training the site is designed to resemble a palestinian desert town like han eunice, old gaz, a c t. this is where he's rarely troops prepare for the house to house fighting. they have been engaging since the idea of ground operation kicked off in gaza. really the only to say the enemy, so we want to make sure that that is off. i think they think about it. so it sounds so from that window how you think it was that window, you someone still doing that feeling always the guy that sold your fuel for the all the enemy sold the so if you'll practice this enough, you would be ready to, to fade. if the 55 that you've been with the dilemma on the file folder, but whether everyone in these really army had enough time to practice is a big question. the war started unexpectedly sucking an unprecedented amount of human resources from different backgrounds and levels of readiness. but even the very best training can not to prepare someone for the reality of war,

especially in urban warfare, where experts say experience is the most effective weapons. and this experience of close quarters combat is something these really army has distance from over the past 4 decades following the 1st 11 on one, choosing to rely on intelligence and its air force instead. unfortunately though, the cell get the experience because of 19 they've insight. so i'm sure, and i know that it's the 5th week ending the 8th week, the mold in the same position, talking about friendly fire, talking about to know exactly what each, each one is a to know when to so the, so this takes time of handled today finally, 5 deals with, even if a friendly fire incidents result in death, it is generally not considered a criminal offense of knowledge and i'll decline it's unfortunately,

both of them will what it is. it's not a crime. it's also gonna make that mistake social. it's not the crime. benson gruber says every friendly fire incident should be investigated, but mainly to figure out how to prevent it from happening as often in future. for now, it appears that no one in these really army will be punished for these deadly mistakes . the race notion alt from jerusalem. those are the top stores this our i'm, they show a josh, i'll be back with more at the top of the, our stay without the international the in many cases perhaps and most whistle blowing is clear cut. the issues are simple, the response is simple and the observer who is not steeped in the issue can still understand what the story is, but some cases it wasn't blowing are complicated. the right and wrong of it may not

be hard to understand, but the background, the regulations and the governmental response often is it's a special kind of width of lower. he keeps fighting in these complicated circumstances. it's a special kind of whistle blower who continues to fight for 30 years. i'm john kerry onto welcome to the whistle blowers the . 2 2 2 2 2 2 joe carson was born in brooklyn, new york, and earned a degree in mechanical engineering from the university of rochester. he was in head picked by admiral hyman, rick over the father of the nuclear navy to spend 6 years on a nuclear submarine. in 1982, carson moved into the private sector working as an engineer at several nuclear energy facilities. in 1990 he joined the department of energy as an engineer just one year later in 1991,

carson blew the whistle on wrong doing. for the 1st time. he reported d. o. he was using paid consultants to supplement employees. he argued that this was designed to milk the system d a. we immediately retaliated by declining to implement his safety findings, which detailed serious workplace issues in d, always oak ridge, tennessee, nuclear facilities, putting lives at danger. it took 10 years, but the merits systems protection board found in carson's favor ruling that the department of energy quote retaliated against the appellant because of his whistle blowing by taking away critical duties from his job assignments, issuing letters of admonishment and by reassigning him from his home in tennessee to maryland. this retaliation, not surprisingly resulted in illness and stress, as well as necessitated the appellant to take a large amount of time from work to consult with his attorneys and other advisors. and quote, the we was ordered to pay carson $400000.00 for legal fees and costs,

but the story doesn't end there. frankly, carson's complaints about d a. we were just beginning the m s. p b is an independent clause. i judicial agency in the executive branch of the us government that serves as the guardian of federal merits systems. its mission is to protect the merits systems, principles, and promote and effective federal workforce free of prohibited personnel practices . in other words, it is precisely the place where a federal whistleblower should go to report evidence of waste fraud abuse illegality, or threats to the public health and public safety. but it doesn't necessarily work that way. carson told an interviewer this, he said, my 30 plus here was the blowing story, has essentially 2 parts. the 1st part was against the a we, the 2nd part is against the office of special council and m. s p b. joe carson, welcome to the show. well,

thank you john. it's so wonderful to be here with you and your audience. i wanted to begin jill with a nature of here with the blowing whistle blowing is of course, as i said a minute ago, bringing to light evidence of waste fraud abuse. so a gallery are threats to the public health and public safety. so tell us about how this all started. we're talking about 32 years ago now. what was the nature of your whistle blowing where you have to order for cry, but the time they hired me, it's a department of energy because i had a lot of big, bad experience as a nuclear engineer. i started up several nuclear reactors in the navy and in the commercial world and the department of energy realize they didn't have technically competent people to do oversight of the contractors who actually operate a department energy's facilities. you know, so, and the problem energy is unique in senior, in a number of ways that a lot. so all $300.00 plus federal agencies and that stems from its mission for nuclear weapons called it of corporate advantage. you. but the reality is it's,

it is energy. yes. but energy and nuclear weapons, there's a, there's a big part of what do you, we has been about, you know, it's, it's, it's a successive to live in that project to the se. okay. and one of the biggest singular about the weight is that a self regulating source worker safety when congress passed the workplace of health and safety was in. what 9070 in a well, the agencies exempt themselves from osha's during the distinction that apologize. it was the only agency to do so. so i was how are, in a sense to be in effect that combination, osha, n, o, c inspector with n d a. we with oversight over the waves of the facilities in oak, ridge and elsewhere. and what i found it is um that because of secrecy because of fear of retribution. because honestly because the a we lawyers. ready to put a target anyone's back,

who forced any concerns and get away with it that do we was very unsafe, the facilities and i'm just not, it's not just my conjecture, my whistle blowing in the 1st 10 years of the saga played a positive role in the passage of the war 2000 and the net. ready is entitled the energy employee occupational illness compensation program act up 2000 getting the past with a very close thing. i think by with a boeing another actually is quite a positive perhaps significant. ready in his passage at this point in time, way 2023. over a $135000.00. so i'm or d, we workers or there's a variety spouses have received over $20000000000.00 in compensation. oh my god, being safe and unhealthy. yeah. workplace condition without their knowledge, but that added protection in making and then do we facilities during the cold war 10 and the to that that's how you started though. it was about safety and it was

about safety at the, at the workplace. and when you went, i, i'm even reluctant to say when you went public, but when you reported this, you weren't in that almost immediately with retaliation. what was this, that d a we did to punish you for this was the blowing and i, i'm going to add to, i've known you for a long time. you've always done this exactly the way we are trained to do it. you've always done it within the confines of the law to me, but i have been 9. why don't we? where is this thing institutional? we will now for 30 years. yes. and i think this are and all of us. um. so what is the so yeah, you have to correct that initially they, they suppressed by safety findings because a voice concerns about the use of, of, of, you know, consultants, no support service contractors do you, we have contractors and contractors and, and, and i'm, i'm on usual i mentioned to you we use,

i think send your i'm in the nuclear weapons mission. since you were in being exempt from osha and a c jurisdiction. it's also send your id is relies upon contractors. the term is called go co go co, the acronym i'm going to use, i'm sorry, probably a lot of acronyms go co stands for government own contract operated. so do you, we always use facilities, but it, it is, it has contractors in italy, long term contracts with big corporations to operate to the so what he's thinking that's what. ready the private sector should be doing as opposed to the federal government, but the we then go out, you know, does contract management. but when do we realize that these contractors have been making a ton of money, but dumping a lot of waste, believe it or not, i'm going to open a lot of tangents. if you look at the, the, the debit with of the us government, you know, what? number 3 with the 3rd item on that was the is, i hate to add, simon. and of course for the department of energy. number 3, now estimated a $500000000000.00 and every year we spent $10000000.00 to clean it up. but the,

the estimated cost remaining cleanup goes up. and you know, it's just, it's, it's, it's, you know, it, and this is from the new, another legacy of creating 60000 nuclear weapons, you know, during the cold. ready or more so um okay, okay. so i would say because i've always concerns about the sport service contracts, they started to suppress my safety findings and then put me on what's called a tip, a performance improvement plan. it was pretty amazing because one month i'm getting a for ro, performance evaluation. then i get a special performance evaluation of point $57.00. and it's like college with a 4 point with a 4 point know scale. and my responses i'm breathing isn't worth at least a point 5, you know. right. and over the years, joe, you've had, you've had a number of wins including one early on and which the government was ordered to pay you $400000.00 for your legal fees. why does 0 in the case,

why does your case remain in convention? well okay, it's actually in the 1st 10 years i bill no to was an 8 times. and when i say prevailed, i'm using that more wiggle term o'clock. that the government had to pay my attorney's fees if you had to. but be able to get attorneys fees. okay. so one time i to bill by the end of a settlement, the time i prevailed by the end of unit, the will unit unilaterally with through the, the contests of personal action. and the 3rd time the time you described in the intro was yes, i went on the merits. and additionally, i mentioned the settlement agreement deal. we did not out of the settlement agreement. so in fact, the m as be bigger damage debates with forces that i'm agreement, it must be a great deal. we have not kind of the settlement grant. and in the case you mentioned, do you, we did not honor the order to restore me. so i had to go back to m as b, b to get them as we beats with get ordered dealing with with threatened d a. we to withhold the salaries of

a d. we official if they didn't comply with the order. um okay, so that was the and during this whole time there's another entity and that's the us of the special council. and that's a small obscure agency which is specifically test to protect me from what repeatedly happens to me. right. so i'm going to make a distinction here. do you, we single be out. early on it is, i was, you know, i wish to explain to the very clearly the, the, the wires rules for a was if you will for employment and the. ready and it was kind of like a good fellow, it's kind of a thing, joe, you're a great guy would be just background. you got a nice family, blah, blah, blah. big. oh, got it. hey joe, you're going to do just fine. but let me tell you the rules here, okay? if you, if the we, if it's legal, it's that can be a week if it's legal, it's ethical. and do you wait? if the attorneys get away with it, it's legal. and indeed, a week, the only right you have joe, is the right to seek employment elsewhere. the joe you go to just for okay. right.

okay, flush and then here, when i asked the question, john, yes, is this why i was was still 20000000 people on a new summary and it's right. no, no, not at all. no. and i'm going to see, you know, and, you know, we're going to, you know, and, you know, i'm having an ice life, but they're gonna take me out. you know, i mean, not, not, not all to the back of the head, but not going to be fired. we're going to make this all the way. yeah. okay. and then 30 years later, here we are 30 years later and you're still in the same position then you were 30 years ago. this is 30 years after you begin your whistle blowing. so i know the for about half that for about a half that period, how have the issues changed during that time? and how has the government's response to your whistle blowing changed? or have we ever or have you ever gotten to the point where they've said okay, listen, this has gone on long enough. you're right, we're wrong. we're going to fix this. or have they just double down and fight you this whole time? oh, okay, well let me try to, uh,

you may say i was born in brooklyn. uh, i'm showing here because got it on the screen. hm. but i could find it anyways, my grandfather's ring, he was in new york city farm and put it in front of my nose. i. there it is. okay. and a name for him. a fireman, you know a 100 years ago. but i grew up watching the rest of the world trade center work in high school. i was in a numerous time. you know what it was there. mm hm. so my strongest, and i'm saying, you know, it might be a sort of my strongest initial. and where do we actually 911, release. it wasn't no clear. right? going 1st thing about the corruption in the department of energy, the custodian, america's nuclear stockpile. and the lead federal way to secure a new collapse which it was around the world. okay, good point. so it's personal and i realized that was going down to build a minute ago. do you? we singled me out, reprisals the office special council and failing to protect the time after time

after time did not single me out. we just know the space in the crowd and i realize that the reprisals are experiencing the way the wall breaking out of the space. and do we had causes outside of dealing the failure always to to protect. we enable to do you we attorneys to basically code with a pretty uh personnel specialist and align management to engage reprisal. oh and then we seek discovery. they would invoke the attorney client privilege. you know, you can do that a good cordell can. can lawyers representing a drug cartel section to witness and then a bulk attorney client privilege. right? the kind of deal we the custodial america's looking start. well, crazy. okay. so why am i still here talking you daily attorneys? no, i got dirt on them. so we have kind of a stand off, but i realize the returns can do what they do because low as the attorneys allow them to an image the be with leaders, allow them to sort of 5 d. a. we've heard that we've kind of futile and i saw,

you know, i'm not, i'm not coming, i'm not over stating my reaction, 911, and then like more anxious, i have to take out what take down what was the before breaking through. one of the federal agencies that puts american civilization at a necessarily increased risk of a nuclear $911.00 or other special catastrophe. jo, hold that thought we are speaking with joe carson, an american west of lower from the us department of energy, who has been blowing the whistle on government wrong doing for more than 30 years. stay right there, joe. when we come back, we'll discuss joe car since experience working with and fighting against the federal bureaucracy setup to address with of lower revelations, stating. 2 2 the there's many problems in u. s. society now that they're facing because of the,

their model is again, it's not able to fulfill the expectations of people guessing growth in, in, in, in homelessness, us and growth in poverty. this is a lot of traffic ations on the people who say so that they need to find a way to, to vote for, you know, solving their own problems and not trying to police the world. the, the welcome back to the was the blowers, i'm john curry. onto we're speaking with joe carson, the american was the blower from the us department of energy. joe, good to have you with us are actually going to be back. thank you, joe and joe, to me the, the most complicated aspect of your whistle blowing has been this ongoing interaction with the merit systems production board. the m s p

b. can you explain to us exactly what the m s p b is what its role is in whistle blowing and why you've had to fight it for so many years. let's go back, you know, little bit of history of the federal civil service and i'll try to get just the high points that was created in the 1883 body assassination present. garfield by a disappointed office seeker, prior to that all federal agency inform was patronage based. but there was so much corruption of the grant and the federal agencies or federal government grants, but she was still. ready ready or that there was a push to make a federal employment marriage based on patronage space. the pedals inactivate 2 or 3 created what is being allow the federal civil service, the biggest singles legislative change in that 100. what 40 years right, is a. so there was a format of 1978 and the m s. b b was created in by that was another agency created by the law was the officer, special council and, and some,

several others. but one of this legislative objectives of the civil service or for mac, was to kind of find more that the federal agency employment would be marriage base . not if you will, corruption, guys to look for, you know, if you're not following married at this point in time, you're breaking the law as long as it was corruption from the merits. but it's actually what is the name of it would imply was to protect marriage based employment practices in federal agencies, violations of marriage based stuff before the marriage. principles touched by the agencies, a term prohibited personal practices, which include with a well reprisal or excuse me, the other special council has a positive do 3 to protect federal employees comprehended personal practices, the management section board. and in addition to is clause, i like to do to get the function as a duty to report to the president and congress. whether federal employees are

radically protected from previous pro surprises, including but not limited to which the low reprisal and then the president has the duty. if i'm just the b service, the want to take any action necessary to correct that, right? going to work. right? right. so i would say is a fraud and what i'm saying is destroyed, you might have thought that was for advocates and they would say, well, who is the is good is gets well meaning. and how can you reconcile well meaning with fraud, right? well, you can, in a sense that always do you guys got a 120 employees? the police are federal workforce of 2000000. it just doesn't have the resources. that's right, so it goes all foreigners. so it may be well meaning, but it's no fraud. sure, it's just an ad viable. yeah, it is the same thing on capitol hill where you have these enormous federal departments and then you have a dozen staff members or 2 dozen staff members that are supposed to oversee them. it's just not tunnel. and in your key, right,

this is dragged on for so long that you must have attracted the attention of at least somebody in congress right there. there are committees in both the house and senate that oversee the activities of the department of energy. surely somebody has said something. so what's, what's been the reaction in congress to your whistle blowing? well, the reaction other, say a prison, you know, probably as low as i and they never showed that. but, oh yes. and it would just be, be yours. i kind of still are, but it will kind of get a lot of attention, other staffers, as many other things, congress as the 50 will out. so it's, it's oversight to which the board obviously groups. mm hm. and up. okay. so when i talk to people congress, i say what the whistler odyssey. ready say they really don't want it, they don't say i'm wrong and they don't get involved. yes. and that's kind of discussion. yeah, that's actually been that, that's actually been my understanding of your situation. you and i have

a lot of the same friends in washington, for example, were acquainted with the same the same whistleblower advocacy groups we've worked with with several of the same groups. but um, but when you mentioned the m s p b, there is just sort of glaze over. uh and i, i've often wondered where are these outside groups and all this? why are they not advocating for you and be on the width of lower groups? what about the federal employees unions? why aren't they helping you? why haven't they jumped to your defense? okay, well, option i'll say option a. i'm just an engineer cran. wolf. yeah, there's nothing to say right? correct. so they're not going to, it's right. that's, that's an option. yeah, right. option b, these advocacy groups and others a great watch. so, and so the government blubbering the benefits their business models and that's so much not a very, pretty picture, but is there an option?

see, right, right there really isn't an option you see. besides that, besides suing. all you can do is to continue filing lawsuits. is that right? well, with the board reprisals deals you know, via but that goes and, but it was b b, it's like a real. hm. oh, yeah, i've been, it was a grand or times 4 times. and so there's you can imagine is rid of documentation though. yeah. and is that the paper, any way that says like, with the disclosures lack reasonable belief. and yeah, it's all, it's all about the authorities trying to hide the world. right. yet my case is, and various brands. so there's, there's no other termination of the merits, including the merits of my westport disclosures. so and then you get involved with the, you mentioned the federal 4 years. and then there's a um, they have a vested interest in a worth with. so let's see the numbers to be then unable to have, why?

so because the federal employee use an icon, i'm a member of a board or you know, use the board for union effect around the president of the suit of it. so years ago there opened shop and they cannot require federal employees to pay dues to them. so why would a federal point pay $3.00 to $400.00 a year to do is to a union. right? and bond quote pours the union reps to say, this insurance. what do you mean by insurance? there's something called election of remedy to view a legend. prohibitive, personal practice, yes, you can either file a grievance within the union or you can go to always c m as b b. you can do both. so i've always seen, i'm just be, be a scene is worth was then the, the, the grievance process through the union is, is, you know, relatively better which helps justify payment insurance, money for the dues, right? so the total of 4 years benefits from a broken over say, no matter what, hold on to america, they, you know, they're,

they help set it up so you need memberships, and that's what they were interested in. mm hm. for, you know, an up st. john's legally b, you know, and i'm going to be 70 a few months. i have almost 40 years of federal service. i want to get to know what personal cost $911.00 mission accomplished. they put it by me. okay. yes. so early to see and my wife agreed, i could spend up to a $100000.00 to get a resolution. i was to go to school, your teens, that i have now spend about 25000. but i'm going to put money on the table to say anybody file a complaint against be with the tennessee missouri board. me allegations of with the of the, the wall breaking it always seems to be far or not truth. what object is that i'm going to 0 quite well. and if that, if the, if the 0 boy in tennessee takes any display actually goes, be given you whatever money we've agreed. so it'd be like about to me and i've said just the coffee houses and then return to the respective heads or parent that a m as b b. and the former head of yours is special kind of who is now

a nominee to become a member of m s b b to no response, no response. but there's another risk. there's another angle that is also api. i resend the board members of m. s p b or attorneys. a large majority of employees of always see our attorneys by currently plastics who is required in um you know, attorney clara relationship has been essential to attorneys identity by currently to ethics. if you're a government agency attorney, your employee ac is your clients. hello, kathy. hi. it was a discussion with the licensing authority, the dc bar. she is justified to do whatever you can get away with the prevent any resolution to my visible disclosure, right? in the, in the a protective her clients, the agency that she also leads the agency is supposed to protect the integrity, the federal civil service. can you see where kind of a has like setting? yes. and so, yeah there's, there's an inherent conflict of interest here that you just can't get past the

right. and then the legal profession, legal ethics, just don't address the scenario of the, of a lawyer who works for government agency who actually implemented i was right old address. right? a default to this. that's my client. my client is never wrong. i'm a hired gun. i'll do whatever i can to protect my client. a good. so here we are 30 years later, and i must say my perception, i must admit a somewhat threaten us here in the world, in which trust and in federal end to these other institutions continues to decline . and i'm a post the job as to why it should look like. well, jo carson, thank you so much for being with us today. i want to thank you and i want to thank our viewers to patience and persistence. are the keys to every thing. even if it sometimes feels like they constitute, instead the hard work that you have to do after getting tired of the hard work you've already done. still, it's all worth it. even if you have to fight for 30 years, like joe carson did. thanks for joining us for another episode of the whistle

blowers i'm john kerry onto we'll see you next time. 2 2 2 the acceptance, and i'm here to plan with you whatever you do. do not watch my new show. seriously . why watch something that's so different. whitelisted opinions that he won't get anywhere else. welcome to please or do i have the state department c i a weapons, bankers, multi 1000000000 dollar corporations. choose your fax for you. go ahead. change and whatever you do. don't want marshall state main street because i'm probably going to make you uncomfortable. my show is called stretching, but again,

you probably don't wanna watch it because it might just change the way you the, the u. s. guy resolve and now the strike against the government, the capital of the attack on a hoops the rate of sight comes just dallas after the un security councils emergency meeting on yesterday's at the top. the outrage of the united states and this proxies documents in yemen may result in not only a fully fledged war in this country for the conflict, but despite around the world must go denounces the collision strikes on yemen as reckless and the a violation of international law as russia's you, an invoice says that the west is chris to use force instead of seeking a political solution in indonesia amato still a dorothy with follow.