the phenomenon is bits of scots and i'll be back again on the top of the alex with all the latest news on use. no, not the the i'm action or attention. welcome back to going underground, broadcasting over on the world from the middle east. quite apart from the trauma and garza from british american to you, nation armed aerial bombardment, there is a trauma all around the world. one of the greatest trauma specialists in the world is all the cost saliva. dr. gamble, my child. he's an award winning all of those and his last few days of interview

with us even found time to interview prince harry earlier in the year. but today he has catastrophe in the middle east. on his mind. his books include when the body says no, the cost of it and stress in the realm of hungry ghosts, close encounters with addiction and the method of normal trauma, illness and healing. and it talks at cold. j joins me again from vancouver in canada. thank you so much. talk to match ever coming on the show you. you said recently that everything one says about recent events is going to hurt someone. why is it so difficult to even talk about foam or amongst palestinians in the parliaments of nato countries like your country, canada, the loan of the countries in west and you are. i think there are 2 major reasons. one of them is the reality that israel, the input this, the phone, the state of is rose, what it is, such a deep trauma of jewish people, but,

and you're going to eastern europe. but then of course, with the 2nd lower in germany as well. and european countries feel the fear further of guilt about what happened. did you lose in europe? that's one stream. but the other end, so that there's a fear that by talking about the person in trauma you somehow and then any shooting or invalidating jewish trauma. but there's a more major reason, which is that, um, the english speaking countries, but they clearly were rooted in colonialism. the they'll, you know, whether it's united states or canada or australia. and of course, all on the belgium and france, they all participated in the cool little project. what i'm saying is that these countries either were rooted in found in colonialism or have colonial policy themselves. so they're more likely to identify with the colonial mindset,

the mindset of the people being cologne in arch to now it doesn't matter how you see the foundation of israel is being really dangerous trauma. the reality is that it couldn't have been established without phone imperial control and the colonization of the land of a land that was already populated by indigenous people. so the colonial mindset dominates less than thinking. and so the idea of this combination of historical jewish drama, and a colonial project that to the west or mines seems perfectly natural. so from the western point of view, the motion we're like to do identify with the colonizer that the people have been colonized, even after all the progress that so many people are talking about industry on, on television. i mean, you've, you've compared the lies in a donation. media or about what's happening in gaza to the lives told the about vietnam before. um, uh the great and they've done l as a book who's been on this show actually, why, why do they live again?

um, it's a, it's, it is in the service of imperial policy so that the united states is the biggest empire in the history of the world. is god, what a kind of military bases internationally it dominates the world culturally and less . so was china rising, but used to donated economically as well. and it's the united states, besides a long time ago, just as breton decided back in 1917. and the 1920 is that it's an interest. so the video chat prior to establish a jewish entity in palestine, i'm quoting winston churchill. in the same way the united states decided that it's in his interest to have this on single aircraft carrier go to 0 in the middle east . and the press always serves the interests of the imperial project. so if you look at any number of american wars of vietnam based on the pack

of legalize the gulf of tonkin incident, for example, that gave the excuse that americans to bomb the, as we have now, never even happened. but all the press reporters, as reality, the weapons of mass destruction, which was the excuse to invade iraq, which a 5 year old child could tell, was a complete concoction. nevertheless, the press enthusiast will be trumpeted. and so for the last 6070 years, this, the process that was actually trumpeted also all these really talking points and totally ignore the, the, the occupation and the depression and the repeated killings of palestinians. because it's, so it's american imperial policy, which is what the, the press is subservient to, you know, what? and then 10 years, 15 years later they'll do some soul searching. oh my god,

we made a mistake. eligibility was right. you know pentagon papers was right. we have now was based on a pack of lies, or they'll do some soul searching. oh my god, there are no weapons of mass destruction. but the next door that comes along, they'll always fall into line. and they're doing that right now as well. and you think this is a conscious slide, i mean, clearly you've been talking design is communities in recent weeks, a mid state of that you cause a genocide, then i'm going to say they know they're lying. and what hillary clinton, she knows, she's lying when she talks about bedded babies and the need to beaumont hospital. i don't know if this people at the top nor their line or whether they're so bought into the so boxed into the 80 ology that they'd be serving all their lives so that they're saying untruths. but of the actual line body. sometimes they are probably also often they believe what they're saying, because i think when you consider who rises to the top in the system, nobody,

it was fixed, the tooth ever rises to the top. so there's a selection process that happens, but then you get the level of a clinton or where joe biden, or reissue some smack, or justin too though, for that matter. they've been through so many a processes that they have to prove their loyalty to the system. that by the time they raised the only the most loyal to get there. and so it's hard to tell whether they're lying sometimes or whether just sincerely telling. uh, untruth is, you know, i, i'd have to talk to them personally. i can't tell i, i suspect they do both. i mean, you know, they do. but, and in this context, where the people is all of nato countries of the united states and west and your back into the hills. and the, is there any operations on, on guys of the, the weaponry, the billions of dollars of age and so on. what is the rest of us and the people?

how do they cope? i mean, of course, we're not, we're just forgetting for a 2nd. the trauma of all those survivors in, in gaza tonight and today. well, how do you suggest people cope with the trauma of those feeling hopeless in nato countries, arming the legs, genocide as they watch it on social media feeling deck is nothing they can do to stop it. but of course, the reality is that these mass movements that arise in response to these horrors, they have their expressions. and a lot of people come together like a $100000.00 people in britain a few days ago. but you know, it's, it's hard to keep up those kind of movements, you know, and the governments don't care any anyway. but i say to people is number one through the work. and this is for me as much as for anybody else, do the work, speak you to speak, and as long as you can connect with other people as much as you can. but don't be

attached to the outcome. you know, don't let the outcome defeats, you know, that you contribute to the truth in the world by or pausing some atrocity. but don't take it personally because historically, the good guys always lows. that's just how it is. you know, and, and you have to just make accept the fact that you can do, but it's something you've spoken. the truth is you've helped to sign something like those temporarily. i hope you mean so well, you lose temporarily. yeah. but you can do that is something important to know role in the long term. that's exactly my point, that your contribution has not been in vain. and there's a fan as jewish rabbi said 2000 years ago, or a little bit more that the task is not yours to finish. but neither i, you'll see not to take part in it. and so, so you make your contribution,

but don't do that as to the outcome. ok, then whatever's point. well, what about the this association then between the gaming of children and those working on the weapons? you know, britain's biggest manufacturers be a systems, northrop grumman, raphael, and boeing in your country in the united states. and of course, the canadian, the military and the associated companies, as part of the military industrial complex is massive in nature countries. how do you explain that this association between the work is work on the weapons doing the killing that will and act as musicians and so on. told by their agents and studios and publishers just don't speak out and don't do what you just said about the need to follow your conscience or something like the encounter in canada. there's been a number of people in the arts world who have lost their jobs for business because i'm in here and vancouver, i live there are um, academics of spoken to and not being threatened by the union by their employing

institutions. those are the people who are participating such things. i mean the ours, my on the manufacturers is on the association of that they, they're cut off from now. humanity that they, they couldn't be connected to this as you commodity and do the job that they do. and i know lots of people are able to be very nice to their families and their dogs . but still the terrible things are there in the world, you know, and this is a well known phenomenon. you know, so that this association between what i do in the world and what i allow myself to feel is, is a very common human today. and a lot of society i use it to, it's like that. and i was only like that in the west is like that international as long as there's another kind of association i was talking to a young muslim student here at the time, you know, surveys,

columbia. she says that she's not being on her body is the only way she can. so i, you know, so that, so actually she was worried about she's, and i mean obviously i'm not feeling my feelings. and i said, listen, don't worry about it, that she organisms attempt to survive or to and you or what's on your bill. we'll come back to your feelings later. so, so that this association it concerns the function of doing terrible things in the world. but sometimes it's also a response to too much pain in the world. i mean, clearly information about the holocaust came through slowly at 1st. it was rumor 1st about what the nazis were doing. i don't know thing. i mean, it's all because you're in canada there and we saw a true to applauding a member of the nazi s. s. so there's some just associations going on that. but today we can use social media to see what's happening on this industrial scale in

real time. well, and that's a germany than that to use did everything they could actually hide what they were doing so that i actually fully believe that all the most german saw the anti jewish laws and practices and try and, and violence of the nancy's they didn't know about auschwitz, you know, and they didn't know about treblinka, sometimes they didn't want to know, but they didn't know. which doesn't mean that they didn't, to support the anti semitism and the, you know, the nancy state, but is specifically know about the atrocities. many people that of course, many soldiers saw them, but it's been, they must have talked about it at home. but it wasn't the mass media. what is particularly horrendous right now, and i think it's a politically darth time in the world. and i've talked to a lot of people about this is that we're seeing it happen. we're seeing babies,

blonde, they see, and speaking in the lives of their children or the rental doctor, got all my tell you, i'll have to stop you that more from the renown physician and award winning all of the after this break the,

the welcome back to going underground, i'm still here with renown vision and award winning all of the adult. you got all of my tag. so it's all right. i'll come out today for interrupting you and ended. but when we were talking about the real time viewing of people billions around the world of what's happening in gaza, i was saying that what makes this a particularly dark time right now is that we're always seeing lot, you know, in live action almost or dismemberment or young children and parents digging their kids out of their revel. and the politicians are just saying this is ok. and, and the media for the most part is justifying it. and there's a huge disconnect with you, but people are watching and what they're being told. and i think that's hard for a lot of people are right now, and this is almost unprecedented. it's impossible to compare corrupt these

atrocities. and let me just say, for the record that october, the 7th was, itself is an atrocity. and my view um, but this ongoing, they li, cruelty, unspeakable cruelty that we're witnessing in the face of media support. and the political class in most of the western world is just cheering it on. it's the darkest thing i've ever seen in my whole life. and that's thing a lot is really saying a lot coming for coming from you. obviously. i mean you did mentioned october 7th. the israel is indeed an apartheid state as a israeli. uh and g o is like, the tell him say does that justify events like october? the 7th? i mean, nelson mandela's dad's now have interviewed him. and of course he believed in the use of violence against civilians in the fight against apartheid. south africa. not,

nothing justifies october. the 7th. i don't, but it's not a question to justify anything. is a collection of do we understand it and how do we understand it and how do we move forward to something different? and there's always this question of is, is it is really response start over the 7th port portion of the disproportionate. well, another question is, is that the 7 portion of those funds to be 2 years of oppression and, and apartheid and killings and massacres. so you can begin with october, the 7th. i don't believe that the feeling, but i firmly reject the idea that it is legitimate to kill um on, on people and children and all the people and so on. at the same time, when you look at where that arise from, where that came from, which is, as other people have noted as been called,

the world's largest concentration camp in 2005 people are blaming home us. and i'm not here to support them. us, i don't, i come on so like what they stand for, what they do, do their own p to factor even that will say that to push them back to the i know, but we might get on to why you feel. you have to say that because typically, you know, yeah, no, yeah, because the colonization is tilted in such a way as to make it necessary to even say that, you know, but what i was gonna say was, but in 2005, there was a study done in guys, internationally actually looking at children in war zones, the more as traumatized kids in the world with the kids living in gaza. this is before i'm us to go over. so it's, you know, so in other words, what we have here is generations of trauma as children growing up in this open air prison looking across the fields where the families used to live in work. and when

they do peaceful protests, they're picked up by his early sniper. you know, so why don't we asking was october the 7th, a full portion of the response to is ready for us. the. where are we asking is on the bottom, your browser, but person to talk over the 7. i mean, it's a completely a store call. and as is really historian, you know, i'm poppy talks about the historic size, the action of, of the situation. so in the west and media um, every attempt is made to the store size of the so like you to happen in a vacuum. it's not a justification to say that it does not happen in a vacuum and happened after decades of collective, brutal trauma visited on the palestinians. that's ongoing. well, that's the, that's what i told you. gutierrez said, of course, and israel cooled on the resignation of the un secretary general and the non pop a week, a be able to see our interview with him on the rumble general after october, the 7th. the,

you know about this region. you ford for through. you've studied this area all your life, giving me what about, uh, their own, the hundreds of thousands of the seats of britain and so many tens of thousands. and so in the united states, the cities across the country and in north america. what about the powells favorite stand by of human nature? how do you expect the use the events there to those the don't really understand the situation in palestine. to further the idea that this is somehow to do with human nature. and that the div kindly strength and the belief that human nature has the potential to be good out of what we're watching on our social media at the moment is in my book and this is norma. would you kindly mention there's a chapter on the sort of human nature and the argument is that human nature is by necessity aggressive and individualistic can now style and violence and so on.

total nonsense, you know, human nature is a range of potentials and it's a question of what conditions give rise to what kind of potentials my son, the annual who you haven't met. but my 2nd son. oh, i should say my 1st and my older son into 2 young is really is, and instagram a few days ago, who were against or were against what this tied he's doing. well, if this human nature, why and a supporting the war to, you know, i mean, she looked at the boat, it was a human being, hitler was a human being a jesus was a human being, a felon, was a human being. and joe biden is a human being and the sort of the people that are opposed to a button. so there is no human nature. what there is, that's that list there is, are systems that promo to one aspect of human potential another. but people are faithful of being infinitely cruel and incidentally kind. and the question is,

what kind of conversations that we need to have and what kind of conditions you need to establish. they'll promote the be not non folding over potential, as opposed to the violent and aggressive and cruel ones. aside from the political structures obviously here in the systems, then how do you think fear perpetuates these mastic as of, of babies and children, fear of items, warships you mentioned by doing the being a human fear of a politician. well, look for your father. lucian's fear of speaking out fee is of as you know at the anti defamation league, i understand cold jewish groups, so as a 4 piece hate groups. yeah, yeah, yeah. and jews like me, i always told there were full cell data and then you know, most nonsense you can only laugh at that. it was so tragic. but um,

so known, chowsky said that there's nothing really easy then to make the american people afraid. and fear is a powerful form of political control, because then people are afraid, the rational parts of the mind goes offline and they go into defensive mode and defensive mode. they're willing to go with any kind of aggression. now look to be fair. after october, the 7th. so there's every reason why many israelis will go into fear and mode. i mean, some thing terrible happened during the last people and, you know, they also doing so in a vacuum. but they don't understand the boston and situation at all. they're not taught it, they're taught to ignore it. but nevertheless, a lot of fear, the something like nothing yahoo! who has practice the same policies all his life. he doesn't need fear to do all this. he will pass the proposed indians. he has them tortured. he has their villages taken over by settlers. he belongs browser repeatedly getting hundreds of

people. but he'll take that fear and he'll use it to justify the worst kind of atrocities. and that's what politicians do. so the vietnam war withdrawal based on his dominated theory that is for that to kind of just stick with the and then they're gonna take over the whole world to make the american people afraid. and that allows you to manipulate them into it is not but dissipating animal participating and but also condoning the worst kind of atrocities. so fear is both a genuine human response to the thread. but it's also a political to, to manipulate populations with and fear some might say is a part of modern life. i mean, katy, there's a fear in the highly unstable economy about feeding a family. the idea are in mass media or news is often the dry and create fear of

your next door neighbor. because make the world see more criminal than it is stuff i lied say. so how do you, how do you go past this fear and somehow and daily at the moment the fear mongering is done as how mos are isis of regardless of whether the united states are involved with isis. and they're trying to make americans and canadians feel that somehow, and i'm also going to attack the place in vancouver or something. well, that's the conversation that's going on is the most wants to kill all the jews in the world, and they're going to see them there. they're going to come out to, you know, realistically speaking is speaking, just a little nonsense. a mazda is a relatively small organization compared to say, these early state, living in a area of 5 miles, but 25 miles, highly controlled. they've always been, uh, so they could sting israel, but they could never oppose any dangerous signal significant in jupiter,

let alone jews and the rest of the world. that's the 1st point. the 2nd point is, let's assume that how mazda is you heading organization. that's all it is. let's just assume that for a minute. for the sake of argument, who are these people are not much the same from with, as children that i mentioned or go into the study in 2005. where are you the most traumatized population in the world? and when most jews, they see were army uniforms. with the start of david and the u. n. n. and everything that's being done to them is done in the name of the jewish state. and the major jewish organizations in the world by and large line up with what's happening to them and justify it and have for decades. do we have to do? we have to identify the hatred of them as

a member for doing business with historic and assemblies in europe is not the same . i'm not justifying it again and just saying there's nothing more natural then under those conditions, traumatized people will. they ate their oppressors and if the pressures are saying we're doing this as jews in the name of the jewish people, what do we expect? and so i wasn't the only one to respond to october, the 7th, in a very um, mixed way. i know, and i thought it was horrible. and at the same time i thought, what are the expect? after all these back is what did they expect? and that wasn't the only one, not the people who visited the place like i, i've been to the occupied territories who, who know the situation 1st and that task phillips were the ones when i say we,

i mean is really i don't identify which is real estate but essentially stake back by the colonial powers. going back to the 19 twenty's that i've created a situation where there's gonna be a lot of hatred. and what's really interesting is if you look at the major sign is leaders of been going on, letting me jump within ski. then graham was the 1st by minister, the 0 loading. the drivetrain ski found the, the version is honest. when of the scientists moving, which became her route, which be led by begun and fundamentally by shamir, and later by shamir, both been going in a gelatin ski as well as the motion of the day on, even in the 1950s, said that we call what the odds are doing cameras and but all they're doing is they're defending the land from us. don't take a moment. okay, thank you. all right, thank you. and that's it for the show. and condolences from the whole team here

we're going underground to those bereaved by the ongoing violence here in the middle east. we'll be back with a brand new episode on saturday, but until then, keep in touch by the social media. if it's not sense that in your country and had to have channel going on the ground to be on level, don't come to watch. new and old episodes of going underground sees after the uh, sometimes they knew that the, that is the one to bed for the default. unless it goes something didn't a part of this, but it's the principle that's the district. that's right. so that would work

the french on buses or bushes some and so i explained the presence of french mysterious killed in ukraine of the powers issues of denial. the country is representative is also tight lips the 4 cases image of the palestinian civilians and medical workers allegedly sergeant buys very false as a lawyer describes the troubling human rights situation. the $1000.00 didn't include them, but unfortunately they don't even present service. and that is a deal completion of the thirty's are not responding to any requests concerning the data, thousands of detainees.