the prisoner, one of our strongest allies. well you, you lost me with the perhaps. and if this is true, i think i'd want to verify those reports before i commented on in some ways more questions than answers. you know what it goes out of staying in the halls, in the midst of this a brutal crack down on free speech. gonzalo that was very brave and some would say no, evenly, still that challenging the regime. and it seems he's taking a big risk and maybe pay the price for that. and we get your opinion on this with legal and media analyst line. you know, what's fascinating is the selective interest as to who is arrested. who's not remember. there was a basketball player whitney trying to rest here. russia for allegedly had violated drug large. it was the end of the world here. we've got together by can people say who brittney greiner? who's that? but for some reason, that was that disc after he did the attention. how, how could they not thinking over backwards to return immediately or to help the the citizen of a country who's that was not that a major?

well, i probably the only, anyway, i don't know. i have no idea why. why is he and of such disinterest? could he be a part of this since he was at a ukrainian or, or pro russian or a put an apologist. well knows, remember that best, you know, we go through these things here where if you think the wrong thing, we hate you are you are a vaccination, you're you for a deny or are you an anti back, sir? are you what? you get a new are you what conspiracy theorist is that it or you are? i mean, are you are russo file if you pick the wrong side and you're in front of the wrong crowd. they will dismiss you for you to being baseless. if however, you get it right, if you happen to get the right crowd right victim and the right argument, then you're a hero and you will be met with a claim. it should be going on forever. it's not all a double standard is like a triple state. all right,

thanks for joining us here. and i'll tell you your top stories returning in about half an hours time. the in the, in many cases, perhaps in most whistle blowing is clear cut. the issues are simple. busy and the response is simple, and the observer who is not speak to the issue can still understand what the story is. but some cases it wasn't blowing are complicated. the right and wrong of it may not be hard to understand, but the background, the regulations and the governmental response often is it's a special kind of whistleblower he keeps fighting in these complicated circumstances. it's a special kind of whistle blower who continues to fight for 30 years. i'm john.

carry onto welcome to the whistle blowers the . 2 2 2 2 2 2 the. 2 2 joe carson was born in brooklyn, new york, and earned a degree in mechanical engineering from the university of rochester. he was in head picked by admiral hyman, rick over the father of the nuclear navy to spend 6 years on a nuclear submarine. in 1982, carson moved into the private sector working as an engineer at several nuclear energy facilities. in 1990 he joined the department of energy as an engineer just one year later in 1991, carson blew the whistle on wrong doing. for the 1st time. he reported d a. we was using paid consultants to supplement employees. he argued that this was designed to milk the system d a. we immediately retaliated by declining to implement his safety findings,

which detailed serious workplace issues. in d, a we oak ridge, tennessee, nuclear facilities, putting lives at danger. it took 10 years, but the merits systems protection board found in carson's favor ruling that the department of energy quote retaliated against the appellant because of his whistle blowing by taking away critical duties from his job assignments, issuing letters of admonishment and by reassigning him from his home in tennessee to maryland. this retaliation, not surprisingly resulted in illness and stress, as well as necessitated the appellant to take a large amount of time from work to consult with his attorneys and other advisors. and quote, or did we was order to pay carson for $100000.00 for legal fees and costs. but the story doesn't end there. frankly, carson's complaints about d a. we were just beginning the m s. p b is an independent clause. i judicial agency in the executive branch of the us

government that serves as the guardian of federal merits systems. its mission is to protect the merits systems, principles, and promote and effective federal workforce free of prohibited personnel practices . in other words, it is precisely the place where a federal whistleblower should go to report evidence of waste fraud abuse illegality, or threats to the public health and public safety. but it doesn't necessarily work that way. person told an interviewer this, he said my 30 plus here was the blowing story, has essentially 2 parts. the 1st part was against the a we, the 2nd part is against the office of special council and m. s. p b. joe carson, welcome to the show. well, thank you john. it's so wonderful to be here with you and your audience. i wanted to begin jill with a nature of here with the blowing whistle blowing is of course, as i said a minute ago, bringing to light evidence of waste fraud abuse. so it gallery or threats to the public health and public safety. so tell us about how this all started. we're

talking about 32 years ago now. what was the nature of your whistle blowing where you have to order for cry, but the time they hired me, it's a department of energy because i had a lot of dicks but experience as a nuclear engineer. i started up several nuclear reactors in the navy and in the commercial world and the department of energy realize they didn't have technically competent people to do oversight of the contractors who actually operate a department energy's facilities. you know, so in the problem of energy is unique in senior, in a number of ways of deluxe to all $300.00 plus federal agencies. and that stems from its mission for nuclear weapons called it of corporate advantage. you. but the reality is it's, it is energy. yes. but energy and nuclear weapons is a, is a big part of what do you, we has been about, you know, it's, it's, it's a successive to live in that project to the se. okay. and one of the biggest things,

what about, do you wait? is that a self regulating source worker safety when congress passed the workplace of health and safety was in what 9070, you know, well, agencies exempt themselves from osha's during the distinction that apologize. it was the only agency to do so. so i was how are, in a sense to be in effect that combination, osha, n, o, c inspector with n d a we with oversight over do we use a facilities in oak ridge and elsewhere? and what i found it is um that because of secrecy because of fear of retribution. because honestly because the a we lawyers. ready to put a target anyone's back for us, any concerns and get away with it that do we was very unsafe, the facilities and i'm just not, it's not just my conjecture, my whistle blowing in the 1st 10 years of the saga played

a positive role in the passage of the war 2000 and the net. ready is entitled the energy employee occupational illness compensation program act up 2000 getting the test was a very close thing i think by with a boeing another actually is quite a positive perhaps significant. ready in his passage, at this point in time, way 2023. over a $135000.00 former d. we workers or their surviving spouses have received over $20000000000.00 in compensation. oh my god, being safe and unhealthy. yeah. workplace condition without their knowledge, but that added protection in making and then do we facilities during the cold war 10 and the to that that's how you started though. it was about safety and it was about safety at the, at the workplace. and when you went, i, i'm even reluctant to say when you went public, but when you reported this, you weren't in that almost immediately with retaliation. what was this,

that d a we did to punish you for this was the blowing and i, i'm going to add to, i've known you for a long time. you've always done this exactly the way we are trained to do it. you've always done it within the confines of the law to me, but i have been non laterally resisting institutional legal now for 30 years. yes. and i think this or and all of us. um, so the so yeah, you have to correct that initially they, they suppressed by safety findings because a voice concerns about the use of, of, of you know, consultants no support service contractors deal. we have contractors and contractors and, and, and i'm, i'm on usual. i mentioned to you we use, i think single we're, i'm in the nuclear weapons mission. since you were in being exempt from osha and a seizure section. it's also send your id is relies upon contractors. the term is called go co go, co acronym i'm going to use, i'm sorry, probably

a lot of acronyms go codes stands for government own contract to operate it. so do you, we always use facilities, but it, it is, it has contractors in, in a long term contracts with big corporations to operate that the so what he's thinking that's what. ready the private sector should be doing as opposed to the federal government, but the we then go out, you know, does contract management. but when do we realize that these contractors have been making a ton of money, but dumping a lot of waste, believe it or not. and i'm going to open a lot of tangents. if you look at the, the, the debit with of the us government, you know, what number 3 was. the 3rd item on that was the is, i hate tab. i meant it for us for the department of energy. number 3, now estimated $500000000000.00 and every year we spent $10000000.00 to clean it up . but the, the estimated cost remaining cleanup goes up. you know, it's just, it's, it's, it's, you know, it's, it, it, and this is from the new, another legacy. you creating 60000 nuclear weapons, you know, during the cold. ready or more so um okay,

okay. so i would say because i've always concerns about the sport service contracts, they started to suppress my safety findings and then put me on what's called a tip, a performance improvement plan. it was pretty amazing because one month i'm getting a 4 ro, performance evaluation that i get a special performance evaluation of point $57.00. and it's like college with a 4 point with a 4 point know scale. and my responses i'm breathing isn't worth at least a point 5, you know. right. and over the years, joe, you've had, you've had a number of wins, including one early on and which the government was ordered to pay you $400000.00 for your legal fees. why does your rare case? why does your case remain in convention? well, okay. it's actually in the 1st 10 years i have available to you within a time. and when i say prevailed, i'm using that more wiggle term o'clock. that the government had to pay my

attorney's fees if you had to. but be able to get an attorney's fees. okay. so one time i, pavel by the end of a settlement, the time i prevailed by the end of unit the we unit unit laterally with through the, the contents of personal action. and the 3rd time the time you described in the, in the intro was yes, i went on the merits in additionally, i mentioned the son of agreement, the we did not out of the settlement agreement. so in fact, the image be a good image. the beats with forces set them agreement and must be agree the we have not out of the settlement where and in the case you mentioned do you, we did not honestly. ready order to restore me. so i had to go back to m as the b to get them as we beats with get order dealing with with threatened d a. we to withhold the salaries of a d. we official if they didn't comply with the order. um okay, so that was the and during this whole time there's another entity and that's the us of the special council. and that's a small obscure agency which is specifically test to protect me from what

repeatedly happens to me. right. so i'm going to make a distinction here. do you, we single be out. early on it is, i was, you know, i was to explain to the very clearly the, the, the wires rules for a was if you will, for employment to be a way. and it was kind of like a good fellow. it's kind of a thing, joe, you're a great guy. what did your background you got a nice family level about. oh, got it. hey joe, you're going to do just fine. but let me tell you the rules here, okay? if you, if do we, if it's legal, it's that can be a weak. if it's legal, it's that go into your way. if the attorneys get away with it, it's legal and it'd be a week the only way you have joe is the right to seek employment elsewhere. the joe you go to just fine. okay, right. okay, flush and then here we added the question, john, yes, is this, why was we still 20000000 people on a new summary and the it's right. no, no, not at all. nope. and i'm going to see you then, you know, i'm going to, you know,

and you know, i'm having an ice life, but they're gonna take me out. you know, i mean, not, not, not going to the back of the head, but not going to be fired. we're going to make this all the way. yeah. okay. and then 30 years later, here we are 30 years later and you're still in the same position then you were 30 years ago. this is 30 years after you begin your whistle blowing. so i know the for about half that for about a half that period, how have the issues changed during that time? and how is the government's response to your whistle blowing changed? i have we ever or have you ever gotten to the point where they've said okay, listen, this has gone on long enough. you're right, we're wrong. we're going to fix this or have they just double down and fight you this whole time? oh, okay, well let me try to, um, you may say i was born in brooklyn. uh, i'm showing here that they got it on the screen. me like a file anyways, my grandfather's ring. he was in new york city farm and put it in front of my nose . i. there it is. okay. and a name for him. a fireman, you know

a 100 years ago. but i grew up watching the rest of the world trade center work in high school. i was in a numerous time. you know what it was there. mm hm. so my strongest, and i'm saying, you know, it might be a sort of my strongest initial. and what else do we actually 911, release. it wasn't no clear. right? going 1st. how's the corruption in the department of energy or the custodian, america's nuclear stockpile, and the lead federal way to secure a new collab switch. it was around the world. ok. good point, so it's personal and i realized that was going down to spend a minute ago. do you? we singled me out, reprisals the always special council and failing to protect the time after time after time did not single but yeah, i was just another space in the crowd and i realize that the reprisals are experiencing the way the war breaking out of the space and do we had causes outside

of deal with the failure always to to protect me enabled to do we attorneys to basically code with a pretty uh personnel specialist and align management to engage reprisal? oh and then we seek discovery. they would invoke the attorney client privilege. you know, you can do that a good cordell can. can lawyers representing a drug cartel section to witness soneta polk attorney client privilege. right. the kind of deal we the custodial america's looking start. well, crazy. okay. so why am i still here? so what can you do? we attorneys? no, i got dirt on them. and so we have kind of a stand off, but i realize the returns can do what they do. because low as the attorneys allow them to an image to be with readers, allow them to sort of 5 d a we for that was kind of futile. and i saw, you know, i'm not, i'm not coming. i'm not overstating my reaction, 911. and then like more anxious, i have to take out what take down, what was the this, what breaking through and of a federal agency that puts american civilization at a,

necessarily increased risk of a new cri, 911 or other special catastrophe. jo, hold that thought. we are speaking with joe carson, an american west of lower from the us department of energy, who has been blowing the whistle on government wrong doing for more than 30 years. stay right there, joe. when we come back, we'll discuss joe carson's experience working with and fighting against the federal bureaucracy setup to address with the blower revelations, stating. 2 the question, i mean, you cleared up, she was

the most schools do, if you look on the initial do 1 o'clock significantly post on zillow, while it be almost getting used to play, what do you do or to by the office the was done, the newest frame on the belief systems to good ludy what i see these the buses, the little cute little dyson says this and uh, tutorial on both of the the welcome back to the whistle blowers and john curry onto we're speaking with joe carson, the american was the blower from the us department of energy, joe. good to have you with us. actually. good. it's good feedback. thank you joe and joe, to me the, the most complicated aspect of your whistle blowing has been this ongoing

interaction with the merits systems production board. the m s p b. can you explain to us exactly what the m s p b is what its role is in whistle blowing and why you've had to fight it for so many years. let's go back, you know, little bit of history of the federal civil service and i'll try to get just the high points that was created in the 1883 body assassination of present. garfield by a disappointed office seeker, prior to that all federal agency inform was adrian his base. but there was so much corruption of the grant and the federal agencies or the federal government to grow as much as a civil. ready or that there was a push to make a federal employment marriage based on patronage space. the pedals inactivate 2 or 3 created. what does it allow the fed. ready civil service, the biggest singles legislative change in that 140 years and right is a sub service of form and act of 1978. and the m s. b,

b was created in by that was another agency created by the law was the officers special council and, and some, several others. but one of this legislative objective, so the civil search or format was to kind of find more is that federal agency employment would be marriage base? not if you will, corruption of the store for, you know, if you're not falling married at this point in time, you're breaking the law as long as corruption from the merits, which actually board is the name and it would imply was to protect marriage based employment practices. in federal agencies, violations of marriage based before the marriage principles typed by the agency is a term by anybody personal practices which include with a well reprisals. excuse me. the other special council has a positive do 3 to protect federal employees comprehended personal practices the american. but it's actually bought it in addition to is clause,

i like to do to get the function as a duty to report to the president and congress. whether federal employees are radically protected from favorite pros prices including but not limited to which the low reprisal and then the president has the duty feminist to b sales the want to take any action necessary to correct it, right on a lot. right? right. so, oh, it seems a fraud and what i'm saying is destroyed, you might have thought that was for advocates and they would say, well, who is the is good is it's well meaning. and how can you reconcile well meaning with fraud, right? well, you can, in the sense that a o s c has got a 120 employees, the police are federal workforce of 2000000. it just doesn't have the resources. that's right. so it goes all foreigners. so it may be well meaning, but it's still a fraud. sure. it just is a bible. yeah, it is the same thing on capitol hill where you have these enormous federal departments and then you have

a dozen staff members or 2 dozen staff members that are supposed to oversee them. it's just not tenable. and in your key, right, this is dragged on for so long that you must have attracted the attention of at least somebody in congress, right. their, their committees in both the house and senate that oversee the activities of the department of energy. yeah, surely somebody has said something. so what's, what's been the reaction in congress to your whistle blowing? well, the reaction of this papers and, you know, probably as low as i never showed that, but, oh yes. and it would just be, be yours. i kind of still are, but it will tend to get a lot of attention out of sappers has many other things. congress says a 50 will out, so it's, it's oversight to which the vote obviously groups end up. okay. so when i talk to people congress, i say what the whistler odyssey. ready say they really don't want it, they don't say i'm wrong and they don't get involved. yes. and that's kind of

discuss you. yeah, that's actually been that that's actually been my understanding of your situation. you and i have a lot of the same friends in washington, for example, were acquainted with the same the same whistleblower advocacy groups we've worked with with several of the same groups. but um, but when you mentioned the m s p b, there is just sort of glaze over. uh and i, i've often wondered where are these outside groups and all this? why are they not advocating for you and beyond the width of lower groups? what about the federal employees unions? why aren't they helping you? why haven't they jumped to your defense? okay, well option option a i'm just an inch here. cran. wolf. yeah, there's nothing to say right? correct. so they're not going to. it's right that's, that's an option. all right, option b, these advocacy groups and others, a great west organs of the government,

blubbering the benefits their business models. and that's so much. hm. not a very, pretty picture, but is there an option say, right, right, there really isn't an option. the same besides that besides suing. all you can do is to continue filing lawsuits. is that right? well, with the reprise of appeals, you know, via but that goes and 1st name is b b is that like a real. hm. oh, yeah, i've been, it was a grand 4 times 4 times. and so there's, you can imagine there's reads of documentation though. yeah. and is that paper, any way that says like, with a bar disclosures, lack reasonable belief. and yeah, it's all, it's all about the authorities trying to hide the world. right? yet my case is and various brands. so there's, there's no other termination of the merits, including the merits of my west motors, motors. so, and then you get involved with the emission federal 4 years. and then there's a, um, they have a vested interest in a worthwhile. so let's see,

for the numbers to be then unable to have why? so, because the federal employee use an icon. i'm a member of a board or you know, use the board for union effect. i ran from the president of it. it was a suit of it. so years ago there opened shop and they cannot require federal employees to pay dues to them. so why would have federal way pay $3.00 to $400.00 a year to do is to a union. right? and bond quote pours the union reps to say, this insurance. what do you mean by insurance? there's something called election of remedy to view a wedge of prohibitive personal practice. and yes, you can either file a grievance within the union or you can go to always cm's b, b. you can do both. so of always the numbers could be a scene is worth was. then the, if the grievance process through the union is, is, you know, relatively better which helps justify favorite insurance money for the dues, right?

so federal employees benefit from a broken over say, no matter what, hold on to america they, you know, they're, they help set it up so you need memberships, and that's what they're interested in. mm hm. for, you know, and up st. john's only going to be, you know, and i'm going to be 70 a few of us have almost 40 years of federal service. i want to get to know what personal cost 911 mission accomplished and put it behind me. okay. yes. so early to see and my wife agreed, i could spend up to a $100000.00 to get a resolution. i was to go to school, your teens, that i have now spend about 25000. but i'm going to put money on the table to say anybody file a complaint against be with the tennessee is very board me allegations of with the of the, the wall breaking it always seems to be, are or not true to an object is that i'm going to 0 quite well. and if that, if the, if the 0 boy in tennessee takes any display actually goes be given you whatever money we've agreed. so it'd be like about to me and i've said just the coffee

houses. and then we kind of the respective edge or current head of m as b, b and the former head of yours is special kind of who is now a nominee to become a member of m s b, b to no response, no response. but there's another risk, there's another angle that is also got the average the board members of m. s p b or attorneys. a large majority of employees of all we'll see our attorneys by currently plastics who is required in um you know, attorney clara relationship has been essential to attorneys identity by currently to ethics. if you're a government agency attorney, your employee ac is your clients. hello kathy. hi. it was a discussion with the licensing authority, the dc bar. she is just the 5 digit, whatever she can get away with the prevent, any resolution of my with the boat exposure, right? in the protective her clients, the agency that she also leads the agency is supposed to protect the integrity, the federal civil service. can you see how we're kind of a has like setting?

yes it so yeah there's, there's an inherent conflict of interest here that you just can't get past a trait. and i know i've been the legal profession legal ethics just don't address the scenario of the of a lawyer who works for government agency who actually implemented i was right old address right away. default to this. that's my client. my client is never wrong. i'm a hired gun, i'll do whatever i can to protect my client. yeah, so here we are 30 years later. how much am i perception of much dimension? what threatened punch in world, in which trust and in federal entities other institutions continues to decline. and i'm a post the job is that why should the client well jo carson, thank you so much for being with us today. i want to thank you and i want to thank our viewers to patience and persistence. are the keys to every thing. even if it sometimes feels like they constitute, instead the hard work that you have to do after getting tired of the hard work you've already done. still,

it's all worth it. even if you have to fight for 30 years, like joe carson did. thanks for joining us for another episode of the whistle blowers i'm john kerry onto we'll see you next time the. 2 2 the, the executive, and i'm here to plan with you whatever you do. do not watch my new show. seriously . why watch something that's so different opinions that he won't get anywhere else . well, give it please, or do you have the state department, c, i a weapons, bankers, multi 1000000000 dollar corporations. choose your facts for you. go ahead, change and whatever you do. don't want my show stay main street because i'm probably going to make you comfortable. my show is called direction, but again,

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