which has been dumped digital po hall, but this was with former c i a l as larry johnson, besides the c, i actions while i do as constitutional protections by spying or his own citizens. what made what the united states was doing. so egregious is that it was spine on its own citizens that was violating constitutional protections. there are many other countries around the world that don't have those protections enshrined in their constitution or under a law. but it is, it does exist in the united states. and here the c i a whose job is they're supposed to spy on foreigners, people overseas. but they were turning their spine on to their own american citizens, to our people, be persecuted and prosecuted for, for speech, for exercising free speech. and the fact that they're going after julian, the saw on the espionage charges and that he would face the death penalty is just

absurd. he's a journalist who was doing his job as a journalist. he was not acting on behalf of some foreign government. and what he exposed expose lies expose misdeeds, expose criminal acts by the united states and by other countries. so that sort of what's happened with this was become a tyrannical government, where it's going to punish people, incarcerate them, or even execute them as possible for daring to reveal truths. and it's, uh, that's not what the 1st amendment was designed to do. the father rows of this is our how of a former c i a agent don't because you have your host the wish loads on next. how will the back of a simple down the sometimes a whistleblower does every thing, right. he or she makes a revelation that is clearly in the public interest. the revelation is clearly

a violation of the law and then he or she is even more clearly abused by the government. it would be great if the story is always had happy endings. unfortunately they don't i'm john kerry echo welcome to the whistle blowers the . 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 today we're going to tell you about a bona fide hero. david mcbride is a former british army officer and the. busy leader with the australian special forces who blew the whistle on war crimes committed by australian soldiers in afghanistan. after failing to raise a response through official channels. mcbride shared the information with the australian broadcasting corporation, which then published a series of major reports based on the material, the abc broadcast and 2017, led to a major inquiry that upheld many of mcbride's allegations. despite this,

however, abc edits, journalist themselves came under threat of prosecution for their work on the story . mcbride himself was prosecuted for dissemination of official information. we'll tell you more about that in a moment, but let's go back a few years. david mcbride is a seasoned attorney. after studying for a 2nd law degree at oxford university, he joined the british military and eventually moved back to us trail. yeah. where he became a lawyer in the australian defense forces. in that role, he had to tours it, ask in a stand in 20112013. while on deployment. mcbride became critical of the terms of engagement and other regulations that soldiers were working under, which he felt were endangered and military personnel for the sake of political imperatives determined elsewhere by 2014 mcbride had compiled a da ca, into profound command failings that saw examples of potential war crimes in

afghanistan overlooked, and other soldiers wrongly accused, his internal complaints were suppressed and ignored. mcbride's reports also looked at other matters, including the military's handling of sexual abuse allegations. after his use of internal channels had proven ineffective, mcbride gave his report to the police and eventually he contacted journalist at abc . nbc is asked and files documented several incidents of australian soldiers killing on armed civilians, including children, and questioned the prevalent war culture in the special forces. subsequent to mcbride's disclosures, the behavior of other coalition special forces in afghanistan, also came under sustained investigation. in many ways, mcbride's reports went further than the issues identified by abc, mid prevalent rumors. that australian troops were responsible for war crimes, questionable depths enough, can

a stand had led to cause for investigations. in november 2020. the raritan report was finally published utterly vindicating allegations by mcbride and abc judge. paul barrington found evidence of multiple incidents involving australian personnel that had led to $39.00 debts among his recommendations for the investigation of these incidents for possible future criminal charges. we'll talk about what happened next with our guest, david mcbride. david, thank you so much for being with us. thank you, john for having the it's in the now the honors mine, i want to start with the bad news, david, following your heroic actions following the findings by the raritan inquiry that you told the truth. the australian government still insisted on prosecuting you and a court decision on november 17th found that you could indeed be prosecuted. and the documents that you needed for the government to provide you for your defense

could legally be withheld from your team. just as i did in an almost identical situation here in the united states, back in 2012, you will like to plead guilty to try to mitigate the damage. so what is next for you? when will you be sentenced, and do you have any idea what that sentence might be? i'll be say, just in march next year, 12 for bob's 2024. the judge into that is not guarantees, but the jim to that something calls an intensive correction or he said he get his test for that. that means if i get that and there's not a guarantee. but if, if i do get that, that means i don't actually go behind the prison walls. but your, uh, you still get a sentence of 3 or 4 years. he's on your record as a prison sentence. can you just have to comply with very stringent conditions

should be live bang on parole early august. so he will gleam. it may probably it'll be quite difficult for me to have a copy of the united states. for example, when i have to fill out on my form to be able to be given to the real effects and i have to put to have 3 very big ones. i, there are ways around it is diag above and i think it might be on some a few blacklist but which already be able to say actually, because i've got a little afraid to the united states like you and others. but i like to have to keep these one data to either. does that too much? yes. it's a do we there is with said piece before, but if the dates to be set a guy, verizon, verizon, loving similarities between your case and my case. so yeah, there's a lot of the issues i've used to be if the universe has got

a sense of humor and i think it sometimes does how you 6 sort of see where you used to feel a little bit. it's peoria. just say, oh, well, for all john curiosity or he didn't have a just the reason the faded seat, you know, in the u. s. at least up with lace in australia. we've got a public interest defense. frank bought a lo and behold. whether or not the, the us is controlled like a strategy and lawyers is very nice, but it's the idea of a public interest. the face does not exist in a strider anymore either. and uh, i know more had a public you just defense than you do. absolutely. traffic, and as you said i, i didn't even know the id. it was a palm and i should to me a year ago that i would put it guilty. there was really no choice. and then the stride and court run the revised, even though everybody was smiling and wearing waves and downs like it was on sort

of all british when it couldn't be there was very little difference between um the security code. what the do you face? do me a street based in district of virginia or wherever was yes, where it was really just the style of this charge. all i, we understand the not only was there no public interest to face, and the judge said, it doesn't matter what it is. it doesn't matter whether it's the chief or the defense for stealing secrets to john up or taking bribes or a pitiful reading within just seeing your offices or kind of believes if it does go bad. and that was quite shocking. but as, as, as i examined you, and not only that was, it's like a built in prices for the government. even if you were trying to improve something like that was going on. not that it would help you,

but we're not even gonna allow you to bring up a as in as document. now see what it does and that's the key. that's the key is from the very beginning. they simply will not allow you to defend yourself. so i wanted to ask you, if you could walk us through this mess, as soon as you made your revelations as an independent inquiry began, and it found quickly that you had told the truth and that war crimes had been committed by the military. yet here we are with you being the only person prosecuted in this case. you said correctly a moment ago that there are disturbing parallels between your case and my case. i always hoped or i hoped over the last 13 years that what happened to me wouldn't happen to somebody else, but you had an almost identical experience. tell us about that. a. yeah, now that's rot um, a guy in a few years ago. something like the,

the expression, the, the post truth world would cause me to roll my eyes. but unfortunately, that is hard to just say that that's not an expression and it didn't matter. it never came into. it was never even conceded. it was never a fact. uh, where the one on the side was true. it was an effect. uh where the one office. i mean that the country was being run by criminals or wondering hopefully project to the end of the die my. my face, as was astride, there is not a properly protected, right, because the defense department doesn't project destroyer anymore. the defense department protects the government and that's it for the serious. all like allegation, i knew which side of it. yeah. you would have thought that's an exception. if in fact l, country is not a properly protected by the people who are meant to do your reckon they'd want to

find out whether that allegation is true. but it is very categories that you have, which i will either trial of that national security number, affective, be side dash the securities are relevant, right? right, that's umbrella. but it's a really hot weather wherever it's almost you wouldn't solve it this way. it's irrelevant with the security services are actually doing the job or not. chris, what matters is that you do your job by keeping that fax safe, you know, and they really the way it shows you have or did you listen, scott, when they ended, i went to say them to lay some of a sudden on the lower body president once on this arrest and i said look, i'm going to tell you the full story. i do not to begin with the a, you know, because i was still trying to get justice. but once i, i could say the version was on the line with new stories coming out,

and people beginning to see that every sheet. it was a rise, the, the disney land in afghanistan, it'll, of things were quite different to what we tried. i pled guilty and i said, i just, uh, i mean i gave, i said i gave the documents a that much is true and, but i was justified. and the police interviewed me were very fed. i had no problems with it. but i said they asked me this question, which sy store which sort of traffic and i say, but when you gave your security clearance and you saw and off on side, right. will say about damage. you would never release anything to the the, the maybe or have a right. you clearly breaks that so that how we don't have to go any further. and i was like, no, we're not. well, i did my security players. it was all the provides of it definitely did i you know we, we do is out of raj, you gigi, to protect the distributors,

national security. and if i see some of these, which absolutely guys guides that which is good. i actually by destroying the west side, i don't care whether it's an official policy or not. if it is something which goes against the very values that we are meant to be protecting. i'm obviously going to, uh do something about it. um, you know, it logic. you know, you get a safety safety briefings on an airplane, and this is doug, do this to do that right now. if you have to do so, the ego order stuff, the airplane, aggression, to be live that i said some of them. i think it was 3 main lines with the, the junior, all it was to escape still a senior paula heading towards the mouth and then the aggression to the bad. now i remember that where the rule is used to will senior part of what to do, do a certain exceptions. i never see was that they would never be any exceptions where i would have to go to the bay. yeah. and especially if i school on a surprise,

national security was the dumb down. and just like you the old guys, this has nothing to do with my career. all this. no, no, the nice not at all i issue and, and i can, i can attest to that. i know you, we're friends. i know that this, this certainly had nothing to do with your career. this was, this was about violations of the law and hold that side if you will. we're speaking with famed australia national security was the blower. david mcbride about his positively task. ask experience, blowing the whistle on the australian military's war crimes in afghanistan. david, stay right there. with us, we're going to take a short break, but please stay tuned. when we come back, we're going to talk about what's next for david mcbride. and what he has received from the whistle blowing community see to the. 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 the

now can you use visa, stupid loyce law here? see it to nancy. click comes and then this is just me very the the only showcase use the so i'm just going to the boys at the boys. the probably the most name that'll be for them. i'm not sure if this slaughter doesn't want that. the text i'm putting notes up under that to

the the welcome back to the whistle blowers. i'm john kerry. uncle, we're speaking with australian national security whistleblower david mcbride. good . have you been with us? david, thanks for joining. thank you john. david, we, national security was of lowers, especially in the us australia and the u. k. all stick together. we're all friends . we all remain in touch. i'm proud to call you

a friend. what kind of support of he received from the whistle blowing community and from the west of like n g o's, have they done anything to help make this experience a little bit more tolerable? well, is the party like another waste of law and i saw you in the city by surprise actually . um bill bosh tribunal for julian is andre. every 8 shield buy energy levels. i actually, i thought you were going to be appearing live video going well. i had to sneak into australia to tell you the truth. oh yeah. yeah. that was such a joy. and um, uh yeah, i'm surprised and i wouldn't let josie many of you know. and so, but yeah, that was them was such a joy and i saw in you twice and we had a bit of a love what really helped me was it when you told me about doing tell i'm like a saw i see to it maybe that was on the fine, but i already made g once and because i bid you, you know, i feel like you know,

like you're in the right. and that really helped me because you don't necessarily, well, you get a job, you worked in the business and you don't necessarily need accommodated secrecy. but you do need somebody to say, yeah, rock on. that's what i use the categories because is that once you receive it, that it does help a little bit just uh yeah, a little kids you know, it's not save of done for yourself all about that. well, i like to see it helps me. i don't know whether it'll do you obviously use spine analogies, but i am, well, i like to use the analogy useful literature and end up costing us to set aside that you have, you know, in um, wherever so, lot of the results of the there are there are bad forces that they haven't done expected to ever just suddenly get go to the the like holes and you evade like big

backs and you take them out with the storage. yeah. yeah, that's right. of a cetera. there are just some, you know, bad dude. yeah. there and um, and you gotta fly them and you just have to extend it there's, there's a few more than i expected. but uh, you know, he said it was lucky this quarter. and that's where one reason i've been very lucky . you are a bit lucky besides the mcginn, not the only one that's right anymore and there's about 6 to this industry. and that makes such a difference because the government, i'm sure they tried this with you, but they tried to have any kind of was of law with your corporate. oh god. but guess the side seat and the media points at all. he was that he was a described to he or she was a crazy person or didn't live right. and back inside that would made that tried that would, may have been this other guy in the techs office. and there's another guy from the about the banking and there's another guy about the police and it starts to

wherever a big scene where the public but nice style 0 crazy paper roll, misguided effort. so just meeting with the maybe you don't even have to cite their budget as we did with you. that's right. i think i have a particular point with you because you're really that you're raising the security business. and the party understands, you know, the military's less security complex. mike, but not another person. and you, you handle yourself with which such grace as you might as have viewed um and that inspires make, that makes me lift myself due to your level one of the side that the one of the, one of the important purposes of life history. surround yourself with data of people better than yourself. that's right. and you know, at least yourself to the level. so i've really enjoyed it. i love stayed with the program. it gives me hype. it's very slick, it's very professional, and it's

a good k h. a good to be thought of david, i have to say that the government success in your case was international news i, i actually learned about it in the american press and it immediately became a major topic of conversation in whistleblower circles. honestly, people here, people who, you know, people like, like genuine rate and thomas drake and bill benny were outraged. what, what is the media reaction been in australia after the raritan findings? it would seem to me that the media ought to be outraged. has that been the case? well, it was a bit of a vehicle on time and they never did the powerful voices. i tried to say, oh, well, the cases i have a, a was a family about little grimes, a number. uh, a and you, your son was good and it just is in your case it's hard to get people to care about

it. but while i say it wasn't even a more, i'm sore on top of the story. but then we're on the top and, and actually the truth, whether or not the best public, and understand the as, as in the georgia, minimize, the truth is much worse than just the people at the bottom doing the wrong thing. that's really too terrible. say is that people looked at tall, adeline charging, we're covering up with and that's always paid my side because and, and so the deal was with you a bit of a role across the 1st my reputation. we went down and they were like, oh he's not really, we says he is a minute. saw the come up because i was able to come out and so i always prayed about the leadership and i done my dad show on life. a matter of fact,

i probably got a bit more support because there was, there's a certain amount of conservatives in australia who without knowing much about my ties, didn't but you like me because i sort of style, you know, soul just make it to have a hard job and i shouldn't be, no, we shouldn't stick and guess therapy is back in the strider advantage. they've sort of a some sort of bleeding. ha, um they have, i know that they do, hopefully they dying engaged. they now know that that's not the types it was. it had 2 bottles of any kind of lady. huh. are they know that all and rolando and various other places he is it was a goal. i said lot and i, and since i like you, you are not for the next you know, right above all. yeah. and even the people who are on this special forces, soldiers who complained about all the special forces, they will all be bleeding out for you. but they just said there was

a law i'm and we crossed that law, i'm 80 is a problem and it's not enough for the biggest of any namby pamby v by if we start to become a criminal organization. if we say these are the rules, but we don't follow the rules because it doesn't stop there. and david, you and i of course, have both followed. the julian assigned case very closely. we both tried to be as helpful as possible. it's hardening that after all these years, julian has finally begun attracting some attention from, from australian parliamentarians, official australians. has there been much in the way of official support for you and for your your whistle blowing there, there have to be members of parliament to have to have a pines that you've performed really a great public service. has there been that kind of a reaction? yeah, there's the green, the green, honda you a much more than just an environmental pot event and i have been very good i ended

and we had a bit of a revolution, a genuine rentals shooting out politics and then like the us, we really just have 2 bodies and they're pretty much the sign, right. it's an illusion to think that the direct was changed to ready to blow directly below. and i think really just, but in the last election we had a whole lot of people that called the tales who were sort of off green, hopkins and, and i, why the and the 9 and is a, a, the balance of power now. and i support me good. um, well, i say balance of power is i got a job, i really do it easy. but the pressure but the culture to get them on a crunchy. so based upon them, they would be hard for them to really be in jail for a long period of time,

because say they do have enough people, they don't have enough people to do anything. but there's enough people now to keep the so, so be an even some other the consent to use the right when i now stretching the hedge, because as me can't find back far away. now, some, some of the sort of progressives, you know, he was really drawn around what he was trying to protect bad people. some of the conservatives the, like what he was trying to protect, solve is it did nothing wrong, right? and he's not such a bad thoughts or the bottom line is using the bottom line is we are, we are either our, our countries are either going to be nations governed by the rule of law or, or they're not one or the other. and if people like you that have ensure that that we will be david mcbride, thank you so much for joining us. and god speed in this awful experience may have passed quickly. the reverend doctor martin luther king told us in the mid 19

sixty's that's a more convenient verse is long, but advanced toward justice. that is true. justice sometimes takes years sometimes decades, sometimes life times. but right is right. david mcbride is on the right side of history. the next few years may be tough for him, but he will take his place in that pantheon of those who put the wellbeing of innocence above their own well being. the world is a better place because of that. thanks for joining us for another episode or for whistle blowers. i'm john kerry onto we'll see you next time. 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 the acceptance, and i'm here to plan with you whatever you do,

do not watch my new show. seriously. why watch something that's so different whitelisted opinions that he won't get anywhere else. welcome to plans or do they have the state department, the c, i a weapons makers, multi $1000000000.00 corporations. choose your facts for you. go ahead, change and whatever you do. don't marshall stay main street because i'm probably going to make you uncomfortable. my show is called stretching time, but again, it's not, we don't want to watch it because it might just change the way you a hi has to guess to do a president this event, excuse himself, is basically delusion and that he has become drunk with his own rhetoric as well as flats or visa to use to receives from the rest. i think this has read it to range. to me, it is a bit disturb trust, relationship to attitude. this is true about everyone around 2 icons. imagine

the times it has carried out to a $125.00 bombings on a rocky and syrian territories, and responds. bonsai has pulled out washington. that's where things leading to the bottom. it was in size. the most modern russian weapons often period to the foreign comfortable sizes of the country's defense minister releases the natives. number them cues by sophia says it's right for you. and i think campaign in hong unit and now has a slight set. all of the sudden the city of drop off even behind the trail of destruction and this back across beyond.