politics, let's know, sort and also um on the site, the importance of kind of the rational for that this, you know, he has things so it easy. he believed this idea is a know,

a rational grounds there in beautiful browse for his belief. no, i'm saying he's right, but i don't know how to rush the directionality. oh, it's boxes and so you know, it is like it's a combination of this combination of it kind of like to personality and emotionality. combination of very typical steps. human psychological tribes. this always look at the are a function of these rationalist audiology and politics as well. can i ask you something because you are, you mentioned your book that you see him as what we would now call emotional intelligence. you don't believe that he's feelings or, you know, sensing abilities are split off from he's coughing, gift capacity. and i wonder if you've been able to track not only he's emotional reading of others, but he's own authentic feelings or maybe even suffering in those uh, you know, uh, markings on the sides of the books. but i tried to do that as best i county in the book, but even in the sense it's impossible for me to actually summarize the actually

here. it basically was the this inklings in yourself when you felt ok. i think this is a style in writing as a human being rather down as a great leader. he imagines himself to be and terms of these library. yeah, that's the whole point of it. yeah, the whole point stories library has his private reading. yes, he's personal. well yes it is. he would be read sometime later. yeah. well i think that's probably true. maybe towards the end of his life. yes. yeah. he must have been aware that he will become the object of the attention of people like me. he'll rather research just just like many a be coming in his ear. so i thought no, no but, but no, did the actual quality of these markings. it's very spontaneous. it's very, it's very, very, very, very well. thank you. that's absolutely correct. there is an element of performance here, but it's a very, very simple and adam and i have a context with a confidential context with style in your speaking or right see or edit say yeah.

then it is much, much more of a performance foot 4 foot for the opposite of obviously he's putting on the chart. that's not the case when we're talking about his personal event that's, that's the interest. that's the power of the soul. well, i try to do if i try to, you know, tell you this to show showed read how this works for now we have to take a very short break. we will be back to discussing it in a short time. thank you very much. the, there's no end in sight over how you're going to continue to destroy the earth. is the case of the med, most of the people i've tried to go to the gym, but i'm certainly not ready to fight russia. this is also a pursuit. this is the 3rd world lunacy re washing press for so the funder line likes to say we have the tools while we just start with stability and business deals to living on that. we have very close propaganda. you know,

a price here in new york. i think we don't know the aftermath any time that you're not while to ask questions, you should ask all of the questions. some more questions asked the better the answer is will be the the the

director with the parts village after roberts, america's professor of history of the university college of course of all federal stollins library and dictator and his books. professor roberts, in your book, you suggested selling div north, re, quote from reading the works of his arch avenue as likely entrust, keisha was also very much interested in the history of desirous times which soviet propaganda, the time official soviet propaganda fully dismissed. and in order to engage with, that's the kind of material you consider a wrong or adversarial one needs to have a degree of, uh, flexibility versus intuitive. and toler ends, which is not how styling is remember. what do you think compelled him to engage with the other? do you think it was primarily his own personal drive or perhaps the commands of the office? i'm not sure though i'd, i'd use the color and simulation to stall it,

but certainly flexibility. okay. and are the sale it's yeah. so it does appear that so it does it to the say. yeah. in the context of him being a dog my to him office. yeah. yeah. so it wasn't a big surprise to me when i discovered that stalling as an intellectual retina. yeah, he was a learning intellectual. that's not such a, not such a big, big a big surprise to what this surprised me was how much you guys with his political opponents and how much he, he learned from is a police political opponents. yeah. okay. starting was a marxist and he believed the marxism of his reading was marxist stuff. so obviously stuff, comedy stuff. right? but. but he was prepared to read anything and as anyone. right. and he was prepared to learn from tell you, taught this many. i'm not and i'm the guy still using the book is, is the study is his prostate trust the time was much more in the image of trotsky. it as an intellectual. yep. for quite a long time. let me quote the,

what the trust key wrote about style and he describes him as gifted the risk, practicality, a strong will and persistence in carrying out his aims, but also devoid of creative imagination, restricted in his learning methods and political horizons and stubbornly empirical in his mind and trust, he also wrote that style, it always seemed to it to humans based as a man who was destined to play 2nd or 3rd fit though of him playing 1st was not due to style until his talents, but the rather the backsliding of the system i wonder if you detected any sort of intellectual inferiority on the part of style and don't you think he was trying to compensate for something that he saw and trotsky but lacked in himself? no, no, i don't see that so solid. he was supreme lee confident as an intellectual people's, his own mind, his own monks. it's just, you know, his autonomy as a person is a political act and is not geology came from within himself as an end to an

intellectual. here he didn't call 12 to any what any w e sent himself has been of lennon's people who had the best student of land. but he did. yeah. he was the father of lennox. but but he yeah, he wasn't a prisoner of learning about safety. his personality called the, i think clearly demonstrates that there was the bed. yeah. but, but trust because denigration of stallings intellectual, very, very influential feeling the select shaped perceptions are starting from many, many, many decays now. yep. oh, yeah. especially perhaps in the west. 5th, across. absolutely. but, but that, that perceptions change even in the lesson, probably a function of the fact we felt the collapse, the sort of hearing in the open up the rush, all cause historians and i was a much, much more materials. but you know, to work with. and this is your painted a completely different picture, not just the styling but how so the system from the one you get get from chelsea. and one of the discoveries of the, the post soviet period in the all cause has the,

the extent to which talk was an intellectual, unintended guy, simple ideas of mike book is, is part of that, that body of work. but of course, i have a particular and a sustained focus on strong things here to take in relation to his life as a reader and his and his personal library. as before, now it's demons access to for him. books was limit that not only because of the logistics, but also because he didn't know any other language, other than russian and trojan. and yet to point out that style him had a high regard and diligent interest for his political contemporaries. like winston churchill or uh, franklin delano roosevelt juicing that. the interest was reciprocated, dancing they, they saw a nickel in him as he saw in them. oh boy, absolutely. i mean, one of my other specialities is as you are you must know was the stone is will lead to stall. and during the 2nd world war i'm particularly the relationship between

style in a church you and originally. yeah. and this does no, to a look like respect the, the rules of the contractual has this don't include respect for stallings. no which you know, no, they do. but let's see. and the profundity of the only thing i think is what i found fascinating is that style in started the american constitution. and i think it was almost a known both in russian. and the west was that he was a paper sided over and was very much engaged in the works of the of the soviet constitutional commission that was tasked with drafting the soviet constitution of 1936 that's at least in writing, attempted to give uh or a to encourage more active grass roots, political participation in the constitution was passed barely a year before the great terrors which some millions of people to the depths or to the, to the glove. and one thing that i, as a russian cannot understand,

is this either secrecy, between putting so much time and effort into studying have various societies for government. because i think that was his key interest in all that he's reading pursuits and yet reverting so quickly so ruthlessly to the tyranny of they are in hand. how do you understand that, you know, the patients with books and total and patients with the imperfections of, of life and what governing stories overwriting the perotti list of different sources and defend the revolution finally signed them. he sent it to wherever he could to contribute to socialism, and now he needs for pattern engaging all kinds of projects, activities which he saw us to bring the coals, including your link, you know, this new constitution on the 36 constitutional kinds. kinds of other things, but, but in the end, you know, he was prepared to do whatever was necessary to the play wherever funding the

revolution add the at the costs to and the huge cost to his society. you in these people? absolutely. because yeah, apps, because he was a utopia. yeah. he believed this action was necessary. believe he said it money funds, this actually is forced upon us by enemies. right? if we don't do this out and it is all going to crosses that, that is the less than history. it's dawn as a read it. okay. it's times of boxes, most of them was a big thing. police favorite topic was history and the, and the list especially. yeah, you mentioned the constitution. i was very surprised about stallings interest in constitutional law and i'm probably a few minutes to do integration. it's an interest that seems to come when the discussing the new saw the constitution. he thought he's a, he's on we saw it isn't always very important point. it's not always dodges on research. always talk his own reading professor representing the display that i see here, or if his perceive is that people so much f for the interest in researching those

patterns, you know, constitutional uh, governing, etc. but he doesn't have the strength to capacity the patients to put it into practice. because if you want to defend the revolution, you can defend it by your options, you know, putting those ideas into practice and materialize and realizing them. but it's almost like he pursuits them, and them she drops and reverts to the old methods that he's defending against. yeah . well i think he has them as far as he can. but as i said, you know, he, he's prepared to, to assess it. but the kind of argument you've made, it's kind of argument many people invite it in relation to style and which is the note the disjunction between his theory and his practice time, you know, give it, you know, in this the limitations the limitations are okay. of them, so as to how does that mean to actual if i sit with century i to a very serious read in stone. sometimes it could be quite profound and certainly that very effective. but in the end, no piece of limits. it's good for the human being or the geology

policy stuff and easily full garage this political practice is usually kind of problematic. the reason you said because of the impact of these. so if he's your disorder rule on society, i don't own on. i'm on millions of people, folks. yep. i'm not trying to cover anything off the month of yet for any points. one's not us let's to. it's a force. here's any height i think tight and sees books and for a whole book. i mean, gauging with the questions your raising about strong is big to, to lower real. i'm trying to avoid some explanation, some up come on. so to, to, you know, why this kind of look, actually quite sensitive feeling, intellectual in, in many wise control of this bad stuff as well. now we talked before about this quite a religious attitude. this started and had towards the books and knowledge to the nurses. and i wanted to what a center thing the phenomena of style him was specific to russia is collective sold

. because if we look at the russian history of russian literature, the nonsense or the beginning of the 20th century, with all these painful soul searching, i wonder if the emergence of uh, leaders like styling landing was also an out today. that was the inevitable. yeah. what as far as the roster is concerned, started the closest very kind of looked skeptical about all this stuff about, you know, the russian sold and the central or is it very, in some sense, a very typical representative of anything you know its own way. just a way out of that, i'm doing things by yourself exploring here. i've been very stubborn. yeah. i feel good. i don't expect somebody to points to. i mean, i don't think strongly but so you can self that way. i don't think he would accept your analysis and i don't think i do of you know, i think i don't think you need to result to those kinds of explanations. in which

warranty, i think it's much more straightforward and but to, to actually see stein for what he was as a result of the laser, as a communist, as a mall, just as a political access the product, a child of his society. and that's the side as long history, i'm certain for the elections and patterns, but he was nobody he was fundamentally of product categories. um, but she says don't i thought that was on? so if education brought to my office, political, police and commitments, marxism company makes much more sense to locate stone cans that context. i think anyway, down a 1000, you know, the context of the russian tradition but, but maybe maybe this may speak to somebody speaking from, from my experience. so as we mentioned earlier in the, into, as a young man, i was very large strong. except i was a passive, it's robin the live boy. that's but very like very locked in the menu. i. so political activities, some, some i'm speaking from my experience right up, but maybe from the restroom perspective, stock and it's a very different. i don't want to get too close to contemporary politics,

but i do think that they sort of alter that, that gnostic tendency, coupled with a sense of the rushes, this thing destiny is very inherent to the russian that issue. and they still look at why them they're putting his also out today that he also has a sense of a special way for, for russia, not exceptional, but special way for russia. and i think he's or he's very open about it. he reads history, books, norful azure, but for governing insides. yeah, i think you're there, there are lots of very interesting on comparisons to me by between stalling and i, i don't think about that. see, pushing as an intellectual. i have to say in the same step. okay. purchasing guys of all i do is buy. don't think the, i don't get the impression anyway. there was central his to his country and this was just like being that they were stalling. yeah. so, so, yeah, so, so pitney certainly, in case of ideas with reading, with literature course of history. yeah, i mean,

just poking is fanatical about history is the only book to actually, you know, the, the, the 2 main compasses on the voice for each of my while i'm thinking about stalling and approaching these 2 things. firstly, that was patrick. it's a 2nd lead to the both the voted multinational sir, and that's the break comes in that the r c, between the soviet union, the saw, and the russian federation that both of forensically multinational multi ethnic studies above, stalling uprooted, committed to defending the multiplan that multinational character of all of their respect, respect, just respect is but i have one last question and to be only have a few seconds for you to answer it. but i wonder if the sense of autonomy is also one of the main underlying reasons for the current confrontation between russia and the west. this argument over lois over or the wars with capital w,

the right to the worth and the right to come up with your own thinking in your own way forward for your country. i, i guess i would tend to agree with you in a way, you know, in the west you have to kind of like all the geological stuff that always breaks to my mind. the arch is left to prefer both of the still of the soviet period to solve . so if it goes to the system, right. and you know, a good deal at d deal at the electrical stuff of fanaticism and don't mention some of stalling that as, as, as, as, as a marxist, a company. so i think that, yeah, that's a very interesting point that you might have to leave it there and thank you very much for your time in. thank you. congratulations on this very intriguing and very insightful book. looks like super true, very intriguing and insightful land pleasure. and hope hopefully it was also your pleasure. thank you for watching and hope to hear again on was a part of the

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the, the, the death toll in god's that may is 23000 as is well continues to stripe or across the enclave. the quotes react to another say that the house near ours was targeted without any prior warnings, causing many destined injuries. we were sitting at home when, without any warning, the house next to ours was struck enough with this injustice children, elders are going where is international community where all the arabs they should be or all the wrong arrest. 11 people in connection with the twins law that claimed the lives of 191. the bottom is 112 during a memorial for the countries and military colanda killed 4 years ago.