saw your way vs, where all of a sudden nobody is on their side. everybody is withdrawn of their quote unquote, middle eastern partners. so under a given that gonzalieras views didn't really fit with the main stream of western narrative, do you believe that that could be partially the reason for his faith? unfortunately, yes, i take a, this is a bustling there is, i'm of is that this was there is on is a r s for sure. and the, this is why, but for me it's very, it's very strange to have a confrontation with the people that the 1st time that the ukraine there is a freedom to speech. we have an example right now, which is the fate of people that are trying to criticize the policy over lansky over ukrainian government and the policy of the u. s. government,

ukraine's. it's very strange about the seems that the, as the ukraine, you know, target these wants to defend the us policy, the ukraine. yeah. gonzalez, there wasn't american journalist who was a citizen of a country that is actively helping ukraine. i'm just wondering why there were no attempts from washington to free him and bring him back to the united states. i think because it is not an issue and it is what the she said was not comfortable for a wash. and of course, it's a, it's very uncomfortable for going month to when a journalist from new york county so say in a position that it's not, it's not to your. and i think for this reason the us, i must say, was nothing for us to make something for him. all right, andrea,

that she had a a tell you in war correspondent. thank you. thank you too. bye. all right, do stay with us here on our next on cross side peter lavelle and his guests discuss south africa's genocide case against israel at the i c j and what is happening and does a if not a genocide by the hello and welcome to cross ok. we're all things are considered. i'm peter lavelle. the biden administration is slammed south africa's genocide case against israel as merit was. this begs the following question. been what is happening in god's, if not a genocide, secretary of state blinking says the civilian deaths, cold and gods is far too high. well, what should that number be?

the cross talking palestine. i'm joined by my guest. giorgio castillo in washington. the ceo of golf state analytics in new york. we have line on he is a legal and media analyst, right. gentleman prospect rolls in effect, that means you can jump any time you want, and i always appreciate why don't let me go to you 1st here. i mean, you're a legal person. you, you have a legal background and thank goodness you have a media one as well. um, you know, i'm not a lawyer. i looked at people like you to help me out understand the law. i know the procedures that they do and how to approach the international court of justice. but i've seen hundreds and hundreds of hours of coverage inside of guys that okay, not from tel aviv, um, hotels, uh, not from the the,

the suburbs of washington dc in new york. okay. i've seen hundreds about if that's not a genocide is blinking claims. it's merritt list, but what is that? it's a couple of things here. first, the genocide that people may think in terms of, i don't wanna say colloquialism but, but when you think of the, the holocaust or ro, wanda, under the statute, we're talking about the genocide convention of 1948. it's a different, it's a different standard. let me get down to the brass tax the, the gravamen, if you, well, the real issue and what is real in particular and their legal team should be looking at one of the problems as always seen is intent. and you're going to hear this a lot. was there and into just because there's, there's, there's horrors, just because there's death. sometimes war might be entered into for valid reasons and there's collateral damage, etc, etc. but the question is, how do you were stablish intent what they're going to show?

and by the way, keep in mind, saw that for got the bricks, country who by the way, knows a little bit about of apartheid. another is but where they're going to show is by virtue of the statements made from generals from media personalities from representatives. the words from them themselves are going to indicate something that was far more dastardly form more of grievous and something that is not quote collateral damage. that's going to be critical of these prosecution in proving intent. their words will indict them. well, i don't care if i can go back, go to you in washington. i've read the south african brief. i think they have like 15 pages of as lionel is pointed out, to us intend statements from politicians, from general's, the even the president of israel, himself. and it looks quite, there's a lot of intention the way i read it, not being a legal person, but it least in my,

in my, in my estimation, they have made a case for intention. your thoughts or? yeah, well i am not the lawyer or a legal expert, but i think when you look at the facts on the ground and you look at the consequences of the israel's actions in gaza. and as my colleague mentioned, when you look at the statements from is really officials you know, talking about the complete siege to rhetoric about human animals, talk about turning gods up into another alphabets. this in my opinion, makes the south african case a slam dunk one. i have a very difficult time understanding how people can look at what israel has been doing in causes since october 7th is c as something is c is anything other than a genocide? reasons people deny it have to do with politics,

but waiting for the politics to side. that's right. and you look at the facts. i don't think there's a lot. that's my view. well, here's the thing, here's, you know, brings up a really good point line or because if you look at the judges on this tribunal, and it's by a nation state and you said, you know, has already pointed it out and it's good to get down to politics. what nation states supports this and doesn't, and if we, if it comes to that and it probably will come to that, that it de legitimizes the court itself. and then where do we go from there, lionel? up till now that peter look at how claims such as genocide had been handled in the past. almost so yeah, yeah, yeah. yeah, yeah, yeah, something happened. i'm telling you there's 2 events, and in my recent history, september the 11th 2001 october, the 7th, 2023. the world change. everything changed everything into including the way this

is handled the way it's addressed because there's something which is so different. in the old days, if there was a skirmish or some type of activity with from us, the way the media covered, it was a israel would respond. people would say, well, they've no right to self defense and what pretty much go away. this changed and this was not, we're going to go after how much but to the perhaps on trained i, it looks like you're talking about eliminating, not only a people but a land, but an area. you know how the cost is what the, when you want to basically remove and vaporize of people when you want to upset them, exit them evict to them. you can argue about, and this is, i can't believe we as humans are doing this. we don't want to kill all of them the race of the palace and use. we merely want them to leave. and now we're talking about splitting here. but under the definition of genocide and others as well, that may qualify as well. it comes down to the statutes and to comes down to what's

proved and intent, which i say again, it shows you, i think all of us are getting a bit tired of the good cop bad cop routine, that the secretary of state is playing every time he visits the region, every vending achieve any success the 1st time. why is that gone back to what for the 4th or 5th time and just it just the the say face, okay, because there's good cop bad cop thing isn't going anywhere whatsoever. but the whole world know is an israel particularly knows, is that the united states can turn, turn off to speak of arms and money in a nano 2nd. and it won't, that's what's on trial here. go ahead a, hey, agree that this statement is from blinking and others and the by the administrative sion about how they're very sorry for the palestinian dest site. i don't find any of it genuine. and i don't think anyone in the region really finds that genuine. obviously the united states has the leverage to pressure is real and do it immediately accepting a ceasefire because of political reasons. the u. s. is not doing that. and i

think one of the reasons that explains why blinking is going back to the region so frequently and putting on this show. it's not only about us domestic politics, but us domestic politics is a factor. there is grow a lot position among the american population to washington is the iron clad support for israel's war on gods. and i think the binding industry sion wants to be seen as being on record. having told these really leadership, you need to take 7 to talk to you don't tell actions, speak more than words, and that's what those are all about. keep going, my friend, go ahead as well. yeah. again it's, it's not as genuine, and i don't think any serious person sees this as genuine on the part of blinking or other figures. but it's far giving it to attempt to portray the bite and

administration officials as the adults in the room. we're trying to rain is result in. we all know though, that as long as the binding administration gave us the israel, no ultimatums, no red lines, there's no conditioning of a. there's no reason to expect israel to change its behavior. we should also point out, even in previous us, presidents were very pro israel, ronald reagan, george w bush. they gave these real red lines by didn't hazards. i think this is the most pro is real us administration we've ever had. and by that, i'm not saying doing things that are in the interest of israel, because i would argue that what the us as the way is not in the long term interest of israel. but what it means is most aligned with the is really government of the day. well also i don't think you live in line, or maybe you can correct me if i'm wrong here,

but i didn't. i don't think any american president is openly said, i'm a zionist, like joe biden has like, i don't think the, by me ministration understands the implications globally when the president comes out and speaks like that line. all the domestic politics have already been brought up. um, yeah, true or false biden has chosen his donors over his base. oh absolutely. in fact, a couple of things here. you bring up a very good point. i hate to bring up the political aspect, but there's no way to to miss it. you know, a gentleman i, there are people. if i didn't know better, i would think that sometimes non yahoo and barton are living 40 years in the past. they don't know anything about social media. they don't know about platforms yet. they're living in the world. imagine you are not, you're in a room right now and we're watching the lawrence welk orchestra. i'm dating myself . and i'm say, wait a minute, i got up and in the next room, there's one stock. this is the world and we live in kind of a full fox news kind of a little where people are saying the same idea. it's almost like there's

a 4 point thing. israel has a right to defend himself. after all this, about how mosque the human shields and the completely flies in the face of what i say, the world, the world. up to now, if you had told me anything and bobby international criminal course, we take out please that some titular pro forma academic debating society that change in new york. we have, we are seeing a demonstration after demonstration and it's also permeated into the, the ivy league colleges. and that has been completely hide yet. no. i don't think they have any idea. and what the question is, is, is donald trump kind of maintain this is i believe, gavin newsome who's going to be handed across is he going to maintain just good by democratic base because the rank and file, the actual liberal progressive group, which has nothing to do was a lot of the rain before we go to the break your line on one of the interesting

things always pointed out to me, i think it was from max blumenthal and the grade zone is that you start paying attention to what it said. in hebrew, in israel, not what they say in english to the rest of the world, then you get a very good idea of what they are intentionality is. and i think that, you know, with the, the, the even netanyahu's being embarrassed by his own. a coalition partners for it because it's the big i even after the south african brief, more and more statements could be added. so hebrew versus english line. well before we go to the break, a still gradually, correct. let me just say one thing. uh, a couple of years ago, individuals like you mentioned max boom with all the other people that were very, very popular. it certainly had their fan base are now enjoying not a fat and not a of a fan base. but, and a for a day. yeah. version yes, yeah, i cannot. i am watching me personally people that a couple of years ago i would have thought, well i'm, i'm not the biggest fan now there my go to it and we're finding nan. and we,

and norman finkelstein is come back. okay. all right, gentlemen, we're good, i'm going to jump in here. we're going to go to a short break. and after that short break will, can you continue? our discussion on palestine. staples are the the

there's many problems in u. s. society now that they're facing because the, their model is again, it's not able to fulfill the expectations of people guessing growth in, in, in, in homeless mass us and growth in poverty. this is a lot of traffic asians on the people who say so that they need to find a way to, to vote for, you know, solving their own problems and not trying to police the world the, the welcome back to across, ok, we're all things are considered i'm peter roosevelt. true mind you were discussing

palestine the and now we're joined by professor mohammed mirandi intern, and he's a professor at the university of trend. welcome to the program professor, professor, one of the things that we talked about in the 1st part of the program is the, the rhetoric coming out of a israel and out of the by didn't ministration year. and about the genocide case against israel. i want to broaden it out a little bit here. i mean, it's a you, it's hard not to notice that the country is joining south africa are all from the global south. so we have the west versus the global south again. and as our guests in washington dc, dc pointed out, is all going to get down to politics of nation states on this court here. and it's going to be the west against everybody else. they, they, they, they don't seem to understand how much they are alienating the rest of the world.

and the way things are going, i don't think anyone's gonna say we based order ever ever again. thank god, go ahead and turn it on. yes, it's a lose lose situation. so one of the wes from the very beginning they were on board with the genocide. they tried to make this about october the 7th and to pretend that history began on october the 7th. but we live in a different world. today's the global south, they have their own local media and people in social media are talking about the history of palestine. what's been going on and gaza for the last 15 years . the constant air strikes and mass killings that we've seen over the years in gaza . so people see the world and they see cause a different than before, they're getting their information from the different sources. so the west is seen as implicated as they've been supporting this way in the machine. and kirby again

has said that the u. s. as opposed to a cease fire, so the west is hitting it and it's not just the united states to europeans by remaining quiet or a medians. they are losing just like the americans. and then on the other hand, or if, if the israelis are condemned. if the judges take a stance against is riley regime, then it's a loss for this ran these. but if they don't, and the politics get in the way, as you alluded to, then the so called international order takes another hit and did the hold of you and the whole un security council. all of the institutions are we can to even further. and i think that pushes the world further towards regional institutions. it, it makes people look, it breaks more seriously. the same type operation, organization more seriously and other organizations because they see that the un

simply cannot be reform. well, it's hard to say, oh, in washington, it said, we all have to point out, it wasn't the you in that spearheaded this. i know that there was a site know you need one of the member states of the united nations to do it. now they have the infrastructure at the united nations, but about the prevention of genocide. they were very quiet, remarkably or on. remarkably, how you look at it shows you another thing that's really interesting to me in a line over to is been very gracious to come on week after week to discuss this. we've discussed many times be awareness issue. it's just, i'm, i'm amazed by i'm amazed by how much more awareness so because i remember after october 7th, i just, i know what's going to happen. we all know what's going to happen. it will be brushed aside. i was very, very wrong and i'm very glad to admit when i'm wrong, because the awareness around the world which, which they do a juxtaposition here, where all the protest, where's the money for ukraine, they don't exist. but where are the protest all across the western world? even an american jews, that i know personally,

they don't usually go out and protest, they protest, okay, not in my name and never again. and i think that's a real lesson for us. all. that is really something that is professor mirandi is already alluded to. the west is out of touch with the rest of the world and even with their own publics. go ahead in washington as well. i think you're absolutely right. this narrative that what is real has been doing in gaza is all about defending these real, or it's all about going after from us as opposed to the people of guys a. this is a narrative that is really rejected throughout the global cells. and as you rightly point out, even here in the united states, so it's a huge segment of the population that also rejects that type of propaganda. i think what is clear is that there is a real divide between policy makers in the global north in, by that, i mean, obviously united states in western europe and those of the global cells. and it's

not just the europe, it is longer world. if you go to africa, south america, you see a very strong opposition to what israel is doing from very prominent leaders such as the leader of brazil. for example. it's the case that talk to were separate. it was a moment and they did a lot to, i think it's the seller rates is bifurcation between the global, even worse and the global south when it comes to some of these information back. this is really remarkable how deep this divide is. it's almost like leaders, it many leaders in western europe in north america are talking about a completely different conflicts. yeah. and what leaders in the global south are talking about that that's, it is amazing observation. i agree with you completely. if you look at the broad shapes in new york times, washington post, say a wall street journal, they're not talk to you about the conflict that all of us are watching in real time

. and that's what, that's what so infuriating is because, you know, you, we could go through the weapons of mass destruction, all we made a mistake, you know, that was an oversight, you know, and then you know, the russia gate hoax, you know, no one's apologize for this but they don't even apologize now for what for blayton lies, they think they go all of you better aware of the systematic rape on october 7th, which has been completely debunked. ok line on. i mean, this is that division. it's not only between the leads and public seer, it's what we're, you know, it's what's true and what's false. go ahead line. oh, i scott fitzgerald said that little lies are hard to keep under wraps. but big lies are easy because of our in credulity. yeah. you mentioned the rate one of one thing i found out, which is very interesting. and if there's gotta be a name for this, like the mandela effect or something, i don't know. but if i come up with

a story that is show her riffing involving please forgive me decapitation rape. different bomb and vis or ration burning. children babies, infants, incubators, name it. if i come up with something and let's assume, argue, endo, just for the sake of argument that it's all false or, and you want to refute that. the 1st thing i'm going to say is how dear you, your tongue, because of the level, the degree of, let's say, the lie, i don't know about you, but i have the certain people in my lives who have been perennially clueless. and i have heard more friends and people that i know could people say i had no idea. yeah . and what you're seeing is this, this blood brain barrier between the new york times and a conventional legacy media and the rest of the world. there is a collision. let me tell you something when, when this is resolved, say good bye to washington, publish new york times. i mean, they're all ready on their death bed. but this is, this is it. you're going to see

a, a complete transsmart verification of, of people in the news media and platforms you've never heard of. and everything has changed for the better. i hope. well, after. yeah, well hopefully it gets better at some point that, but that's not going to happen any time soon, professor mirandi and trend. but from a kind of a looking at how this conflict backed by the united states is continuing. you know, we have this clueless clown named blank and going around. i don't know what he's doing. seriously. i don't think anybody's taking him very seriously. but i think the united states is on board for an escalation of this. they say just the opposite, whatever they say it probably is the opposite. i think the right wing government under net and yeah, we sees this is an opportunity to solve a lot of problems in their mind. gaza a moss has the law to around. i think these people get to think big because it was all of it's good across down upon him. otherwise go ahead. it's what i'm really

worried about this escalation. and i think that the reason why he's traveling, you said that he wants to buy time for this rates and he wants the united states to be seen is trying to solve the problem. but when the united states, as opposed to a cease fire, the world is going to see things as it is as we've been discussing already. and i just want to give you an example. remember, we all remember that when they want the united states wanted to attack iraq over kuwait, we had the incubators. yep. and when they spoke about the babies being thrown out of the incubators, they convinced a lot of people that they have to go to war. now this time over a bit, but professor mirandi but the, the israelis did for us children, the babies out of incubators and gods. that is that doctor that is documented that is document, sorry to interrupt, continue. that is exactly what i was going to get to. and that is that this time

around, even though social media is satisfied even though the algorithms are all read in the favor of the establishment and as well as soon this is randy's actually do commit atrocities with babies and incubators, a comes out or when the new york times, as was alluded to, claims makes outrages claims about mass rate to reporters who you one you named max blumenthal in particular and asthma to when they go after the new york times, the able to discredit it, defines all the yeah, where it was the what it says got gutter, min, what's his by, what's the guy that wrote that article? apparently he's just disappeared off the face of the earth. the. yeah, so now the washington post apparently wants to do it shit. these on least 2 young reporters, both jewish and both 0. i think that's

a truck day preemptive that. hit the spies. calling the reporter on the phone and humiliating hers. the world has changed. so the united states is mainly redeemed, move towards the escalation, is going to get worse. not only what will they be defeated on the battlefield because hezbollah as far stronger than from us, they're not surrounded. they have enormous potential and sato law before the i mean, the armed forces they have, they've been building up their underground networks that are far more advanced than what, how moss has and that small territory. and there's been progressing mirandi. that's why they want to pull the united states and they want the united states to do the, the, they have the heavy work and the demand called joe biden, the great design us and the white house. he might just do it last 22nd. why? and that's why it's i, people should start opening their high, is it not only is the existence of it as well detrimental to western interest,

but there's right. the resume is actually willing to sacrifice the west for itself . he wants to get americans killed. he wants to destroy the western economies for its own sake. it's not to be or not a part of the west. they're bringing down the west. they've destroyed the credibility of the west. people across the world are blaming the west, but this genocide and these riley's, all they do is they turn out the atrocities and make the united states pay the price when it, when it's so we're going to see and that's good, that's a predicts. and i think you go to the bank with the gentleman, that's all the time we have one to think, my guess until around washington and in new york. and of course, i want to thank our viewers for watching us here at our d. c. and next time, remember, trust suckles, the the, the

criminal aggression against our, again, many people will not go unanswered as i'm punished. they use the rebels of our, they will strike back up with us and u. k. bombs of targets across again. and overnight. the attack sparks outrage both within the republicans and beyond his quarters the us as the k all using disproportionate force against the i'm on the current to try to tune the red scene to the blog boss at the hague. israel presents it's defense for south africa, is accusation that a genocide is being committed in gaza and to land american journalists. gonzalieras dies ne pray in prison at the age of 55 where his father says he was tortured to death over.