the, the criminal aggression against our gear, many people will not go unanswered and unpunished. poor the rebels file, they will strike back after the new as a new case found to targets across the m. and overnight the attack sparks outrage both within the republic and beyond this borders the sound, the k. all using disproportionate force against the i'm on the currency. it's hard to tell the rest scene to the blog bought the hey is represent, it's defense to south africa as accusations that a genocide is being committed to income. so the and truly in american journalists, gonzalo libra dies, and the ukranian prison at the age of $55.00,

where his father says he was tortured to the death to the purchase and of not the mirrors, the landscape and buy from moscow. this is our to international, i'd say show our joe, those are your headlines this. our next is what's the blower? the in many cases, perhaps in most whistle blowing is clear cut. the issues are simple, the response is simple and the observer who is not speak to the issue can still understand what the story is. but some cases it wasn't blowing are complicated. the right and wrong of it may not be hard to understand, but the background, the regulations and the governmental response often is it's a special kind of whistle blower he keeps fighting and these complicated circumstances. it's a special kind of whistle blower who continues to fight for 30 years. i'm john

kerry onto welcome to the whistle blowers the . 2 2 2 2 2 2 joe carson was born in brooklyn, new york, and earned a degree in mechanical engineering from the university of rochester. he was in head picked by admiral hyman, rick over the father of the nuclear navy to spend 6 years on a nuclear submarine. in 1982, carson moved into the private sector working as an engineer at several nuclear energy facilities. in 1990 he joined the department of energy as an engineer, just one year later in 1991, carson blew the whistle on wrong doing. for the 1st time. he reported d. o. he was using paid consultants to supplement employees. he argued that this was designed to milk the system d a. we immediately retaliated by declining to implement his safety findings,

which detailed serious workplace issues in d, always oak ridge, tennessee, nuclear facilities, putting lives at danger. it took 10 years, but the merits systems protection board found in carson's favor ruling that the department of energy quote retaliated against the appellant because of his whistle blowing by taking away critical duties from his job assignments, issuing letters of admonishment and by reassigning him from his home in tennessee to maryland. this retaliation, not surprisingly resulted in illness and stress, as well as necessitated the appellant to take a large amount of time from work to consult with his attorneys and other advisors. and quote, or did we was order to pay carson for $100000.00 for legal fees and costs. but the story doesn't end there. frankly, carson's complaints about d a. we were just beginning the m s p b is an independent clause. i'd you additional agency in the executive branch of the us government that serves as the guardian of federal merits systems. its

mission is to protect the merits systems, principles, and promote and effective federal workforce free of prohibited personnel practices . in other words, it is precisely the place where a federal whistleblower should go to report evidence of waste fraud abuse illegality, or threats to the public health and public safety. but it doesn't necessarily work that way. person told an interviewer this, he said my 30 plus here was the blowing story, has essentially 2 parts. the 1st part was against d. a. we. the 2nd part is against the office of special council and m. s. p b. joe carson, welcome to the show. well, thank you john. it's so wonderful to be here with you and your audience. i wanted to begin jill with a nature of here with the blowing whistle blowing is of course, as i said a minute ago, bringing to light evidence of waste front of you. so a gallery are threats to the public health and public safety. so tell us about how this all started. we're talking about 32 years ago now. what was the nature of your

whistle blowing where you have to order for cry, but the time they hired me, it's a department of energy because i had a lot of dicks quite experience as a nuclear engineer. i started up several nuclear reactors in the navy and in the commercial world. and the department of energy realize they didn't have technically competent people to do oversight of the contractors who actually operate a department energy's facilities. so in the problem of energy is unique in senior, in a number of ways that much so all $300.00 plus federal agencies and that stems from its mission for nuclear weapons called it of corporate advantage. you. but the reality is it's, it's, it's better g, b, s, but energy and nuclear weapons, there's a, there's a big part of what do you, we has been about, you know, it's, it's, it's a successive to live in that project to the se. okay? and one of the biggest singular about the week is that

a self regulating source work is safety. when congress passed the workplace of health and safety was in, what 9070 in a well, the agencies exempt themselves from osha's during the distinction that apologize. it was the only agency to do so. so i was how are, in a sense to be in effect that combination, osha, n, o, c inspector with n d a we with oversight over d. we use a facilities in oak ridge and elsewhere. and what i found it is um that because of secrecy, uh, because of fear of retribution. uh, because honestly because d a we lawyers. ready to put a target anyone's back, who force any concerns and get away with it that do we was very unsafe, the facilities and i'm just not, it's not just my conjecture my whistle blowing in the 1st 10 years of the saga played a positive role in the passage of the war 2000 and the net. ready is entitled the

energy employee occupational illness compensation program act up 2000 getting the past with a very close thing. i think by with a boeing another actually is quite a positive perhaps significant. ready in his passage at this point in time way 2023 . over a $135000.00. so i'm or d, we work or so there's a variety spouses have received over $20000000000.00 in compensation. oh my god, being safe and unhealthy. yeah. workplace condition without their knowledge, but that added protection in making and then do we facilities during the cold war 10 and the to that that's how you started though. it was about safety and it was about safety at the, at the workplace. and when you went, i, i'm even reluctant to say when you went public, but when you reported this, you weren't in that almost immediately with retaliation. what was this,

that d a we did to punish you for this was the blowing and i, i'm going to add to, i've known you for a long time. you've always done this exactly the way we are trained to do it. you've always done it within the confines of the law to me, but i have been non laterally resisting institutional legal now for 30 years. yes. and i think this are and all of us. um, so the so yeah, you have to correct that initially they, they suppressed by safety findings because a voice concerns about the use of, of, of you know, consultants no support service contractors deal. we have contractors and contractors and, and, and i'm, i'm on usual. i mentioned to you we use, i think, singular, i'm in the nuclear weapons mission. since you were in being exempt from osha and a seizure section. it's also send your is relies upon contractors. the term is called go co go co acronym i'm going to use. i'm sorry, probably a lot of acronyms,

gulf coast stands for government on contract to operate. so do you, we always use facilities, but it, it is, it has contractors in, in a long term contracts with big corporations to operate to the so what he's thinking, that's what. ready the private sector should be doing as opposed to the federal government, but the we then go out, you know, does contract management. but when do we realize that these contractors have been making a ton of money, but dumping a lot of waste, believe it or not. and i'm going to open a lot of tangents. if you look at the, the, the debit waste of the us government, you know, what number 3 was. the 3rd item on that was this, i hate to add, simon. and of course for the department of energy. number 3, now estimated the $500000000000.00 and every year we spent $10000000.00 to clean it up. but the, the estimated cost remaining cleanup goes up. and, you know, it's just, it's, it's, it's, you know, it, and this is from the new, another legacy. you creating 60000 nuclear weapons, you know, during the cold. ready or more so um okay,

okay. so i would say because i've always concerns about the sport service contracts, they started to suppress my safety findings and then put me on what's called a tip, a performance improvement plan. it was pretty amazing because one month i'm getting a for ro, performance evaluation. then i get a, a special performance evaluation of point $57.00. it is like college with a 4 point with a 4 point know scale. and my responses i'm breathing isn't worth at least a point 5, you know. right. and over the years, joe, you've had, you've had a number of wins, including one early on and which the government was ordered to pay you $400000.00 for your legal fees. why does your rare case? why does your case remain in convention? well, okay. it's actually in the 1st 10 years i bill no to was an 8 times. and when i say prevailed, i'm using that more wiggle term o'clock, that the government had to pay my attorney's fees if you had to,

but be able to get attorneys fees. okay. so one time i to bill by the end of a settlement, the time i prevailed by the end of unit, the will unit unit laterally withdrew the the contents of personal action. and the 3rd time the time you described in the intro was yes, i went on the merits. and additionally, i mentioned the settlement agreement deal. we did not out of the settlement agreement. so in fact, the m as be bigger damage debates with forces that i'm agreement, it must be a great deal. we have not kind of the side of the grant. and in the case you mentioned, do you, we did not honor the order to restore me. so i had to go back to m as b, b to get them as we beechwood get ordered dealing with, with threatened d a. we to withhold the salaries of a d. we official if they didn't comply with the order. um okay, so that was the and during this whole time there's another entity and that's the us of the special council. and that's a small obscure agency which is specifically test to protect me from what

repeatedly happens to me. right. so i'm going to make a distinction here. do you, we single be out. early on it is, i was, you know, i was to explain to the very clearly the, the, the wires rules for a was if you will, for employment to be a way. and it was kind of like a good fellow. it's kind of a think joe, you're a great guy. what did your background you got a nice family level about oh, what a scott it. hey joe, you're going to do just fine. but let me tell you the rules here, okay? if you, if d, we, if it's legal, it's that can be a week if it's legal, it's ethical. and d a way if the attorneys get away with it, it's legal. and then d, we the only way you have joe is the right to seek employment elsewhere. the joe you go to just for okay. right. okay, flush and then here we i, this is the question john. yes, is this. why was we're still 20000000 people on a new summary and the, it's right. no, no, not at all. nope. and i'm going to see you then, you know, i'm going to, you know, and you know, i'm having an ice life, but they're gonna take me out. you know,

i mean, not, not, not going to the back of the head, but not going to be fired. we're going to make this all work. yeah. okay. and then 30 years later, here we are 30 years later and you're still in the same position then you were 30 years ago. this is 30 years after you begin your whistle blowing. so i know the for about half that for about a half that period, how have the issues changed during that time? and how has the government's response to your whistle blowing changed? i have we ever or have you ever gotten to the point where they've said okay, listen, this has gone on long enough. you're right, we're wrong. we're going to fix this, or have they just double down and fight you this whole time. okay, well let me try to, um, you may say i was born in brooklyn. uh, i'm showing here that they got it on the screen. me like a file anyways, my grandfather's ring. he was in new york city farm and put it in front of my nose . i. there it is. okay. and a name for him. a fireman, you know

a 100 years ago. but i grew up watching the rest of the world trade center work in high school. i was in a numerous time. you know what it was there. mm hm. so my strongest, and i'm saying, you know, and that might be a sort of my strongest initial. and what else do we actually 911, release. it was a no clear. right? going 1st about the corruption in the department of energy or the custodian, america's nuclear stockpile, and the weed federal way to secure a new collab switch. it was around the world. ok, good point. so it's personal and i realized that was going down to spend a minute ago. do you? we singled me out. reprisals the all the special council failing to protect the time after time after time did not single but yeah, i was just another space in the crowd. and i realize that the reprisals are experiencing the way the law of breaking outer space and do we had causes outside of deal with the failure always to to protect me enabled to do you we attorneys to

basically code with a pretty uh personnel specialist and align management to engage reprisal. oh and then we seek discovery, they would invoke the attorney client privilege. you know, you can do that a good cordell can, can lawyers representing a drug cartel section to witness and then a bulk attorney, client privilege. right. that kind of deal. we the custodial america's nokia stockwell creek. okay. so why am i still here to look new daily attorneys? no, i got dirt on them. and so we have kind of a stand off, but i realize the returns can do what they do because low as the attorneys allow them to an image to be with readers, allow them to sort of 5 d a we for that was kind of futile and i saw, you know, i'm not, i'm not coming. i'm not overstating my reaction. 911 and then like more anxious, i have to take out what take down what was the before breaking through and of a federal agency. that puts american civilization at a, necessarily increased risk of a new cri, $911.00 or other special catastrophe. jo,

hold that thought we are speaking with joe carson, an american west of lower from the us department of energy, who has been blowing the whistle on government wrong doing for more than 30 years. stay right there, joe. when we come back, we'll discuss joe carson's experience working with and fighting against the federal bureaucracy setup to address with the blower revelations, stating. 2 2 the, the, the, the 5 ministration is slammed south africa's get aside case against israel as married list. this makes the following question. been what is happening in god's,

if not in genocide, secretary of state blinking says it's a 1000000000 dental and god's is far too high. well, what should that number be? the actual cause of the motor published for you? still, not until i see. so here's the my. so you are using the white some what i showed them are you and somebody on the phone to disclose also in the front of mind. but in this tool disposal setting, this debate is up savings. so you have to move to receive those who manage to free, continue the work of undermining russia. nobody needs team is opening offices in the us though, so similar to this hour. so it's just, we need to, especially if i do, it's about seo manual on a, for me, at 4 in the office for this other thing is that sam got the new guy up as you see

the shirts. but i want to show us the democrats, you dogs, a deal example because i give the rest of that completely. gotcha the welcome back to the list of lawyers. i'm john curry, onto were speaking with joe carson. the american was the blower from the us department of energy. joe, good to have you with us are actually going to be back. thank you, joe and joe, to me the, the most complicated aspect of your whistle blowing has been this ongoing interaction with the merit systems production board. the m s p b. can you explain to us exactly what the m s p b is what it's role is in wisdom blowing and why you've had to fight it for so many years. let's go back, you know, little bit of history of the federal civil service and i'll try to get just the high points that was created in the 1883 body assassination of present.

garfield by a disappointed office seeker, prior to that all federal agency for him was adrian his base. but there was so much corruption of the grads and the federal agencies or the federal government grants, but she was so. ready ready or that there was a push to make a federal employment marriage based on patronage space. the pedals inactivate 2 or 3 created. what does it allow the pet. ready civil service, the biggest singles legislative change in that 140 years and right is a so there was a form act of 1978. and the m s. b, b was created in by that was another agency created by the law was the officer, special council and, and some, several others. but one of this legislative objectives of the civil search or for mac, was to kind of find more that the federal agency employment would be married base. not if you will corruption guys to look for, you know, if you're not falling married at this point in time,

you're breaking the law as long as corruption from the merits. but it's actually, board is the name and it would imply was to protect birth based employment practices in federal agencies. the violations of marriage based up before the marriage. principles taught by the agency is a term by anybody personal practices which include with a well reprisals. excuse me. the other special council has a positive do 3 to protect federal employees from personal practices the american. but it's actually bought it in addition to is clause i like to do to get to the function as a duty to report to the president and congress. whether federal employees are radically protected from favorite pros prices including but not limited to whistle reprisals. and then the president has the duty feminist to be serves the want to take any action necessary to correct it. right? so on a lot. right. right. so what's the use of fraud and what i'm saying

is destroyed. you might have thought that was for advocates, and they would say, well, who is the is good is gets well meaning. and how can you reconcile well, meaning with fraud, right. well, you turn in a sense that it's close to you guys got a 120 employees, the police are federal workforce of 2000000. it just doesn't have the resources. that's right. so it goes all foreigners. so it may be more meaning, but it's still a fraud. sure, it just said that bible. yeah, it is the same thing on capitol hill where you have these enormous federal departments. and then you have a dozen staff members or 2 dozen staff members that are supposed to oversee them. it's just not tenable. and in your key, right, this is dragged on for so long that then you must have attracted the attention of at least somebody in congress, right, their, their committees in both the house and senate that oversee the activities of the department of energy. surely somebody has said something. so what's, what's been the reaction in congress to your whistle blowing?

well, the reaction of this papers and, you know, probably as well as i know how to show that. but, oh yes. and it would just be, be yours. i kind of still are, but it also got a lot of attention on staffers, as many other things. congress says 50 will outsource, is oversight to which the vote advocacy groups end up. okay. so when i talk to people congress, i say what the whistler advocacy group say. they really don't want it. they don't say i'm wrong and they don't get involved. yes. and that's kind of discussion. yeah, that's actually been that, that's actually been my understanding of your situation. you and i have a lot of the same friends in washington for example, were acquainted with the same the same with the blower advocacy groups. we've worked with with several of the same groups. but um, but when you mentioned the m. s p b, their eyes just sort of glaze over. and i, i've often wondered where are these outside groups and all this?

why are they not advocating for you and be on the width of lower groups? what about the federal employees unions? why aren't they helping you? why haven't they jumped to your defense? okay, well option option a i'm just going into your cran wolf. you know, there's nothing to say right? correct? so they're not gonna, it's right that's, that's an option. all right. option b, these advocacy groups and others a great what's going on. so the government blubbering the benefits their business models and that's so much not a very, pretty picture, but is there an option? see, right, right there really isn't an option you see. besides that, besides suing. all you can do is to continue filing lawsuits. is that right? well, with the board reprisals deals you know, via but that goes if i am as b b, it's like a real me. oh, yeah, i've been, it was

a grant 4 times 4 times. and so there's, you can imagine there's reads of documentation though. yeah. and is that the paper, any way that says like, with the disclosures lack reasonable belief? yeah, it's all, it's all about the authorities trying to hide the world. right? yet my case is and various brands. so there's, there's no other termination of the merits, including the merits of my westport disclosures. so, and then you get involved with the, you mentioned federal 4 years. and then there's a um, they have a vested interest in a worth with. so lets see for the numbers to be then unable to have why? so because the federal employee using i'm, i'm a member of the board or you know, used towards where union affect the rest of the present the suit of it. so years ago there opened shop and they cannot require federal employees to pay dues to them . so why would have federal point paid $3.00 to $400.00 a year to do is to

a union. right? and bond quote pours the union reps to say, this insurance. what do you mean by insurance? there's something called election of remedy to view a wedge of prohibitive personal practice. yes. you can either file a grievance within the union or you can go to always c, m as b b. you can do both. so of always seems to be a scene is worthless. then the, the, the grievance process through the union is, is, you know, relatively better, which helps just if i pay the insurance money for the dues, right? so the total of 4 years benefits from a broken, always say, no matter what, hold on to america they, you know, they're, they help set it up so you need memberships, and that's what they were interested in. mm hm. for, you know, an up st. john's legally b, you know, and i'm going to be 70 a few months. i have almost 40 years of federal service. what to get to you know, what personal cost, not a little bit mission accomplished. they put it by me. okay. yes. so early to see

and my wife agreed, i could spend up to a $100000.00 to get a resolution. i was to go to school. your teens not now spend about $25000.00, but i'm going to put money on the table to say anybody file a complaint against be with the tennessee missouri board. me allegations of with the of the, the wall breaking it always seems to be. far or not, truth, what objectives that i'm going to 0 quite well. and if that if the, if the 0 boy in tennessee takes any display actually goes to be a given you whatever money we've agreed. so it'd be like about to me and i've said just the coffee houses, and then we kind of the respective hedge were covered at a m s b b. and the former head of yours is special kind of who is now a nominee to become a member of m s b b to no response, no response. but there's another risk. there's another angle that is also api. i resend the board members of m. s p b or attorneys. a large majority of employees of all we'll see our attorneys by

currently plastics. who is your clients in, in, um, in the, you know, attorney client relationship is kind of central to attorneys identity by currently do ethics. if you're a government agency attorney, your employee ac is your clients. hello, cathy. hi. it was a discussion with the licensing authority, the dc bar. she is just the 5 digit, whatever she can get away with the prevent any resolution to my visible disclosure, right? in the, in the a protective her clients, the agency that she also leads the agency is supposed to protect the integrity of federal civil service. can you see how we're kind of a house like setting? yes. and so, yeah there's, there's an inherent conflict of interest here that you just can't get past the right. and then the legal profession, legal ethics, just don't address the scenario of the, of a lawyer who works for government agency who actually implemented i was right old address. right? a default to this. that's my client. my client is never wrong. i'm a hired gun. i'll do whatever i can to protect my client. that's good. so here we

are 30 years later. how much am i perception of much dimension? what threatened punch in world in which trust and federal entities other institutions continues to decline. and i'm a post. the job is that why should the client, well joe carson, thank you so much for being with us today. i want to thank you and i want to thank our viewers to patience and persistence. are the keys to every thing. even if it sometimes feels like they constitute, instead the hard work that you have to do after getting tired of the hard work you've already done. still, it's all worth it. even if you have to fight for 30 years, like joe carson did. thanks for joining us for another episode of the whistle blowers i'm john kerry onto we'll see you next time the. 2 2 2 2 the,

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