she knows victory over russia as a dead, and now it is satisfied with the slow destruction of ukraine. the . we could assume they did it by accident. it's a crime either way. if that's the case, it's a crime of negligence. but we will not forget about the crimes they commit against our citizens who they may appear to income fence. that's a russian military transport plane. turning 65 ukrainian soldiers for president exchange was shut down by the us supplied patriot missiles. pushed to save some. this was how you get this. in fact of the other issue is, i mean it was so for all sorts of you and see if this one because if you need a delta x a, janine hospitals, details how is rated forces disguised in civilian clothing field. the 3 is sleeping palestinians, one of them leading special treatments for disabilities, the

funds, the pol, to send you in bed crescent society posts the chink, final phone call with the 6 year old girl whose shots inside the car, the slain. finally, the sites of the child still remains for no, not for some days. for those all you'll headlines will minutes. past 3 am must go time minus be discussed. i'll be back with the full news run down in just under an hour. the hello and welcome to the cross talk. we're all things are considered. i'm peter lavelle. nato is ukraine. narrative is like the passage of seasons ever changing.

so we witness as long as it takes to today's just avoid defeat. the by the ministration knows victory over russia is a debt, and now it is satisfied with the slow destruction of ukraine. the process of being ukraine. i'm joined by my guess when we're leon in washington. he's a political scientists, author and a radio talk show host in florida. we have craig past the georgia. he is co hosted the convo couch, and here in moscow, everyone's favorite. we have dmitri bobby, and she is a political analyst, an editor. it interests me. internet media project, right? telling me across softballs and the fact that music can jump any time you want. and i always appreciate possible. let me go to you 1st in florida. you and you got up early for this program. so the sort of that our guests in washington appreciated very much in my introduction, we discussed, you know, the chains and narrow tube to as long as it takes an hour. i'll use my words, interpreting the administration to now to is to avoiding defeat. so if they're

avoiding defeat, that means they can't win. so why did they continue? can you explain the logic to me? oh, and by the way, it's going to be very expensive to continue this senseless war that never should have started in the 1st place. go ahead as well when you talk about it's gonna be very expensive. i think that gives you the answer right there. it's who's going to make the money. it might be a loss for ukraine because they've lost so many soldiers. and so many wives, what a half a 1000000 now i think the average age of the front of the line. so we'll get 43 years old. but who really one and that is the deep state, the military industrial complex. sure. this wasn't as long of a war when it ends as afghanistan was, but it's going to be a high intensity what, where a lot of hardware went over very quickly. so, you know, i think that somebody did went in this whole situation and it was the military industrial complex and they will just simply just do what they normally do. just use the mainstream media to kind of give you a little, you know,

condolences to you know, poor ukraine who far brush or the big bad bear and stuff. but peter, i do think that they're holding that p e bank upside down and, and jostling for just one more coin thing. they can get one more p. they added this whole thing by tying it to border security. so, you know, look for the united states and so press hard on this even though it's not a popular one with a lot of people i still greet, you'll see the bite in the ministration. get what i paid out of this, which just tells you who won the military industrial, complex, wilma, and a in washington. i mean, obviously this is tied to the election cycle. i mean, there's a, a, a flurry of articles to actually kind of build this. and if the, if the advent of a trump presidency, what does it come to pass? they want to make sure that they can get to, you know, more than one year. that may be a, maybe 4 or 5 years on an annual basis. i mean, they would, they really want to build it into the budget here, which i doubt to be able to succeed in doing. but it's really just for binding to

avoid humiliation at the polls. not that he has a doesn't have other problems to worry about. go ahead and washington, well, if joe, by it is able to make it that far, that that's still up in the air yet to be determined. there's also the, the rush of phobia and aspect of this, i think by continuing this conflict that enables the democrats to still talk about donald trump is vladimir putin, his best friend. and in, in the, in, in the west, of course we, we can't have anything along those lines. and interestingly enough, up for russian foreign secretary lab rob it was reported in test, was talking about where the u. s. provided weapons are showing up outside of ukraine. they have, they are showing up in finland, they're showing up in sweden. they are showing up in gaza. and this is a conversation that this is not a new revelation. because there were discussions

a months ago that a lot of these weapons were showing up in african countries. so this really seems to be a money laundering scheme. it seems to be a weapons dissemination, steam. and i think also there are a number of weapons manufacturers. it, we're really angry at joe biden, for getting out of afghanistan, what they consider to be early. so this is a way of continuing to funnel money to those weapons manufacturers such as lockheed martin and boeing and raytheon, who were making money hand over fist in afghanistan. this is a way of continuing to uh, to, to keep that gravy train running. it will demo and we've heard from our 1st to guess here. i mean, there's nothing i disagree with what you're saying. but the problem with it, with all of this is what about the ukrainians or the the calculations that we've heard here have nothing to do with the wellbeing of that country. and it's people

demo as well. i think it was, they have nothing to do with the well being or america else or the general people using natal categories. and let's see what kind of ones we have probably made to general separately. you have a stock number, you know, these we, if you were to, by the, by the us how the site i was trying the why because they reaction to cease google. i was, i mean, well, uh mr. stone is the handle major. she doesn't have anything to do with dialogue, always trying to get to different areas. right. but she's the most concerned, you know, so i mean, i agree with, with both of our guests that there is a lot of private interest in both. most people for me is bureaucracy. how does your role as you work in the west right now as uh, he does not reduce the results. you know, the english no,

to save money will save bias or make people's by his bed. they used to make an impression to make an awful for us right. of a 2nd. you know, i think it might be that i would never say anything pretty plain, correct, is repeating the same price. and you always say, you know, you'll get your price, salary, things may be going to the dogs, you know, you really do what you will be paid. you know, you will keep your go. so we have the same uh, the same all blade years things from them. you know, they compare rush, how much you know, uh by the bad profit, most of the same goals. you know, well the images you did to a, i, i'm sure you heard this now good from nikki haley. they'd be on october 7th. what happened because it was hooton's birthday, i mean, wow, that's the extent of their, of their intellectual proud this. so let's go back to our guessing and i'm sorry,

let's go to, let's go to craig and in florida here, you know, i'm deem a brought up democracy. well i as we speak right now hungry is in the dock as it were, with the e. u intake. basically want to take away its voting rights because it doesn't want to waste money on ukraine and essentially, and then the financial times had an expensive article on it. this is, this is blackmail. so they will, they, they want to subvert democracy within the e. u to pro pop up a pretend democracy in ukraine. can you explain that to me? yeah, i have a hard time explaining that, but anything is possible at this point, i mean nancy pelosi over here in the united states. one is saying that those 2 were calling for a cease fire taking a message that word from vladimir pool for crying out loud. you know what i think those in ukraine who play the boy even game wrong, will not only that war, but they'll lose their head. it's like the old kissinger saying, right to be america's enemies, dangers between americans. right. and it is fatal. but, you know, i think that eventually you'll see a lot of people in the ukraine,

whoever's less than ukraine, whoever does web standing that is will eventually pivot to the reconstruction of what's left over there. you can already see black rock and vanguard, putting their steak in the ground and grabbing a property left then right. but what i'm interested is right now is what happens with the russian federation. you know, how much slack are they going to give the new ukranian government, whatever that is, and whoever that is, when they come into power, it seems that when biting got back into power, you saw the whole language, the whole rhetoric of the russian federation, kind of changed even a lot of rob saying i think it will be not beneficial for you to get involved in the black sea. so i'm looking at what's going to happen as far as the russian federation. i know they don't like to participate so much and regime change and, you know, like the, you know, the added states as a religion, but i think you'll see the russians get a little bit more involved with the permit that's coming to you perhaps. so you bring up such a good point, you know, and it's something that i tried re, a reminder, our viewers, we look at,

essentially in this program. we look at western narratives about this conflict in ukraine. and when we go to wilmer, a in washington, there's one element of the, of the conversation that is never added as a well, what are the russians actually think about all of this? it's never considered whatsoever. the reason why i'm mentioning it is that, yeah, pasta is right. russia will have a very strong interest in who is in ruling in i q and ruling as opposed to governing. because it's, you know, what we have right now is we're gonna have what i think before that happens, it'll be a civil war inside of ukraine playing the blame game. go ahead in washington as well. i don't think it's as much of a concern of, of the who as it is in terms of the what and what i mean by the, what is the audiology, that those that will wind up coming into power are presenting. because if we go back to russia's stated interest in this entire conflict in getting involved in

a conflict in the 1st place, it was, it was 2 d knots of fi ukraine. and to see to it that nato, that ukraine does not become a, a, a part of nato. so now what i think is, is i think those issues are still at the top of the, of the list. and so i don't think it's a matter of who as it is a matter of what is being articulated and which, which is interesting when also i think when you add the finland in nato aspect of this, with the border between finland and, and in the long border between finland and russia and finland now becoming the new proxy here. and hopefully, you know, what we're seeing play as played out in ukraine will not make its way there the united states. well, i then try to start it somewhere else. well, i think defense, you know, maybe there not too many people alive, but the, the, it's seared into their memory the last time they took on the russians. and it

didn't work out very well for them. you know? yeah, but it's not work it out of ukraine either way. the united states outside doing that can not disagree. there is no learning curve here, but the most, this is very convenient for nato because rush, it will still be the enemy for them no matter what happens, whatever outcome there isn't ukraine to oh, well, you're right. well, it was very right. like you reminded us, you know, we'll have to leave all the special meeting at 3 because it's all in rush it dns and fine. right. and do, did advise you not only to prevent your brain from department and they told me, i don't know who it was that you really, what's becoming a nature around. what do you have to know? that's why force has to be used, you know, get the newspapers was to use because there was a really, a kind of, you know, sense which was in fact a range of community ways. all the,

all the works. there were several occasions where americans had what they bought, premium samples, with all of those codes. what if he's not that they don't base the main? so rush or based together. well, the boss who played will be comments. and in the same story about, you know, this when a check in the west of breast never goes over or meaning to exercises all the baltic, sea unit air, you know, all the codes. but roger wasn't, they give you a good experience. we just caught between 2014 so okay, they might have to jump in here. we have to go to a short break. and after that short break, we'll continue our discussion on the point. stay with our team. what else seemed wrong?

just don't need to shape out the application and engagement because the trail when so many find themselves will support. we choose to look so common ground the one year that you attempted to collect at business exit a month. i thought she sat there for the show and then it will be a job to bluff because of a dish uh into this one for the defense of the supplement is such a blessing and not to mention in a thought someone did you lose? it asked who i found there for us in the media. i know people, there's only 2 reasons to do, say, within the city the new country can piece of us and they're going to be present the

day before the work it done stimulates the industry on. is it what's money before us of the left? so should william farmer shots, monuments who we have good guy started or decisions in my lab. and what was that man was the ones that ridiculous funds i put in the best one today. and but you know, so that's what it is that you want to set. i mean shows those are pretty sharp journals on page data for. she's getting those on best. do what i mean. there's a, there's a problem. the welcome next across sack, where all the things are considered. i'm peter lavelle dry and you were discussing, you create the hey, let's go back to pasta in florida. obviously the, the new strategy and it looks like now at least up until the election and maybe the

rise of the rationale for the additional age. 61000000000 or so is new security commitments in lieu of wanting to take we take last territory. so i'm not really sure how that supposed to work. i think it's kind of a substitute and it, it's an excuse to give money here because essentially it's so easy ukraine going to give up these to rhetoric if it's not going to retake the territories and why doesn't they make peace? what is an a ask for a cease fire? i mean, you know, basic needs, new security arrangements which were done to the u. k. did it last month, the us as replicating it right now. that doesn't solve rushes security problems. i don't know what's in their minds, it just perpetuating the same problem. and that problem ended up in an arm conflict pasta to well, i think that the russian federation understands that the ukrainians and not really wanting to show over here. they're just listening to whatever the west says, so they just go along with it as long as they can. but peter, as to what to point out as the, you know, do you mind and doctor,

when we were talking about the stakes and what was going on? let's not also forget that there were over a dozen bio labs in which the russian federation took out immediately as the action started. so that also raises the whole space here as far as how, how the russians will react and moving forward. but also to when it comes to the main stream media in the united states, they're not talking about ukraine. i mean, never. and that's why i continue to say that i think that they will eventually get this money over here. because so many people in the united states, especially the populace, right, are so much concentrated on border on the border itself. so they're gonna find a way to wrap up some more money, some wandering cash with the border, and eventually these republicans will for why? because the mean, because the populace in the, in the mainstream media, they don't give a damn. as far as you know, what goes on and ukraine, they're oblivious to it. and so with the people. so that's why i think we'll find more funding going uh, you know, to ukraine and that's going to happen. so i mean, as far as strategy is concerned,

i don't think you can make any sense of it whatsoever. i mean, the russians are just waiting this out. we knew technically from the beginning they had no chance of losing. but i think we have to define what winning and losing is to really get a grasp on what's going on over there. yeah, well that's why i said i did this, i'm calling this pro a program avoiding defeat. i mean, what they did, they want to starve off to feed because they know victory is illusory. but that's not solving the problem there. wilma, with them. if i go back to you in, in washington, i've looked at some of these border negotiations. i don't know what these republicans are talking about, that those are not real negotiations. that is just a way to get money and money laundering through because it's not that's not border control. i don't know how you feel about this emigration issue here. but these republicans, this they're, they're essentially lying to their public saying that as a deal in play and then blaming it on trump for goodness, like he's not even in office here. i tend to agree with what processing is that

they're going to find a way to get the money, even if i have to fudge the board or go ahead and washington well, the border discussion has never really been an honest discussion in terms of trying to solve the problem have any of these issues ever been honestly discussed since a game? so because, for example, a lot of the data that they're using in terms of all, now there is this incredible increase in immigrants crossing the border. well, they don't talk about the fact that the manner of, of, of, of, of border protection and arrest has the, they've changed their processes. and since they've changed their processes, that has resulted in more arrests, that doesn't necessarily mean that there's just dramatic influx of people trying across the border. they don't talk about us policy in latin america. they don't talk about the impact that american economic policy is had on decimating the economies likely in these countries which are forcing people. they're not talking

about us policy and haiti, which is forcing haitians to try to find a better life. so it's never been an honest discussion, it's never been a serious problem. this is really just more blather and blabber for the sake of the election. and they're playing into the uh what trump, the one of the cards the trump was playing in the last selection. anti immigrants sent them in racism and in and xenophobia beer of the other. so whether it's rusher fabia or whether it's 0 phobia as it relates to just a whole cadre of immigrants trying to come into the united states. it doesn't really matter or, or, or maybe we're just not, we're all, or maybe we can talk on some common ground. it's just another way to spend taxpayers money. it's just another way to print money. and someone somewhere will claim a political victory. and, but i have, i have an idea, go ahead,

listed as homeless. this is on it is on a historic right seems to be cute, not did state of the import. there are a number of things that could, that were us tax payer dollars could be spent that would benefit americans as opposed to lockheed martin, boeing and raytheon. well, those are they all, you know, they base is, you know, the get closer. we would, we don't have money for that, but there was no money for that. there's not, you know, that's what we, they always say, but there's always money for, for israel, ukraine, etc. dma. again, you know, when i look at the, the, the coverage from so called the think tanks that don't seem to think very much is that they don't take into account rushes ames and they've already been aired on this program here. the knots vacation and demilitarization. that's the vector which they have to understand how russia will react to anything that any initiative that the us is a ukraine's primary back or we'll push demo. you're absolutely right, that the right of all these think that so we they will go like as the

who you are absolutely right. and then the senior moment. oh, you know, you mentioned category in this case number seats and i'm going to give would be the financial times. it's. it's our very best president. it's b b o c o that. uh, we will thank you for i do have gary is because you don't submit. we will wake up coordination. we will degrade the, the standards will crash your economy. you know, basically essentially a dma. essentially what they want to do is they want hungry. they look like ukraine, i thought you know, that it was supposed to be the demonstration of bank, where you credit would look like the you, but no way want to turn hungry into your credit and keep going the amount. exactly . i mean, we have been told that the, you gary g believe instead of this always populates and that if you are a member of the, you know, guarantee that you will leave decent lifestyle,

you know, and now we see, you know, you use something very different. you know, these are people who, i, if you were doing something wrong with disagree, your names, those were go, don't write a game. i just was told them that, you know, we talked about us money for, for greenforest community for this is just a little bit said that it was a very good deal, you know, invest, do you agree and all was why? because i cool. we have been able to destroy and degree the russian army substantially. oh, nice. you know, you spend hundreds of thousands of lives of degree just, you know, the deal russians and now you sell it to the american probably go. so this isn't going to be as good as the some people seem to think that students are always smart know seems to be very stupid. and again, you know, how does this bureau because you work just don't say the wrong things haven't would be they, they think your mobile friendly, warm, installed use. otherwise,

you can say very simple things you can say. and it's nice that to be cute. so people, it's nice as well, going to be on you call and get it. so i want to make the for so, i mean it's, it's a real oh, you know, india in this and misery ration here past that. it isn't really incredible. it is simply incredible. to me, we have the e u meeting there, they're gonna try, they're going to put a lot of pressure on a picture of the bottom to go along with them. i don't think he will in the end, but at the same time, in the mean this gathering of, of, uh, uh, countries in the u. they're talking about a, a long term, 50000000000 euro program for ukraine. what about the, the continents? farmers, haven't they noticed what kind of move they're in all, all across the continent, in france and germany in poland, etc. but they have money for ukraine. they shows you how disconnected these people

are as well. it also tells you, you know, how much you know, how previously they also think that they're going to get away with this at the end of the day. but i mean, nobody's ever held accountable. you know, it's for the figure. they just, you know, we have a saying over here at the united states of the major, right? they'll just eventually forget it. no it onto something else. so i think in europe they think they're going to do the same thing. maybe they'll start in another world war or something, get taiwan involved, and people will automatically forget about what's going on. you know, it's crazy peter. the other day, i was watching the new hampshire primary. and there was a, nikki haley supporter that said that he, he was supporting nikki haley. he voted for binding cuz he refused to vote for trump in the last election. he's supporting mickey healey because mickey, he's one of our biggest issues is the ukraine war. i mean it's, they're demented over here. so i think the people in europe, the leaders in europe, the ruling class think they can do the same thing they do in the united states.

just pivot to something else. and they'll forget about what happened yesterday. and they'll concentrate and what's in front of them tomorrow. wilmer, what kind of um, role do you think ukraine will play in the upcoming election? obviously, we're all aware of what's going on in gaza, and unfortunately that's not going to be resolved any time soon. the, the share mystery of watching editor, and we're all culpable. we're all witnesses. it's really degrading morally for all of us. but we're talking about you crate on this program despite and just want to pivot or does he want to just uh, pay up and hopefully like processing no one's really good. notice go ahead in washington. yes, i think that ukraine is going to play a smaller in smaller role as it relates to the narrative of the 2024 election because it is a lost cause. but it's biden's war, isn't it? i mean the own up to it. go ahead to go. well, we're going to see really to that's

a very good point because i think the donald trump, once he gets on the camp, once he gets out of court and gets on the campaign trail, he will start to raise the issue of ukraine because it is crumbs because it is bibles war and it is a loss and he will be able to point to that. and so you see, i couldn't solve this in a day. i could have picked up the telephone talk to vladimir boot, and then we couldn't solve the whole problem. but now the united states has wasted all of this money, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. it'll be very interesting to see whether or not the main stream picks up on that trump narrative and, and shift its focus away. well, wouldn't you know where, where we have profit even gaza to what's happening? what was happening? what we have now? is it blinking, saying, you know, rushes already lost, but if they've already lost, why do you need 60000000 dollars? i'm sorry to ask these kind of questions gentlemen, that's all the time we have. i want to take my guess in florida, washington, and here in moscow. and of course i want to thank our viewers for watching us here

are the see you next time. remember process the the,

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