the the and it's really a strike on southern gaza at least 2 journalist. that's the sum of all just arrows . bureau chief is among the victims. what did the civilians of guys are due to them? the world is blind to what's happening in gaza. that's all the gods and is $23000.00 is israel continues it's offensive. locals react to another date and the siege. the house in the ours was targeted without any prior warnings, causing many deaths and injuries. we were sitting at home when, without any warning, the house next to ours was struck. in off with this injustice, children elders are dying. where is the international community where all the arabs they should be are all and rational thoughts is investigate a must have

a central heating system failure animal skills. so the us up to more than a $170.00 buildings. what cuts off due to severe weather conditions those, the headlines at 3 am not the most skilled time this monday. do feel free to head over to all websites, all t dot com for more on any of those stories. and i'll be back with another look in about an hour time difference for the welcome to was a part of it reading and a hunger from knowledge have long been perceived as purchase and homeworks of procedures paving their weights or higher consciousness. but what if i told you

that's one of history's most of the tory is dictate, is joseph stalin is both a developed worshipper of the highest priest of his own library. in fact, this is where she died surrounded by books and manuscripts rather than his loved ones. how did stollins lot of books informed his rolling style of to discuss it? i'm now enjoyed by geoffrey roberts managers, professor of history of university college cork, an officer of saelens library. as a dictator, as his books. professor roberts, it's great to talk to you in person this time. thank you very much for your time and thank you for the invitation. now your book style is library. ssl is to explore the intellectual life biography and i would say psychology of joseph stalin, whom you described as the 20th century, most self consciously intellectual dictator. and i think it's a somewhat controversial undertaking in this day and age because in order to

understand the evil one needs to engage for that rather than dismissed it and condemn it out of hand. why did you decide to do it at this point of time? well, what would you come? i'm the most important thing because sounds about my book in the past on 1st that he wasn't intellectual. he was a man, man of ideas, as well as action. he believed in the transformative power while it is not just in terms of changing people's consciousness, maintenance, attractive, human nature, and as a couple of months, as the socialist. you know, he was committed not just to the transformation if he was a thought is but the transformation of people including himself so. so in his engagement with books, with reading, move up with ideas was a very, was a very profound. you guys by the comp, i'm stand stone as a person. also because time it has a political act to con, understand all the bad things that we associate with with, with style is brutal dictatorship of the soviet union without understanding him as an intellectual. and i wrote this book because this seemed to me that this,

the source piece is library and the books you read it and how we read them, how we mocked them. it is the most amazing source. it's the most intimate source the most from time useful source, the most revealing, sol, so i feel like it's an expiration of stones, intellectual life is life as a reader. but it's also an ex relation of installing as a political actor. he also describe this uh t shaped table in a, in the room where he died, as fact with books manuscripts stale because his personal library was very, very extensive. i wonder if looking at him through these lines has, has changed your own opinion of him as a personality or perhaps a may or your understanding of he's evil makes you a little bit more new on. yeah, absolutely. i took the reason i wrote this book actually was okay, i've written a number of books about style and they'll connect to push tony. bye. want to write

a wide range and book about stanley by didn't really want to what right i, i biography. so it does seem to be an opportunity to see other kind of intellectual pull tre, intellectual box using this particular. so what was the actual but also very, very personal in, in a very strange way. sure. yeah, but but, but i went to, when i went to i wrote wide ranging, but the textbook was i haven't really fully comes terms with colleagues as a person though i see as, as a political actor. and so that's why i wrote this particular book, and yeah, it was, it was a journey of, of discovered as far as i was concerned. and i suppose the most important thing i discovered on that journey was that, okay, yes, you know, style name was an intellectual, a man of ideas, a great read the. he was a communist, he was a marxist, right? but the thing our discounts i didn't really understand before was the, he was a feeling intellectual, right? emotional that some power, all these, all ideology and politics, right?

and it's not emotionality. the motional falls off. he's audiology these postings, which enabled him to actually rule in the particular father and to take tutorial whether you could do something emotionality of style and as a, as a dictator. and in such a that, that what that was a crucial revelation, somebody but it was on i have a point which i'd like to mention it because some actually in the book is that, you know, you might say, well, okay, so he was a feeling emotional, intellectual would that be emotional if you come from and he asked that question, i think is that it coming from stallings early christian opry, before starting mostly developed monk safety was a deep christian. and i think that this is the transmission of stallings emotional, really just so you haven't really deals to feed into his mouth as a communist of a socialist. yeah, well i mean, many scholars before, you know that, that the, this a server and attitude towards march says,

and then the socialism was simply, you know, another form of religion for a menu of the leaders or his time. many bolsheviks at least now. uh you, you mentioned that many or stalins books contain extensive markings reached to quote, to you reveal that he valued ideas as much as power. and that he was a true believer in the strength of the words. and it reminds me of the opening verses of the bible in the beginning was the worth, which could also be translated as in the beginning was longer as the meaning making capacity. and i think it already partially answered my question, but i want to oppose it. and on the last, do you think there was something religious or newman that's about the way style is related to not just the ward but know which ignore this? yeah, i'm just the truth of, you know, reporting might be the last go. those have noticed the connection between your stallings religious upbringing, ninety's boxes. i think that's true, but i think the thing about the library is,

is that you can actually see that in the soul says on the pages you can see solving spelling, stick, feet, savings. yeah. and i suppose the other thing is to kind of on a geologically stalling definitively, did you know, right. we have piece where they just about bringing. yeah. stalling. didn't see. okay. is that the magic marxist? he believed in the intrinsic and internal truth of marxism. but that wasn't for him . a mattress size, it was a mattress. what do you consider to be thoughts so scientific of absorbs of ation. yeah. so yeah, that does an emotional connection between just on is the question, installing this as a communist. but at the intellectual crew cab, uh, connection is much less. it is much more tenuous. now, as you write in your book, like all the bullshit of glitter style and believe that the reading could help transform know just people's ideas and consciousness, but human nature itself, he,

sore writers, ends as a engineers and the human soul, which is the subject you have dedicated a separate chapter in, in your book, and when somebody is so eager to transform the human nature or we may be human. so i think there's usually something that they cannot accept as this and most likely in themselves. what do you think makes style? and so banned on re making their human so, and i'm asking a here not the you, i'm asking you not as a historian, but actually is a human being because it's a very intimate personal notation as a to you, as a really interesting question of a personal question, i'm not going to give you a personal so old about should lead us were intellectuals, right. all of them believe the reading engagement body is all of them had big libraries so strongly wasn't unique in that respect. okay. yeah, i guess this question about transform submission stuff. yeah, we got up to why was the cost of what was he and the both is constantly gras speed

in that direction and they're doing that because to their ideas that you tokens, they genuinely kind of like believe that this transformation of human nature. but they're seeking, it's possible, of course, they don't the tree fit, because that's one of the fundamental effect use of the soviet project to solve it socially. the site you get to actually create that utopia that they're striving for . now, personally, i can understand because i will see you type in an idea as myself, as a young man. so i understand that strong thing. and i also understand, you know, the personal emotional figure of your trans across something which you can't quite get there. and you, you understand, you know, the difficulties you have to so what doubts of skepticism about it. so i have, so there's a little personal insight into this book as well. that goes to the chemist between the install is that still on remind to not use giving names the utopian. he was threat across the for this is power of protective steam from balance you to some

extent. and i'm also an avid student of psychology. and then psychology, idealization mental ization of rationalization in a tendency to make things abstract. they are considered to be a typical psychological defense is when do you don't want to connect with the, you know, of human nature in yourself when it seems to, you saw, you know, imperfect or disdainful that you would rather think about something, you know, shiny down the down the lines and address it in yourself. yeah, i kind of agree with that, but let's don't forget the point i'm making earlier about the emotional basis of storage police. so these are geology politics. let's notice out and also um let's do it on the site. the importance of kind of the rational for that this has things so it easy you believe this idea is an error resto, grandparent miracle brown whose belief? no, i'm saying is right, but i don't you know it or rushing directionality?

oh, it's boxes. and so, you know, it is like, it's a combination of this combination of it, character personality and emotionality. it's combination of very typical steps. human psychological traits, missiles look at the, are a function of these rationalist audiology and politics as well. can i ask you something because you are, you mentioned in your book that you see him as what he would now call emotional intelligence. you don't believe that he's feelings or, you know, sensing abilities are split off from, he's called him def capacity. and i wonder if you've been able to track not only he's emotional reading of others, but he's own authentic feelings or maybe even suffering in those. uh, you know, uh, markings on the sides of the books. i tried to do that as best i county in the book, but even in a sense, it's impossible for me to actually summarize the actually here. it basically was the davis inklings in yourself when you felt okay. i think this is

a style in writing as a human being rather than as a great leader. he imagines himself to be and terms of these library. yeah, that's the whole point of it. yeah. whole point stories library has his private reading. yes, he's personal. well, we'll see if he wouldn't be read sometime later. yeah. well i think that's probably true. might be towards the end of his life. yes. yeah. he must have been aware that he will become the object of the attention of people like video. rather research is just like many be coming in his ear. so i thought no, no but, but no, did the actual quality of these markings. it's very spontaneous. it's very, it's very, very, very, very well. thank you. that's absolutely correct. there is an element of performance here, but it's a very, very simple and adam, you know, out of context with a confidential context with style and use the key or right to your editor. yeah, then it is much, much more of a performance foot 4 foot for the item. obviously she's putting on a shock. that's not the case when we're talking about his personal event that's,

that's the interest. that's the power of the soul. watch what to do if i try to, you know, tell you this to show showed read how this works. for now we have to take a very short break. we will be back to discussing it in a short time. thank you very much. the, [000:00:00;00] the,

[000:00:00;00] the the extra ones, the parts of the chapter, robert's america, is professor of history of the university college, of course, of all federal sullens library and dictator and his books. professor roberts, uh,

in your book you suggest the selling div notes recoil from reading the works of his arch avenue as likely on trust. keisha was also very much interested in the history of desires times which soviet propaganda, the time official soviet propaganda fully dismissed. and in order to engage with that kind of material, you consider wrong or adversarial. one needs to have a degree of, uh, flexibility versa, tailored to and told her friends, which is not how styling is remembered. what do you think compelled him to engage with the other? do you think it was primarily his own personal drive or perhaps the commands of the office? i'm not sure though. i used to live tolerance in relation to scarlet, but certainly flexibility. okay, the so it's the opposite of us a bit so invested to that. yeah. in the context of him being adult. my to him office. yeah. yeah. so it wasn't a big surprise to me when i discovered that this the only has an intellectual retina. yeah. he was a learning intellectual. that's not such a, no such a big,

big, a big surprise to what this surprised me was how much he thinks with his political opponents and how much he, he loved the, the, from his political, political opponents. yeah. okay. so he was a marxist um he believed the boxes and a lot of his reading was mostly stuff, obviously stuff, comedy stuff. right. but. but he was prepared to read anything of that and then he won. right. and he was prepared to learn from take ideas from and i'm not in come to the guy still using the book is, is the study is his prostate process. time was my, it's more than the image of trotsky as an intellectual. yup. for quite a long time, let me quote with what the trust key wrote about style and he describes him as a gift is risk practicality. a strong will and persistence in carrying out his aims, but also devoid of creative imagination, restricted in his learning methods and political horizons, and stubbornly empirical in his mind and trust. he also wrote that style in always

seemed to it to humans waste as a man who was destined to play 2nd or 3rd 5th. so i came playing 1st was not due to style and so who talents. but the rather the backsliding of the system. i wonder if you detected any sort of intellectual inferiority on the part of style and don't you think he was trying to compensate for something that he saw in trotsky, but locked in himself? no, no, i don't see that. so stalling me most of probably confidence as an intellectual. he was his own mind. his own mom is just, you know, he's telling me as a person, as a political outcomes. not georgie came from within himself as an and an intellectual. here he didn't call talk to anyone. i mean, no, he to present himself as being the names of people who got the the best through the lens. but he didn't know he was a photo of lending, but, but he, yeah, he wasn't a prison of learning. i'm unavailable to take his personal. it's acosta. i think

clearly demonstrate that there was the bed setting up at the atrocities, denigration of stallings intellectual. very, very influential feeling. the select shaped perceptions are starting from many, many, many decays now. yep. oh yeah. especially perhaps in the west 5th across. absolutely . but, but that, that perceptions change even in the less than possibly a function of the fact we felt the collapse this over here in the open up the rush . all cause the storage. and i was a much, much more materials. but you know, to work with and this is your paint is a completely different picture. not just stalling about the house. so the system from the one you get get from trophy. and one of the discoveries of the, the post soviet period in the all cars has the, the extent to which time it was an intellectual, unintended guy, simple ideas. a mindful piece is part of that, that body of work. but of course, i have a particular in the sustain focus on strong st. see actual 15 in relation to his life as a reader and his and his personal library. as before,

now it's done is access to for in books was limited, not only because of the logistics, but also because he didn't know any other language other than russian and trojan. and he had to point out that's telling had to hire regard and diligence interest for he's political contemporaries, like winston churchill or uh, franklin delano roosevelt. do you think that the interest was reciprocated dressing, they, they saw a nickel in him as he saw in them. oh boy, absolutely. i mean one of my other specialities is that you because you are, you must know was the stone is will lead to stalling during the 2nd world war. i'm particularly the relationship between styling churchill and regional. yeah. and there's, there's no to look like respect the rules of the country that you'll have just on include respect for stallings moment. no, no, they do. but let's see. and the profundity of, uh, obviously thinking what i found fascinating is that style in started the american

constitution, and i think it was almost unknown both in russian and the west was that he was a, he presided over and was very much engaged in the works of the of the soviet constitutional commission that was tasked with drafting b. so his constitutional 1936 that's at least in writing, attempted to give uh or a to encourage more active grass roots. political participation in the constitution was passed barely a year before the great terrors we send millions of people to that, dest or to the, to the gloves. and one thing that i, as a russian cannot understand, is this either secrecy, between putting so much time and effort into starting have various societies for government. because i think that was his key interest in all. but he is a reading pursuits. i'm here verging so quickly so ruthlessly to the

tyranny of the iron hand. how do you understand that, you know, the patients with books and toto in patients with the imperfections of, of life and the governing stories overwriting the perotti was to defend socialism defend the revolution from the sentiment assigned to do whatever he could to contribute to socialism and you know, he needs for pattern gauging all kinds of projects, activities, which he saw a suffering, the goals, including your, that link. you know that this new constitution that month, 36 constitutional kinds kinds of other things. but, but in the end, you know, he was prepared to do whatever was necessary to the play wherever finding the revolution at the, at the cost of that huge cost to his society and his people. absolutely, because yeah, apps, because he was a utopia. yeah. he believe this action was necessary. believe he said that money funds, this actually is forced upon us by a numbers. right?

if we don't do this out and it is all going to cross us dot, that is the less than history. it's. dawn is a read it. ok, it's times of boxes. most of them was a big thing. police favorite topic was history on the, on the list especially. yeah, you too, you mentioned the constitution. i was very surprised about stallings interest in constitutional loan. and if you meant your integration, it's an interest, it seems to come when the discussing the new saw the constitution. he thought he's a, he's on researchers normally very important point. strong always thought is on research . always talk is on really purpose of representing the display that i see here, or at least perceive is that people so much f for the interest in researching those patterns, you know, a constitutional, uh, governing, etc. but he doesn't have the strength of the capacity of the patients to put it into practice. because if you want to defend the revolution, you can defend it by your actions, you know, putting those ideas into practice and materialize and realizing them. but it's

almost like you pursuits them, and them she drops and reverts to the old methods that he's defending against. yeah . well i think he has them as far as he can. but as i said, you know, he, he's prepared to do what i say. but the kind of argument you've made, it's kind of argument of many people invite it in relation to style. it was just the note, the disjunction between his very and his practice time, you know, you know, in this the limitations the limitations are okay. of of him so as tons of intellectual, if i single, essentially i to a very serious read the song. sometimes it can be quite profound and certainly that very effective. but in the end, you know, he says limits, it's good for the human being or the geology policy. so deeply full drawn is political practice is usually kind of problem ethics. so the reason you said because of the impact office, so if he's your disorder real on society, i don't on,

on, i'm on millions of people folks. i'm not trying to cover anything off the month of yet for any points. one is thomas lester. it's a force, here's in height, i think tight and sees books and for a whole book, i mean, gauging with the questions your raising about strong is big to, to lower real. i'm trying to reply to some explanation, some of the come on. so to, to know why this kind of look, actually quite sensitive feeling intellectual is in many ways control of this bad stuff as well. now we talked before about this quantity of religious added to the started and had tours. uh, but it's a knowledge of the office and i wanted to what a center thing the phenomena of stalin was specific to russia is collect the soul. because if we look at the russian history of russian literature of the nonsense or the beginning of the 20th century, with all these painful soul searching, i wonder if the emergence of uh,

leaders like styling the whole landing was also an out today. that was inevitable. yeah, what, as far as the russia is concerned, style courses for it kinda looked skeptical about all this stuff about, you know, the russian. so an essential, is it very, in some sense, a very typical representative of anything you know its own way just the way out of that i'm doing things by yourself exploring? yeah, i mean very supper and yeah, i feel good. i don't suppose to make 2 points to, i mean, i don't think strongly would say you can self that way. i don't think he would accept your analysis and i don't think i do of, you know, i think i don't think you need to result to those kind of explanations in, you know, which ones you know. i think it's much more straightforward, but to actually see stein for what he was he to us. we saw him today. so as a communist, as i'm office, as a political act, uh when i pulled up a child of his society and that's the side as long history, i'm certain for the elections and patterns be with nobody. he was fundamentally

a product that he's on the she says don't i thought that was on. so if education right, right off his political police and commitments, marxism company makes much more sense to locate stone in that context. i think anyway, down it doesn't, you know, the context of the russian tradition but, but maybe maybe that somebody speak to that somebody speaking from, from my experience. so as we mentioned earlier in the angel as a young man, i was very likes don, except over the past with it's robin the live boy that's but very like very lucky. the menu i so political acting with some, some i'm speaking from my experience, right. so yes, that may be for the rest of the expected stock and it's a very different to see. i don't want to get too close to contemporary politics, but i do think that this sort of alternate act no sticks down and say, coupled with a sense of the rushes to this thing, destiny is very inherent to the russian that issue. and if you look at the right and they put him, he's also out today that he also has a sense of

a special way for, for russia, not exceptional, but special way for russia. and i think he's or he's very open about if he reads history books, northwell, azure. but for governing the name size. yeah, i think uh, yeah, there, there are lots of very interesting um, comparisons to me by between installing a printer i, i don't think about that. see, pushing as intellectual. i have to say in the same step. okay. put anything gates of ideas, but i don't think that i don't get the impression anyway. there was central, he's to his consciousness to is, is like being that i would stalling. yeah. so, so yeah. so, so to me, certainly in case of ideas with reading, with literature course of history. yeah, i mean, just poking is this for magical about history is stalling, was actually, you know, the, the, the 2 main comparisons thought that boy 3 to my while i'm thinking about stalling them. thirty's, 2 things. firstly, that was patrick. it's

a 2nd lead to the both the voted multinational. and that's the break come to that, the seat between the soviet union, the saw, and the russian federation that both, both scientifically of multinational, multi ethnic studies, but stalling and polluted committee to defend the that multi that multinational character of all of their respect, respect, just respect to this, but i have one last question and to be only have a few seconds for you to answer it. but i wonder if the sense of autonomy is also one of the main underlying reasons for the current confrontation between russia and the west. this argument over low risk over for the wars with capital w, the ride to the worth and the right to come up with your own thinking in your own way forward for your country. i, i guess i would tend to agree with that in a way, you know, in the west you have to kind of like all the geological stuff that always breaks to

my mind. the art is left to prefer both the soviet period to solve. so if it does all the system right, and you know, a good deal at d deal id, logical stuff of fanaticism, dogmatism, or stalling that as, as, as, as, as a marxist, a company. so i think that, yeah, that's a very interesting point that you might have to live in there and thank you very much for your time in. thank you. congratulations on this very intriguing and very insightful book will fix the super true. very true. you're getting an insightful laugh, pleasure, and hope. hopefully it was also your pleasure. thank you for watching and hope to hear again on walter part