watching hope to hear again, and it was a part of the the,

[000:00:00;00] the, in many cases, perhaps in most whistle blowing is clear cuts the issues are simple, the response is simple. and the observer who is not speak to the issue can still understand what the story is, but some cases it wasn't blowing are complicated. the right and wrong of it may not be hard to understand, but the background, the regulations and the governmental response often is it's a special kind of width of lower. he keeps fighting in these complicated circumstances. it's a special kind of whistle blower who continues to fight for 30 years. i'm john kerry onto welcome to the whistle blowers

the . 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 joe carson was born in brooklyn, new york, and earned a degree in mechanical engineering from the university of rochester. he was in hand picked by admiral hyman, rick over the father of the nuclear navy to spend 6 years on a nuclear submarine. in 1982, carson moved into the private sector working as an engineer at several nuclear energy facilities. in 1990 he joined the department of energy as an engineer just one year later in 19 any one, carson blew the whistle on wrong doing. for the 1st time, he reported d. o. he was using paid consultants to supplement employees. he argued that this was designed to milk the system d o. we immediately retaliated by declining to implement his safety findings, which detailed serious workplace issues in d, always oak ridge, tennessee,

nuclear facilities, putting lives at the danger. it took 10 years, but the merits systems protection board found in carson's favor ruling that the department of energy quote retaliated against the appellant because of his whistle blowing by taking away critical duties from his job assignments, issuing letters of admonishment and by reassigning him from his home in tennessee to maryland. this retaliation, not surprisingly resulted in illness and stress, as well as necessitated the appellant to take a large amount of time from work to consult with his attorneys and other advisors. and quote, a deal we was ordered to pay carson for $100000.00 for legal fees and costs, but the story doesn't end there frankly, carson's complaints about d a. we were just beginning the m s p b is an independent clause. i do show agency in the executive branch of the us government that serves as the guardian of federal merit systems. its mission is to

protect the merits systems, principles, and promote and effective federal workforce free of prohibited personnel practices . in other words, it is precisely the place where a federal whistleblower should go to report evidence of waste fraud abuse illegality, or threats to the public health and public safety. but it doesn't necessarily work that way. carson told an interviewer this, he said, my 30 plus here, whistle blowing story has essentially 2 parts. the 1st part was against b a. we. the 2nd part is against the office of special council and m. s p b. joe carson, welcome to the show. well, thank you john. it's so wonderful to be here with you and your audience. i wanted to begin jill with a nature of here, whistle blowing, whistle blowing is of course, as i said a minute ago, bringing to light evidence of waste fraud abuse. so a gallery are threats to the public health and public safety. so tell us about how this all started. we're talking about 32 years ago now. what was the nature of your

whistle blowing or where you have to order for cry, but the time they hired me, it's a department of energy because i had a lot of difficult experience as a nuclear engineer. i started up several nuclear reactors in the navy and in the commercial world and the department of energy realize they didn't have technically competent people to do oversight of the contractors who actually operate a department energy's facilities. so in the problem, energy is unique in seen you are in a number of ways that a lot. so all $300.00 plus federal agencies and that stems from its mission for nuclear weapons called it a carpet advantage you. but the reality is it's, it is energy. yes. but energy and nuclear weapons are just a big part of what the week has been about. you know, it's, it's, it's a successive to live in that project to the se. okay. and one of the biggest singular about the week is that

a self regulating source worker safety. when congress passed the workplace of health and safety, what and what 1970, in a well, agencies exempt themselves from oceans during the distinction. the department of energy was the only agency to do so. so i was how are, in a sense to be in effect that combination, osha, n, o, c inspector with n d a we with oversight over d. we as a facilities in oak ridge and elsewhere. and what i found it is um that because of secrecy because of fear of retribution. because honestly because the a we lawyers would put a target anyone's back who forced any concerns and get away with it that do we. ready is very unsafe, the facilities and i'm just not, it's not just my conjecture. my whistle blowing the 1st 10 years of the saga played a positive role in the passage of the war 2000 and the net,

the type of. ready is entitled the energy employee occupational illness compensation program act of 2000 getting the past with a very close thing. i think by, with a boeing and other actions quite a positive perhaps significant role in his passage. at this point in time, way 2023. over a $135000.00 former d we workers with is a variety spouses have received over $20000000000.00 and compensation. oh my god, being space and unhealthy. yeah. workplace condition without their knowledge, without added protection in making and then do we facilities during the cold war 10 and the to that that's how you started though. it was about safety and it was about safety at the, at the workplace. and when you went, i, i'm even reluctant to say when you went public, but when you reported this, you weren't in that almost immediately with retaliation. what was this, that d a we did to punish you for this was the blowing and, and i,

i'm going to add to, i've known you for a long time. you've always done this exactly the way we are trained to do it. you've always done it within the confines of the law. me right now i've been non laterally resisting is additional legal now for 30 years. yes. and i think this are and all of us. um, so the so yeah, you have to correct that initially they, they suppressed by safety findings because a voice concerns about the use of, of, of you know, consultants, no support service contractors do you, we has contractors and contractors and then, and i'm, i'm unusual. i mentioned to you we use, i think single word i'm in the nuclear weapons mission. since you were in being exempt from osha and and received your a section. it's also saying your end is reliance upon contractors. the term is called go co go co, the acronym i'm going to use, i'm sorry, probably a lot of acronyms go co stands for government own contract to operate. so do you,

we always use facilities, but it is, it has contractors or the long term contracts with big corporations to operate that the so what he's thinking that's. ready ready the private sector should be doing as opposed to the federal government, but the we then go out, you know, those contract management. but when do we realize that these contractors have been making a ton of money, but dumping a lot of waste, believe it or not, i'm going off in a lot of tangents. if you look at the, the, the debit with of the us government, you know, what? number 3 with the 3rd item on that was the is, i hate to add, simon, and it costs for the department of energy. number 3, now estimated $500000000000.00 and every year we spent $10000000.00 to clean it up . but the, the estimated cost remaining cleanup goes up. and you know, it's just, it's, it's, it's, you know, it, and this is from the new, another legacy you creating 60000 nuclear weapons, you know, during the cold. ready or more so um okay. okay, so i was

a because i voice concerned about the sport service contractor. they started to suppress my safety findings and then put me on what's called a trip, a performance improvement plan. it was pretty amazing because one month i'm getting a for ro, performance evaluation and i get a special performance evaluation of point $57.00. and it's like college with a 4 point with a 4 point know scale. and my responses i'm breathing isn't worth at least a point 5, you know. right. and over the years, joe, you've had, you've had a number of wins, including one early on in which the government was ordered to pay you $400000.00 for your legal fees. why the zeros were case? why does your case remain in convention? well, okay. it's actually in the 1st 10 years, i have a bill of notes here with an 8 times. and when i say prevailed, i'm using that more legal term before that the government had to pay my attorney's fees be if you had to but be able to get attorneys fees. okay. so one time i, pavel by the end of

a settlement the other time i prevailed by dint of unit the will unit unit laterally with through the, the contests of personal action. and the 3rd time the time you described in the, in the intro was yes, i went on the merits in additionally, i mentioned the son of agreement, the we did not out of the settlement agreement. so in fact, the image be bigger damage debates with forces set them agreement and it must be a great deal. we have not out of the settlement were and in the case you mentioned do you, we did not honestly. ready order to restore me. so i had to go back to m as the b to get there must be beats with get order dealing with with threatened d a. we to withhold the salaries of a d. we official if they didn't comply with the order. um okay, so that was the during this whole time, there's another entity and that's the us of the special council. and that's a small obscure agency which is specifically test to protect me from what

repeatedly happens to me. right. so i'm going to make a distinction here. do you, we single be out. early on it is, i was, you know, i wish to explain to the very clearly the, the, the wires rules for a was if you will for employment and d. ready 8, and it was kind of like a good fellow. it's kind of a thing, joe, you're a great guy. what did your background? you got a nice family, blah blah blah. oh, what a scott, it's a joke. you're going to do just fine. but let me tell you the rules here, okay? if you, if the we, if it's legal, is that can be a week if it's legal, it's out of the go. and do you wait if the attorneys get away with it, it's legal. and indeed, we the only way you have joe is the right to seek employment elsewhere. the joe you go to just for ok. right. okay. bush and then here when i asked the question, john, yes, is this why was, was still 20000000 people on a new summary and it's right. no, no, not at all. no. and i'm going to see, you know, and i'm, you know, i'm gonna, you know, and you know, i'm having an ice light, but they're gonna take me out. you know, i mean, not, not,

not going to the back of the head but not going to be fired. we're going to make this ongoing. yeah. and then 30 years later, here we are 30 years later and you're still in the same position that you were 30 years ago. this is 30 years after you begin your whistle blowing. so i know the for about half that for about a half that period, how have the issues changed during that time? and how has the government's response to your whistle blowing changed? or have we ever or have you ever gotten to the point where they've said okay, listen, this has gone on long enough. you're right, we're wrong. we're going to fix this, or have they just double down and fight you this whole time? okay, well let me try to, um, you may say i was born in brooklyn. uh, i'm showing here. that'd be good on the screen. like a 5 anyways. my grandfather is ring, he was in new york city farm and put it in front of my nose. i. there it is. okay. and a name for him. a fireman. you know, it's a 100 years ago,

but i grew up watching the rest of the world, the rates that are walking to high school. i was in a numerous time. you know what it was there. mm hm. so my strongest, and i'm saying, you know, and that might be a sort of my strongest initial. and where do we actually 911, release. it wasn't no clear. right? going 1st about the corruption in the department of energy, the custodian, america's nuclear stockpile. and the lead federal way, is it securing new collapse materials around the world? okay, good point. so it's personal and i realized that was going down to build a minute ago. do you? we singled me out, reprisals the office special counsel and failing to protect the time after time after time did not single me out. we just know the space in the crowd and i realize that the reprisals are experiencing and the way the lawbreaking our experience and do we had causes outside of deal with the failure always to to protect me enabled

a d, a. we attorneys to basically conclude with a pretty uh personnel specialist and a line management to engage reprisal. oh and then we seek discovery. they would invoke the attorney client privilege. you know, you didn't do that. a drug cartel can lawyers representing a drug cartel section to witness and the bulk attorney client privilege, right? the kind of deal we the custodial america's looking stockwell creek. okay. so why am i still here to look new daily attorneys? no, i got dirt on them and so we have kind of a stand off, but i realize the returns can do what they do because low as the attorneys allow them to an image the be with leaders, allow them to sort of 5 d a. we further, we've kind of futile and i saw, you know, i'm not, i'm not coming, i'm not always staying my reaction, 911, and then like more anxious, i have to take out what take down what was the before breaking through. one of the federal agencies that puts americans civilization and unnecessary increased risk of a nuclear $911.00 or other special disasters. jo, hold that thought. we are speaking with joe carson,

an american west of lower from the us department of energy, who has been blowing the whistle on government wrong doing for more than 30 years. stay right there, joe. when we come back, we'll discuss joe carson's experience working with and fighting against the federal bureaucracy setup to address with the blower revelations, stating the. 2 the russian states never as tight as i'm one of the most sense community best. i'll send send up the send the 65 with the keys 195 and speed you what else calls question about this? even though we will then in the european union,

the kremlin machine, the state on the rushes to day and split the r t spoke neck, even our video agency, roughly all the band on youtube tv services. for the question, did you say a request, which is the motors probably if i used to, i'm not sort of cisco, here's the mice. so if you are using the why, it's what i show are you and somebody on the disposal. so in the front of mind, in this tool disposal setting the step, it is of savings that you have some people to see those who manage to free continue the work of undermining russia. nobody needs team is opening offices in the us.

those look similar to the solar eclipse, obviously. so we need to talk about seo manual on the for me at 4 and the office for the other thing is that sam got the new guy up as you'd say, the shirts, but i want to shift board. so the democrats, you dogs, a deal exactly, because i think you could ask them that completely. gotcha. the welcome back to the list of lawyers and john curry onto we're speaking with joe carson, the american was the blower from the u. s. department of energy. joe? good to have you with us. thank you. good. it's good feedback. thank you joe and joe, to me the, the most complicated aspect of your whistle blowing has been this ongoing interaction with the merit systems production board. the m s p b. can you explain to us exactly what the m s p

b is what it's role is in whistle blowing and why you've had to fight it for so many years. let's go back in a little bit of history of the federal civil service and i'll try to get just the high points that was created in the 1883. the body association are present. garfield by a disappointed offer seeker, prior to that all federal agency inform was patronage based. but there was so much corruption of the grant and the federal agencies or the federal government grants. but she was still. ready more that there was a push to make a federal employment marriage based on the patronage space. the pedals inactivate 2 or 3 created. what is the allow the. ready civil service, the biggest singles legislative change in that 100, but 40 years right? is a. so there was a form that i could 1978 and the m s. b, b was created in by that was another agency created by the law was the offices, special council and, and some, several others. but what was what just way to objective. so the civil service

reform act was to kind of find more that the federal agency employment would be married base. not if you will corruption guys to look for, you know, if you're not falling married at this point in time, you're breaking the law as long as it has corruption from the merits. but it's actually what is the name of it would imply was to protect marriage based employment practices in federal agencies. violations of marriage based before the marriage. principles taught by the agency is a term for anybody personal practices which include with a well reprisal. excuse me. the other special council has a positive do need to protect federal employees, comprehended personal practices, emergency but it's actually born. in addition to is clause, i like to do to get to the function as a duty to report to the president and congress. whether federal employees are radically protected from favorite pro surprises, including but not limited to whistle reprisals. and then the president has the

duties if i'm just the b service, the want to take any action necessary to correct that. right? going to work. right? right. so i would say is a fraud. and what i'm saying is to throw a in your mind. so it was for the advocates, and they would say, well, i would say is good is gets well meaning. and how can you reconcile well meaning with fraud, right, well, you are in a sense that co c has got a 120 employees. the police are federal workforce of 2000000. it just doesn't have the resources. that's right. so it goes all foreigners. so it may be, well maybe, but it's still for sure. it's just, it's a viable. yeah. the same thing on capital hill where you have these enormous federal departments and then you have a dozen staff members or 2 dozen staff members that are supposed to oversee them. it's just not tenable. and in your k right, this is dragged on for so long that then you must have attracted the attention of

at least somebody in congress right there. there are committees in both the house or senate that oversee the activities of the department of energy. yeah, surely somebody has said something. so what's, what's been the reaction in congress to your whistle blowing? well, the reaction of his papers and, you know, probably as low as i never showed that. but, oh yes. and it would just be, be, or what kind of stuart, but it will tend to get a lot of attention on sappers as many other things. congress says, the 50 will outsource is over side to which the vote obviously groups. mm hm. end up. okay. so when i talk to people congress, i say what the whistler advocacy group say. they really don't want it. they don't say i'm wrong, but they don't get involved. yes. and that's kind of discuss you. yeah, that's actually been that that's actually been my understanding of your situation. you and i have a lot of the same friends in washington, for example,

were acquainted with the same the same whistleblower advocacy groups we've worked with with several of the same groups. but um, but when you mentioned the m s p b, their eyes just sort of glaze over it. and i, i've often wondered where are these outside groups and all this? why are they not advocating for you and be on the width of lower groups? what about the federal employees unions? why aren't they helping you? why haven't they jumped to your defense? okay, well, option i'll say option a. i'm just an engineer cran. wolf. yeah, there's nothing to say right? correct. so they're not going to is right, that's, that's an option. all right, option b, these advocacy groups and others, a great watch. so, and so the government blubbering the benefits their business models and not so much . mm hm. not a very, pretty picture, but is there an option? see, right, right, there really isn't an option you see, besides that on this,

i assuming all you can do is to continue filing lawsuits. is that right? well, with the board reprisals deals you know, via but that goes and, but it was b b, it's like a real. hm. oh yeah. i've been, it was a grand 4 times 4 times. and so there's, you can imagine there's reads of documentation though. yeah. and is that the paper anywhere that says like, with a bar disclosures, lack reasonable belief. and yeah, it's all, it's all about the authorities trying to hide the world. right? yet my case is and various brands. so there's, there's no other termination of the merits, including the merits of my west motors, motors. so, and then you get involved with the, you mentioned federal 4 years. and then there's a, um, they have a vested interest in a worth was always see the numbers to be then unable to have why? so because the federal employee use the night time, i'm a member of a board or you know,

used towards where you and you the fact that referenced the presence of it, it was a suit of it. so years ago there opened shop and they cannot require federal employees to pay dues to them. so why would have federal boy pay $3.00 to $400.00 a year to do is to a union. right then bond quote pours the union reps to say its insurance. what do you mean by insurance? there's something called election of remedy to view a legend. prohibitive. personal practice. yes. you can either file a grievance within the union or you can go to always cm's b, b. you can do both. so what we're seeing, i'm just gonna be a scene is worthless. then the, the, the grievance process through the union is, is, you know, relo to be better, which helps joseph, i pay that insurance money for the dues, right? so federal for use benefit from a broken over say, no matter what home to america they, you know, they're, they help set it up so you need memberships, and that's what they're interested in. mm hm. for, you know, and i'm saying, john,

let me, let me be, you know, and i'm going to be 70 to fuel because i have almost 40 years of federal service. i want to get this, you know, what personal costs 911 mission accomplished. they put it behind me. okay. yes. so early this year, my wife agreed, i could spend up to a $100000.00 to get a resolution. i was to go to school, your teens, that i have now spend about 25000. but i'm going to put money on the table to say anybody file a complaint against be with the tennessee is very board me allegations of with the of the, the wall breaking it always seems to be, are or not true to an object is that i'm going to 0 quite well. and if that, if the, if the 0 boy in tennessee, thanks any display actually goes to be given you whatever money we've agreed to, it'd be like about the. mm hm. and i've said just the coffee houses and then return to the respective hedge or current head of m as b b. and the former head of the over the special council is now a nominee to become a member of m s b b to no response. no response,

but there's another risk. there's another angle that is also got the irish and the board members of m as p, b or attorneys. a large majority of employees of always see our attorneys by currently plastics who is required in um you know, attorney clara relationship has been essential to attorneys identity by currently do ethics. if you're a government agency attorney, your employee ac is your clients. hello, cathy. hi, it was a discussion with the licensing authority, the dc bar. she is justified to do whatever you can get away with the prevent any resolution to my visible disclosure, right? in the protective her clients, the agency that she also leads the agency is supposed to protect the integrity of federal civil service. did you see how were kind of a house like setting gets it so yeah there's, there's an inherent conflict of interest here that you just can't get past to try. and i know i've been the legal profession, wiggle ethics, just don't address the scenario of the of

a lawyer who works for government agency who actually implemented i was right old address, right? default to this. that's my client. my client is never wrong. i'm a hired gun, i'll do whatever i can to protect my client. a good. so here we are 30 years later . and i must say, my perception, i must have made a somewhat threatened country in world in which trust and in federal end to these other institutions continues to decline. and i'm a post the job as to why it should look like. well, jo carson, thank you so much for being with us today. i want to thank you and i want to thank our viewers to patience and persistence. are the keys to every thing, even if it sometimes feels like they constitute. instead, the hard work that you have to do after getting tired of the hard work you've already done. still, it's all worth it. even if you have to fight for 30 years, like joe carson did. thanks for joining us for another episode of the whistle blowers. i'm john kerry onto we'll see you next time.

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