trying to over taiwan, but i don't think he really wants to lose control of them for allow uh, congressional leaders to, to serve his position. his i'm in a position of foreign policy, especially in an election year when china, us relations will be a key campaign issue. well, what do you, what do you think joseph, about about the send someone to all the voting populace that because the other 2 candidates collectively are holding the majority of the vote, i guess, i guess bring us if you will bring us down to the ground level once the average sentiment among the voters that well, this is the main challenge that you know, more than half of the voters are voting against the d p. b, which has ruled uh thailand for the past 2 years. there's widespread unhappiness, there's polarization in society. if we look at a map of which districts are going blue versus green versus white. so it's a name off of the color is associate with parties. we'll see that a very large portion of our taiwan is not green. um,

and this sense of the sort of polarization that we see not only in taiwan but, but south korea, japan, united states, u. k. a, australia, many other places that are struggling to find a new balance in this, in this new era. but the bottom line is because the opposition split it's both between the 2 p, p and the kmc. and these 2 parties were unable to form an alliance. there were, there were attempts to do this or the last several months, but these failed. this means the opposition display phone, um and uh the, the dvd well when the most number of those, but uh most people will be unhappy with joseph gregory mahoney is a professor of politics and international relations. joining us live from shanghai offering some lights across the selection. it is, it's fascinating to see how this plays out. geo politics and the global chessboard, mr. gregory mr. mahoney. thank you very much for your time. thank you. thank you. us. thanks for joining us here for this program live from moscow,

but just getting warmed up with it was about minus 22 celsius here. put back soon at the top of the hour. the, [000:00:00;00] the in many cases perhaps and most whistle blowing is clear cut. the issues are simple . the responses simple. and the observer who is not steeped in the issue can still understand what the story is. but some cases it was a blowing are complicated, the right and wrong of it may not be hard to understand, but the background, the regulations and the governmental response often is it's a special kind of width of lower. he keeps fighting in these complicated circumstances. it's

a special kind of whistle blower who continues to fight for 30 years. i'm john. carry onto welcome to the whistle blowers the . 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 joe carson was born in brooklyn, new york, and earned a degree in mechanical engineering from the university of rochester. he was in head picked by admiral hyman, rick over the father of the nuclear navy to spend 6 years on a nuclear submarine. in 1982, carson moved into the private sector working as an engineer at several nuclear energy facilities. in 1990 he joined the department of energy as an engineer just one year later in 1991, carson blew the whistle on wrong doing. for the 1st time. he reported d a. we was using paid consultants to supplement employees. he argued that this was designed to milk the system

d a. we immediately retaliated by declining to implement his safety findings, which detailed serious workplace issues in d, always oak ridge, tennessee, nuclear facilities, putting lives in danger. it took 10 years, but the merits systems protection board found in carson's favor ruling that the department of energy quote retaliated against the appellant because of his whistle blowing by taking away critical duties from his job assignments, issuing letters of admonishment and by reassigning him from his home in tennessee to maryland. this retaliation, not surprisingly resulted in illness and stress, as well as necessitated the appellant to take a large amount of time from work to consult with his attorneys and other advisors. and quote, a deal we was ordered to pay carson $400000.00 for legal fees and costs. but the story doesn't end there. frankly, carson's complaints about d a. we were just beginning the m s p b is an independent clause. i do do show agency in the executive branch of the us

government that serves as the guardian of federal merit systems. its mission is to protect the merits systems, principles, and promote and effective federal workforce free of prohibited personnel practices . in other words, it is precisely the place where a federal whistleblower should go to report evidence of waste fraud abuse illegality, or threats to the public health and public safety. but it doesn't necessarily work that way. carson told an interviewer this, he said, my 30 plus here, whistle blowing story has essentially 2 parts. the 1st part was against d. a. we. the 2nd part is against the office of special council and m. s p b. joe carson, welcome to the show. well, thank you john. it's so wonderful to be here with you and your audience. i wanted to begin jill with a nature of here with the blowing whistle blowing is of course, as i said a minute ago, bringing to light evidence of waste, fraud, abuse, still a gallery or threats to the public health and public safety. so tell us about how

this all started. we're talking about 32 years ago now. what was the nature of your whistle blowing where you have to order for cry, but the time they hired me, it's a department of energy because i had a lot of didn't quite experience as a nuclear engineer. i started up several nuclear reactors in the navy and in the commercial world, as in the department of energy realize they didn't have technically competent people to do oversight of the contractors who actually operate a department energy's facilities. you know, so in the problem energy is unique in seen you are in a number of ways that a lot. so all $300.00 plus federal agencies and that stems from its mission for nuclear weapons called the department of energy. but the reality is it's, it is energy. yes. but energy and nuclear weapons are just a big part of what do you, we has been about, you know, it's, it's, it's a successive to live in that project to the se. okay. and um,

one of the biggest singular about the weight is that a self regulating source worker safety. when congress passed the workplace of health and safety, what and what 1970, in a well, agencies exempt themselves from oceans during the distinction. part of the engine was the only agency to do so. so i was how are, in a sense to be in effect that combination, osha, n, o, c inspector with n d a. we with oversight over the waves of the facilities in oak ridge and elsewhere. and what i found is that because of secrecy because of fear of retribution, because honestly because the a we lawyers would put a target anyone's back. who force any concerns and get away with it that do we. ready is very unsafe, the facilities and i'm just not, it's not just my conjecture, my whistle going in the 1st 10 years of the saga, played

a positive role in the passage of the 2000 and the net, the, to the why is entitled the energy employee occupational illness compensation program act up to 1000, getting the past with a very close thing. i think by, with a boeing and other actions quite a positive, perhaps significant role in his passage. at this point in time, way, 2023. over a $135000.00 former d. we workers or there's a variety spouses have received over $20000000000.00 and compensation. oh my god, being safe and unhealthy. yeah. workplace condition without their knowledge, without added protection in making and then do we facilities during the cold war 10 and the to that that's how you started though. it was about safety and it was about safety at the, at the workplace. and when you went, i, i'm even reluctant to say when you went public, but when you reported this,

you weren't in that almost immediately with retaliation. what was this, that d a we did to punish you for this was the blowing and, and i, i'm going to add to, i've known you for a long time. you've always done this exactly the way we are trained to do it. you've always done it within the confines of the law to me. right now i've been non laterally resisting is additional evil now for 30 years. yes. and i think this are and all of us. um, so the so yeah, you have to correct that initially they, they suppressed by safety findings because a voicemail sounds about the use of, of, of you know, consultants, no support service contractors do you we have contractors and contractors and i'm, i'm unusual. i mentioned to you we use, i think single word i'm in the nuclear weapons mission since you were in being exempt from osha and and received your a sticks and it's also send your is relies upon contractors. the term is called go co go co with the acronym i'm going to use, i'm sorry, probably

a lot of acronyms go co stands for government own contract to operate. so do you, we always use facilities, but it, it is, it has contractors or the long term contracts with big corporations to operate to the so what he's thinking that's. ready ready the private sector should be doing as opposed to the federal government, but the we then go out, you know, it does contract management. but when do we realize that these contractors have been making a ton of money, but dumping a lot of waste, believe it or not, i'm going to open a lot of tangents. if you look at the, the, the debit waste of the us government, you know, what number 3 was. the 3rd item on that was this, i hate to add, simon. it costs for the department of energy. number 3. now which the made of the $500000000000.00 and every year we, we spent $10000000.00 to clean it up. but the, the estimated cost remaining cleanup goes up. and, you know, it's just, it's, it's, it's, you know, it is it. and this is from the new another legacy you creating 60000 nuclear weapons, you know, during the cold. ready or more now?

um. okay. okay, so i was a because i voiced concerns about the sport service contractors. they started to suppress my safety findings and then put me on what's called a tip, a performance improvement plan. it was pretty amazing because one month i'm getting a $4.00 oh performance evaluation. then i get a special performance evaluation of point $57.00. and it's like college with a 4 point with a 4 point know scale. and my responses i'm breathing isn't worth at least a point 5, you know. right. and over the years, joe, you've had, you've had a number of wins, including one early on in which the government was ordered to pay you $400000.00 for your legal fees. why the zeros lowercase? why does your case remain in convention? well, okay. it's actually in the 1st 10 years, i have a bill notes here with an 8 times. and when i say prevailed, i'm using that more legal term before that the government had to pay my attorney's

fees because you had to put out a good attorney's fees. okay. so one time i, pavel by the end of a settlement, the time i prevailed by the end of unit the we unit unit, laterally withdrew the the contents of personal action. and the 3rd time the time you described in the intro was yes, i went on the merits in additionally, i mentioned the settlement agreement, the we did not out of the settlement agreement. so in fact, the image be damaged, the beats with forces set them agreement, and it must be a great deal. we have not out of the settlement group and in the case you mentioned do you, we did not honestly. ready order to restore me. so i had to go back to m as the b to get there must be beats with get ordered dealy. with, with threatened d a. we to withhold the salaries of a d. we official if they didn't comply with the order. um. okay, so that was the, during this whole time, there's another entity and that's the us of the special council. and that's

a small obscure agency which is specifically test to protect me from what repeatedly happens to me. right. so i'm going to make a distinction here. do you, we single be out. early on it is, i was, you know, i wish to explain to the very clearly the, the, the wires rules for a was if you will, for employment to be a way. and it was kind of like a good fellow. it's kind of a thing, joe, you're a great guy. what did your background, you got a nice family, blah, blah, blah, blah. when i got it. hey joe, you want to do just fine, but let me tell you the rules here. okay. if you, if deal we, if it's legal is that can be a week if it's legal, it's that go into your way. if the attorneys get away with it, it's legal. and indeed we the only way you have joe is the right to seek employment elsewhere. the joe, you go to just for ok. right. okay. and then here, when i asked the question, john, yes, is this why was was still 20000000 people on a new summary and the it's right. no, no, not at all. nope. and we're going to see you then, you know, we're going to, you know, and you know, i'm having an ice life,

but they're gonna take me out. you know, i mean, not, not, not go to the back of the head, but not going to be fired. we're going to make this all the way. yeah. okay. and then 30 years later, here we are 30 years later and you're still in the same position then you were 30 years ago. this is 30 years after you begin your whistle blowing. so i know to about half that for about half that period, how have the issues changed during that time? and how has the government's response to your whistle blowing changed? all right, have we ever or have you ever gotten to the point where they've said okay, listen, this has gone on long enough. you're right, we're wrong. we're going to fix this, or have they just double down and fight you this whole time? oh, okay, well let me try to, um, you may say i was born in brooklyn. i'm showing here. that'd be good on the screen . me like a file anyways my grandfather's ring. he was in new york city farm and put it in

front of my nose. i, there it is. okay. and a name for him, a fireman, you know, a 100 years ago. but i grew up watching the rest of the world, the rates that are walking to high school. i was in the numerous time, you know what it was there. mm. hm, so my strongest and i'm saying, you know, and that might be a sort of my strongest initial. and where do we actually 911, release. it wasn't no clear. right? going 1st out, the corruption in the department of energy, the custodian, america's nuclear stockpile, and the lead federal way, is it securing new collapse materials around the world? ok. good point. so it's personal and i realized that was going down to build a minute ago. do you we singled me out, reprisals the offer, special counsel and failing to protect the time after time after time did not single me out. we just know the space in the crowd and i realize that the reprisals are experiencing the we the love breaking our experience and do we had causes

outside of deal with the failure always to, to protect me enabled the we attorneys to basically conclude with a pretty uh, personnel specialist and align management to engage reprisal. oh and then we seek discovery. they would invoke the attorney client privilege. you know, you didn't do that a good cordell. can lawyers representing a drug cartel section to witness and then a bulk attorney client privilege, right? that kind of deal we, the custodian of america is looking stockwell creek. okay. so why am i still here? so what can you do? we attorneys? no, i got dirt on them. and so we have kind of a stand off, but i realize the returns can do what they do because low as the attorneys allow them to an image the be with readers, allow them to sort of 5 d a. we further, we've kind of futile and i so you know, i'm not, i'm not coming, i'm not always staying my reaction, 911, and then like more anxious, i have to take out what take down what was the before breaking through and of a federal agency that puts american civilization at

a necessarily increased risk of a nuclear $911.00 or other special. it's asked jo, hold that thought we are speaking with joe carson, an american west of lower from the us department of energy, who has been blowing the whistle on government wrong doing for more than 30 years. stay right there, joe. when we come back, we'll discuss joe carson's experience working with and fighting against the federal bureaucracy set of to address with of lower revelations, stating. 2 2 2 2 the russian states never is as tight as i'm sort of the most sense community. most all sense i'm at the, in the 65 to 5 must be the one else calls question about this,

even though we will then in the european union, the kremlin media mission, the state on the russians coding and split the r t spoke neck, even our video agency, roughly all the band on youtube, the payment services for the question, did you say stephen twist, which is the of the welcome back to the list of lawyers. i'm john curry, onto we're speaking with joe carson, the american was the blower from the us department? of energy, joe. good to have you with us. thank you. good. it's good feedback. thank you joe and joe, to me the,

the most complicated aspect of your whistle blowing has been this ongoing interaction with the merit systems production board. the m s p b. can you explain to us exactly what the m s p b is what it's role is in wisdom blowing and why you've had to fight it for so many years. let's go back, you know, little bit of history of the federal civil service and i'll try to get just the high points that was created in the 1883 chloe association present. garfield by a disappointed office seeker, prior to that all federal agency form was paid soon as base. but it was so much corruption on a grads and the federal agencies or the federal government grants. but she was still. ready ready or that there was a push to make a federal employment marriage based on patronage space. the pedals inactivate 2 or 3 created. what does it allow the fed. ready civil service, the biggest singles legislative change in that 140 years, right? is a so there was

a form act of 1978. and the m s. b b was created in by that was another agency created by the law was the officer special council. and, and some, several others. but one of this legislative objectives of the civil service or for mac was to kind of find more that the federal agency employment would be marriage base. not if you will, corruption guys to look for, you know, if you're not following married at this point in time, you're breaking the law. so i'm going to send those corruption the of the merits. but it's actually what is the name of it would imply was to protect virus based employment practices in federal agencies, violations of marriage based before the marriage principles typed by the agency is a term for anybody personal practices which include with a well reprisals. excuse me. the other special council has a positive do 3 to protect federal employees comprehended personal practices, the management section board. and in addition to is clause,

i like to do to get the function as a duty to report to the president and congress. whether federal employees are radically protected from fraser 1st practice, including but not limited to whistle reprisals. and then the president has the duty pharmacy besides the want to take any action necessary to correct it. right? going to work. right. right. so oh, it seems a fraud. and what i'm saying is destroyed your mind. so after we spell it out of the goods and they would say, well, who is c as good as well? meaning and how can you reconcile well meaning with fraud, right? well, you can, in a sense that co c has got a 120 employees. the police are federal workforce of 2000000. it just doesn't have the resources. that's right. so it goes all corners. so it may be more meetings, but it's still for sure. it just as a bible. yeah. the same thing on capitol hill where you have these enormous federal departments and then you have

a dozen staff members or 2 dozen staff members that are supposed to oversee them. it's just not tenable. and in your k right. this is dragged on for so long that you must have attracted the attention of at least somebody in congress right there. there are committees in both the house and senate that oversee the activities of the department of energy. yeah, surely somebody has said something. so what's, what's been the reaction in congress to your whistle blowing a, well, the reaction other, say a person, you know, probably as low as i and they have a show that but, oh yes. and it would just be be, or a tiny bit of stuart. but it will tend to get a lot of attention out of sappers. as many other things, congress says 50 will outsource, is oversight to which the board advocacy group. mm hm. and oh, okay. mm hm. so when i talk to people, and as i say, what the westport odyssey group say, they really don't want to, they don't say i'm wrong, but they don't get involved. yes. and that's kind of discuss you. yeah,

that's actually been that that's actually been my understanding of your situation. you and i have a lot of the same friends in washington, for example, were acquainted with the same the same whistleblower advocacy groups we've worked with with several of the same groups. but um, but when you mentioned the m s p b, their eyes just sort of glaze over it. and i, i've often wondered where are these outside groups and all this? why are they not advocating for you and be on the width of lower groups? what about the federal employees unions? why aren't they helping you? why haven't they jumped to your defense? okay, well option option a i'm just going into your cran wolf. yeah, there's nothing to say right? correct. so they're not gonna, it's right that's, that's an option. all right, option b, these advocacy groups and others, a great west,

oregon. so the government, blubbering the benefits their business models and not so much. mm hm. not a very, pretty picture, but is there an option? see, right, right there really isn't an option you see, besides that, besides suing, all you can do is to continue filing lawsuits. is that right? well, with the reprise of appeals, you know, via but that goes if i am as b b, it's like a real me. oh, yeah, i've been, it was a grand 4 times 4 times. and so there's, you can imagine is risk of documentation though. yeah, it is out of paper, any way that says like, with a bar disclosures lack reasonable police? yeah, it's all, it's all about the authorities trying to hide the wall. right? yet my case is on various brands. so there's, there's no other termination of the merits, including the merits of my west motors, motors. so, and then you get involved with the, you mentioned federal employee years. and then there's a, um, they have

a vested interest in a work for so we'll see that the numbers to be then unable to have why? so because the federal employee use the nighttime. i'm a member of a board or, you know, use the board for union effect of rep from the president of it. it was a suit of it. so years ago there opened shop and they cannot require federal employees to pay dues to them. so why would a federal point pay $3.00 to $400.00 a year to do is to a union right? then bond quote pours the union reps to say it's insurance. what do you mean by insurance? there's something called election to remedy to view a wedge of prohibitive personal practice. and yes, you can either file a grievance within the union or you can go to always cm's b b you can do both. so of always, the numbers can be a scene is worthless, then the, if the, the grievance process through the union is, is, you know, relatively better which helps justify pay that insurance money for the dues. right?

so the federal employees benefit from a broken over, say, no matter what, hold on to america, they, you know, they're, they help set it up so you need memberships, and that's what they're interested in. mm hm. for, you know, an up st. john's legally b, you know, and i'm going to be 70 a few months, have almost 40 years of federal service. i want to get this, you know, what personal costs 911 mission accomplished. they put it behind me. okay. yes. so early this year, my wife agreed, i could spend up to a $100000.00 to get a resolution. i was to go to school, your teens, that i have now spend about 25000. but i'm going to put money on the table to say anybody file a complaint against be with the tennessee is very board me allegations of with the of the, the wall breaking it always seems to be, are or not true to an object is that i'm going to 0 quite well. and if that, if the, if the 0 boy in tennessee say, sorry, display actually goes to be a gives you whatever money we've agreed to. it'd be like about me. and i've said

just the coffee houses and then return to the respective heads or parent that a hermas bb. and the former head of the over the special council is now a nominee to become a member of m. s b, b to no response, no response. but there's another risk, there's another angle that is also got the average, the board members of m s p b, or attorneys, a large majority of employees of always see our attorneys. mm hm. by currently plastics. who is your clients in? um, in the, you know, attorney clare relationship has been essential to attorneys identity by currently do ethics. if you're a government agency attorney, your employee ac is your client. hello kathy. hi. it was a discussion with the licensing authority. the dc bar. she is just the 5 digit, whatever she can get away with the prevent any resolution. somebody with a bonus board, you're right in the protective her clients, the agency that she also leads the agency is supposed to protect the integrity of

federal civil service. did you see where kind of a, how succeeding? yes, and so, yeah there's, there's an inherent conflict of interest here that you just can't get past the right. and then the legal profession, legal ethics, just don't address the scenario of the, of a lawyer who works for government agency who actually implemented i was right old address. right? a default to this. that's my client. my client is never wrong. i'm a hired gun. i'll do whatever i can to protect my client. yes. so here we are 30 years later, and i must say my perception, i must have made some what's written in world in which trust them in federal and so these other institutions continues to decline. and i'm gonna post the job as to why it should decline. well, jo carson, thank you so much for being with us today. i want to thank you and i wanna thank our viewers to patience and persistence are the keys to every thing. even if it sometimes feels like they constitute, instead the hard work that you have to do after getting tired of the hard work you've already done. still,

it's all worth it. even if you have to fight for 30 years, like joe carson did. thanks for joining us for another episode of the whistle blowers i'm john kerry onto we'll see you next time. 2 2 the part number to have tests and i'm here to plan with you whatever you do. do not watch my new show. seriously. why watch something that's so different whitelisted opinions that he won't get anywhere else. what could i please or do you have the state department c, i a weapons, bankers, multi 1000000000 dollar corporations. choose your fax for you. go ahead, change and whatever you do. don't want my show stay main street because i'm probably going to make you uncomfortable. my show is called stretching time, but again,

you probably don't want to watch it because it might just change the way you the headlines on our t as the us is on the war policy yet again, yelman's capital is on the file, just our software and un security council emergency meeting off of friday's initial attack. soon with an easier a march of solidarity with palestine marking nearly $100.00 days of the war and gaza as protests kick off the world wide, demanding israel and the violence. also in the program, the us state depaula confirms the death of a chill, a in american john list in ukraine. the man's father says he was tortured to death in prison for his criticism. presidents, the landscape and the poles have closed and counting is on the way in taiwan and