i look forward to talking to you all that technology should work for people. a robot must obey the orders given it by human beings, except we're so shorter is that conflict with the 1st law show your identification . we should be very careful about our personal intelligence. the point obviously is to trace a truck or rather than to the area. i mean with the artificial intelligence we have summoning the theme and the robot must protect his phone. existence was on the the sometimes a whistle blower does every thing, right. he or she makes a revelation that is clearly in the public interest. the revelation is clearly

a violation of the law and then he or she is even more clearly abused by the government. it would be great if the story is always had happy endings. unfortunately they don't i'm john to reaku. welcome to the whistle blowers the . 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 today we're going to tell you about a bona fide hero. david mcbride is a former british army officer and a lawyer with the australian special forces who blew the whistle on war crimes committed by australian soldiers in afghanistan. after failing to raise a response through official channels, mcbride shared the information with the australian broadcasting corporation, which then published a series of major reports based on the material bbc broadcast in 2000. and 17, led to a major inquiry that upheld many of mcbride's allegations. despite this,

however, abc edits, journalist themselves came under threat of prosecution for their work on the story . mcbride himself was prosecuted for dissemination of official information. we'll tell you more about that in a moment, but let's go back a few years. david mcbride is a seasoned attorney. after studying for a 2nd law degree at oxford university, he joined the british military and eventually moved back to us trail. yeah. where he became a lawyer in the australian defense forces. in that role, he had 2 tours in afghanistan in 20112013. while on deployment, mcbride became critical of the terms of engagement and other regulations that soldiers were working under which he felt were endangered in military personnel for the sake of political imperatives determined elsewhere by 2014 mcbride had compiled a da ca, into profound command failings that saw examples of potential war crimes in afghanistan

overlooked, and other soldiers wrongly accused his internal complaints were suppressed and ignored. mcbride's reports also looked at other matters, including the military's handling of sexual abuse allegations. after his use of internal channels had proven ineffective, mcbride gave his report to the police and eventually he contacted journalist at abc . nbc is asked and files documented several incidents of australian soldiers killing on arm civilians, including children, and questioned the prevalent war culture in the special forces. subsequent to mcbride's disclosures, the behavior of other coalition special forces in afghanistan, also came under sustained investigation. in many ways, mcbride's reports went further than the issues identified by abc. i mean prevalent rumors that australian troops were responsible for war crimes, questionable deaths, enough dentist,

and had led to calls for investigations in november 2020. the raritan report was finally published utterly vindicating allegations by mcbride and abc judge. paul barrington found the evidence of multiple incidents involving australia and personnel that had led to $39.00 depths among his recommendations for the investigation of these incidents for possible future criminal charges. we'll talk about what happened next with our guest, david mcbride. david, thank you so much for being with us. thank you, john for having the it's a know now the honors mine. i want to start with the bad news, david, following your heroic actions following the findings by the raritan inquiry that you told the truth. the australian government still insisted on prosecuting you and a court decision on november 17th found that you could indeed be prosecuted. and the documents that you needed for the government to provide you for your defense

could legally be withheld from your team. just as i did in an almost identical situation here in the united states, back in 2012, you elected to plead guilty to try to mitigate the damage. so what is next for you? when will you be sentenced and do you have any idea? what that sentence might be, i'll be say, just in march next year, 12 march 2024. the judge into that does not guarantee the gym to that. some of the goals and intensive correction, or he said he get his test for that. that means if i get added, there's not a guarantee. but if, if i do get that, that means i don't actually go behind the prison walls. but your, you still get a sentence of 3 or 4 years. he's on your record as a prison sentence. can you just have to comply with very stringent conditions is

a big white thing on parole early august. so he will blame it may be probably it will be quite difficult for me to ever come to the united states. for example, when i have to fill out on my full name to be able to be given to repeat real effects and i'll have to put down 3 very big ones. there are ways around data rated as guides above and i think it might be on some of a few blacklist which already deal with sad actually because i've got a lot of rates in the united states like you and others. but i like to have to keep these one data to live. it does that too much? yes. it's the way there is with said this before, but if the data to be set a guy, there's a, there's a lot of similarities between your case and my case. so yeah, there's a lot of the issues i've used to the, the, the, if the universe has got

a sense of humor and i think it sometimes does. i used to sort of, we used to feel a little bit it's peoria. just say, oh, well carl, john, carrie out there. he didn't have a just the origin, the faded seat, you know, in the us at least up with lace to the strategy. and we've got a public interest defense, frank funded lo and behold, whether or not the, the us is controlled like a strategy. and lord is by, who knows. but the idea of a public interest face does not exist in australia anymore either. and i know more had a public interest rates than you'd absolutely traffic. and as you said, i, i didn't even know is the id. it was a palm and i should send me a year ago that i would play guilty. there was really no choice. and then the striking, called reading the revised, even though everybody was smiling and wearing waves and downs like it was done,

sort of all the british to read it couldn't be there was very little difference between um the security code. what they do, you face, do me a street based in district of virginia or wherever was yes. where it was really just the style of this charge. all i, we understand is that normally was there no public interest to face. and the judge said it doesn't matter. what it is, it doesn't matter whether it's the chief or the defense for stealing secrets to john up or taking bribes or pitiful reading within. just seeing your offices or cannibal is if it does go bad. and that was quite shocking. but e, as, as besides you and your daughter on the that was it's like a built in prices for the government. even if you were trying to prove something like that was going on. not that it would help you,

but we're not even gonna allow you to bring up the advertise. don't even know, see what you just said, and that's the key. that's the key is from the very beginning. they simply will not allow you to defend yourself. so i wanted to ask you, if you could walk us through this mess, as soon as you made your revelations as an independent inquiry began, and it found quickly that you had told the truth and that war crimes had been committed by the military. yet here we are with you being the only person prosecuted in this case. you said correctly a moment ago that there are disturbing parallels between your case and my case. i always hoped or i hoped over the last 13 years that what happened to me wouldn't happen to somebody else, but you had an almost identical experience. tell us about that. yeah, no, that's wrong. um, a guy in a few years ago,

something like the expression, the price truth world would cause me to roll my eyes. but unfortunately that it is hard to just say that that's not an expression and it didn't matter. it never came into. it was never even conceded, it was never a soft job where the one i was saying was true. it was an effect with a one of a sign may that the country was being run by criminals or wondering hopefully project to the end of the die. my, my face as was astride, there is not a properly protected, right. because the defense department doesn't project to strike you anymore. the defense department protects the government and that's a pretty serious all like allegation. i knew which side of it. yeah. you would have for that, that exception if in fact country is not they properly protected by the people who are meant to do your reckon they'd want to find out whether that allegation is true

. but it is very categories that you average i will eat a trial of that national security number affective be psych, dash the securities are relevant, right? right. that's a relevant, it's a relevant where the where it's almost, you wouldn't solve it this way. it's irrelevant with the security services are actually doing the job or not. chris, what matters is that you do your job by keeping that fact sake or, you know, if they really the way it shows you have agreed to us, it's got when they ended, i went to say the place i'm always sitting on the lower body president. once i was arrested i said look, i'm going to tell you the full story. i do not to begin with the a, you know, because i was still trying to get justice. but once i, as i could say, the version was on the way of, of new stories coming out. and people beginning to see that every sheet and it was

a rise, the, the just the land in afghanistan, it'll, of things were quite different to what we tried. i pled guilty and i said, i just, uh, i mean i gave you, i sent, i gave the documents a that much is true and but i was justified. and the police interviewed me, we've already said i had no problems with it. but i said, hey, ask this question, which type store, which sort of traffic. and i said when you gave your security clearance and you saw and off on side, right was never damaged. you would never release anything to the see the maybe or have a right. you clearly breaks that so that we don't have to go any further. and i was like, no, we're not going. i did my security players. it was all the providers of it. definitely do like, you know, we, we do is the overarching gigi,

to protect the distributors national security. and if i say something which absolutely does a guides that which is good. i actually by destroying the west side, i don't care whether it's an official policy or not. if it is something which goes against the very values that we are meant to be protecting. i'm obviously going to do something about that. but you know, it lot to, you know, you get a safety safety briefings on an airplane, and this is doctor used to do that right now. if you have to do so, the order to stop the airplane crushing to be live that i said some of them, i think it was 3 and a lives with the the junior all it was to escape until the senior paula heading towards the mouth and then the aggression to the bad. now i remember that where the rule is, you got to was in your part of what to do to resend exceptions. i never see for that. they would never be any exceptions where i would have to go to the. yeah. and

especially if i school on a surprise, national security was the dumb down. and just like you, your guys, this has nothing to do with my career. all this. no, no, the nice not at all i issue and, and i could, i could attach to that. i know you were friends. i know that this certainly had nothing to do with your career. this was, this was about violations of the law and hold that side if you will. we're speaking with famed australia. national security was the blower. david mcbride about his positively task, ask experience, blowing the whistle on the australian military's war crimes in afghanistan. david, stay right there with us. we're going to take a short break, but please stay tuned. when we come back, we're going to talk about what's next for david mcbride and what he has received from the wisdom blowing community state to the. 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 the,

i have to guess the president this event, excuse himself, is basically delusional. and that he has become drunk with his own rhetoric as well as flats or visa to use to receives from the rest. i think this has really to arrange to meet it's a bit destruct his relationship to reality. struby about everyone around 2 icons. imagine the the welcome back to the whistle blowers. i'm john kerry. uncle, we're speaking with australian national security whistleblower. david mcbride. good

. have you been with us, david, thanks for joining to. thank you, john. david, we, national security was of lowers, especially in the us australia and the u. k. all stick together. we're all friends . we all remain in touch. i'm proud to call you a friend. what kind of support if you received from the whistle blowing community and from the west of like n g o's, have they done anything to help make this experience a little bit more tolerable? well, is the party like another wish law and i saw you were interested in the by surprise actually. um bill boss tribunal for julian is on j 8 shield buy energy levels. i actually, i thought you were going to be a, be ready by video. right? well, i have to sneak into australia to tell you the truth. yeah. yes, that was such a joy and um, uh yeah, i'm surprised and they wouldn't let josie many of you know. and so, but yeah, that was stem was such a joy and i saw you twice and we had a bit of

a love what really helped me was it when you told me about doing tell i'm like a saw i see color maybe that was on the fine, but i know what he made, he wants to because i've made you, you know, i feel like you know what you're in the right. and that really helped me because you don't, you don't necessarily, well, when you get a job, you worked in the business and you don't necessarily need accommodated secrecy. but you do need somebody to say, yeah, rock on. that's why i use the categories because is that once you receive it, that it does help a little bit just yeah, look, it's a nice not save of done yourself. well about that. well, i like to see if it helps me. i don't know whether it will do you obviously use spine analogies, but i am, well, i like to use an analogy useful leakage here and end up costing you asked is the

other side that you have, you know in um whether it's the load or the rings or somebody there are, there are bad forces that they haven't done expected to ever just suddenly get go to the, the like holes and you evade like big backs and you take them out with the sort of yeah. yeah, that's right. of a cetera. there are just some, you know, bad dude. yeah, there and, and you got to fly them and you just have to extend it is there's a few more than i expected. but uh, you know, it may say it was a lucky visit this quarter, and that's where one reason i've been very lucky. you are a bit lucky besides the media, not the only one that's right anymore. and there's about 6 to this industry. and that makes such a difference because the government, i'm sure they tried this with you, but they try and have any kind of was of law whether your corporate or god, but gifts for side see. and the media points at all. he was that he was

a described to he or she was a crazy person or didn't like right. and back inside that would made that tried that would make it then there's this other guy in the tax office. and there's another guy from the about the banking and there's another guy about the police and it starts to wherever a big scene where the public, when i say, 00, crazy neighbor, roll me scott. so just meeting with the maybe you don't even have to say that budget as we did with you. that's right. i think i have a particular phone with you because you're reading that you're reading the security business and what he understands in the middle to raise less security complex. mike, but another post and you, you handle yourself with. we such grace as you might as have viewed um and that inspires made that makes me leaves myself due to your level one of the side

that the one of the, one of the important purposes of life is to surround yourself with peyton people better than yourself that's right, and you know, at least yourself to the 11. so i really enjoyed it. i love staying with the program. it gives me hype. it's very slick. it's very professional and it's a good k h. a good to be thought of. david, i have to say that the government success in your case was international news. i actually learned about it in the american press and it immediately became a major topic of conversation in whistleblower circles. honestly, people here, people who, you know, people like, like general and read back and thomas drake and bill benny were outraged. what, what is the media reaction been in australia after the raritan findings? it would seem to me that the media ought to be outraged. has that been the case a well, it was a bit of

a vehicle on time and i never did the path of was is i tried to say, oh well, they have the cases. i have a, a was rarely about little grimes a know it. and you, your some rate was good and it just is in your case, it's hard to get people to care about it. the whole while i say was a more or i'm sort of top all the story. but then we're on the top and, and actually the truth, whether or not the best public can understand the as, as in the torch. and then, but as the truth is much worse than just the people at the bottom doing the wrong thing. that's really too terrible say is that people looked at tall, adeline charging we're covering up with and that's always paid more focused. and and so there was a meeting with you, a bit of a roller coaster 1st and then you know,

my reputation. we went down and they were like, oh, he's not really it. we says he is and then it starts to come up because i was able to come out and so i always prayed about the leadership and i done my dad show on life. a matter of fact, i probably got a bit more support because there was, there's a certain amount of to say that it was in a strive to do without knowing much about my ties. didn't. but you like me because i sort of style, you know, soldiers the record to have a hard job and they shouldn't be not. we shouldn't stick. and guess therapy is back in the strider advantage. they've sort of a, some sort of bleeding. ha, uh they have, i know that they do, hopefully, if the daytime engaged, they now know that that's not the types it was it a tube of wasn't any kind of lady. huh. i, they know little island, rolando and various other places. he is. it was a go last a lot and i'm so i like you, you are not perfect. you know,

right above all. yeah. and even the people who are on this special forces sol, jessie, complained about all the special forces they will all be bleeding out for you. but i just said there is a law i'm and we cross that law. i'm 80 is a problem and it's not a problem because of any namby pamby the by if we start to become a criminal organization. if we side these are the rules, but we don't follow the rules because it doesn't stop there. and david, you and i, of course, have both followed the julian assigned case very closely. we both try to be as helpful as possible. it's hardening that after all these years, julian has finally begun attracting some attention from, from australian parliamentarians, official australians. has there been much in the way of official support for you and for your your whistle blowing there,

there have to be members of parliament to have to have a pines that you've performed really a great public service. has there been that kind of a reaction? yeah, there's the green, the green part a year through uh much more than just an environmental pot event. and i have been very good, i ended, and we had a bit of a revolution of genuine regulation you now politics and then like the us, we really just have 2 bodies and they're pretty much the sign. right. it's an illusion to think that the direct was change ready to blow to wrench below and nothing really just. but in the last election we had a whole lot of people. they called the tales who were sort of off green hopkins. and, and i was the and the 9 and is a, a the balance of power now and i support. okay. good. um. well i say balance of power is i got a job,

i really do it easy. but the pressure of i did a cold should to day, so that was on a conference and they had a problem and it would be hard for them to really be in job for a long period of time. because say they do have enough people, they don't have enough people to do anything. but there's enough people now to keep the so, so being even some other, the consent to use the right when i now stretching the hedge, because as me can find back far away. now, some, some of the sort of progressives, you know, he was really drawn around what he was trying to protect bad table. some of the conservatives are like what he was trying to protect. so because it did nothing wrong, right, and he's not such a bad cause or the bottom line is fusion. the bottom line is we're, we are either our, our countries are either going to be nations governed by the rule of law or,

or they're not one or the other. and if people like you that have ensure that, that we will be david mcbride, thank you. so much for joining us and god speed in this awful experience may have passed quickly. the reverend doctor martin luther king told us in the mid 19 sixty's that's a more or computer verse is long, but advanced toward justice. that is true. justice sometimes takes years sometimes decades, sometimes life times. but right is right. david mcbride is on the right side of history. the next few years may be tough for him, but he will take his place in that pantheon of those who put the wellbeing of innocence above their own well being. the world is a better place because of that. thanks for joining us for another episode of what was of lowers. i'm john kerry onto we'll see you next time. 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 the

1937 militaristic japan started up full scale invasion of china. the invading army was rapidly advancing towards the capital of the republic of china. the dies, the city of not seeing, leaving behind the burned down villages and thousands of the dead. on december 13th, the japanese occupied on z and states real massacre. for 6 weeks, the invaders exterminated the civilian population. they carried out mass executions, rates, women, and were engaged, been merciless robbery, ruthless confrontation of 2 officers of the imperial army. go see i'd be my guide

and to yoshi, no to gain particular notoriety. they competed with each other as to who would be the fastest to kill $100.00 chinese with us or this monstrous competition was widely reported in the japanese press. to none. z massacre claims the lives of about 300000 people and became one of the largest crimes against humanity in the world history. after world war 2, manufactures advance of the address of the phase trial. however, the commander of the japanese army in the non being operation, freeze yasu eco, a sock gun, was able to escape the responsibility. due to the interference of the american administration was arranged oh, why the can be cited by lines. please can be satisfied for the importance

of we can name of the code for station select transparency is next for to region listed cametrius. they'd just succeeded in finding documents that exist state and making them available to the was populate that mean what could be more moving box by publishing information and sharing information with the public. he was exercising the right to free speech. he did so in the public interest, wants to so long realize tends to me and golfing, and or a slate of late continuously. i know why advice may assume that no one who is the guy that illegal anymore wisely bought. adjustments for to be on box weighing a $175.00 used to do it. you do have sent. it's all we going to let that stay

the the u. s claims it's promoting piece by hitting hodge assets. miss halls, rain and town on 85 talk. it's in a rock and syria, a fact that wants to move, threaten stability and reach an allstate problem. the red crescent says one is it was has been killed along with 3 civilians, and his rate is shutting off the $7015.00 upon unit and the ongoing portals and knowledge and teen um nav lease class with protesters outside parliament purposes. we paying reform bill by the country's new president class at spot.