pills, everything every day, something goes up every day and i have to work for myself because i don't receive a subsidy. just a quick side note, if we run out of a solid program here or not, you remember helping us sabotaged rushes north stream gas pipelines, forcing europe to buy america liquefied natural gas at full times the market price . because this washington is now looking to stop energy exports due to a so called environmental concerns. but remember, europe, america is your buddy right. question. but with us that out to you international the i'm action or time. so you're welcome back to going underground,

broadcasting all around the world from the u. a. e. so has circled genocide, joe launched explicit war and energy superpower. iran this up to gaza. resistance forces killed. ok. bank american troops accused debating isis in the middle east. and one of the usa is reputation. it's so called soft power. now that the usa backs plausible genocide the to him, the world quote uses for the u. k. u. s. and you nation on back mass killing of tens of thousands of palestinians, mostly women, and children, and gaza. cauthrin clinton official professor joseph knife when the dean of the harvard kennedy school is credited with inventing the time, soft power is they just look at life. and the american century is like a who's who of level security powers. he charts, his rise to become charity usa is national security council, the assistant secretary at the pentagon. he joins me now from cambridge, massachusetts to thank you so much for visiting i, for coming on before we get to the book. i suppose i better off give a briefly about who you think would win a war with iran, given that to the debate right around the world. that obviously especially here in

the middle east. well, it depends what one means by winning a war. and i think you'd find broad losses on both sides, but american power versus a rating and power. and the simple term, it's not a question, but who will pay what cost is a more difficult customer to figure out? and people are suddenly looking to the, by the administration to understand that cost daily you. uh, you helped expand the harvard kennedy school. clearly from this book you show how do you worked on that but is, and i have to say some of the donors are associated with a back end israel, israel soft power gone. now these pictures are beaming all around the world, let alone the us as of power given to the entire international community is watching as the nature of power is back in um to the teeth. uh, this alleged on the side. well, i wouldn't say it's gone uh,

but it has been dated or damaged. um oh, i think one of the dangers is uh, it was defense. secretary lloyd austin, put it uh you can win a battle and lose a war. and now there's in terms of tactical successes of these release of demonstrating that they have a good deal of capability. but in terms of a soft r and the ability to attract others, i think the disproportionate number of casualties and gaza has indeed damaged their soft power and washington's soft to power. in recent years, let alone the garza as well as if it did again. i, i think the american sauce power has been damaged by the

disproportionate, the killing of civilians in the cause of war. uh, vitamin is plead for the israel eustace, take a more measured approach, but it, there still damage to americans. sauce power. on the other hand, if you look at the american soft power over the years, it, it goes up and down. i mean, sauce power is the ability to get what you want through attraction, rose and coercion or payment. and there are times in the past where american soft power has been very badly damaged. for example, in the 19 sixty's. there were some protests around the world against the vietnam war. but by the 1980s the american positions were had recovered separately. i think you see americans soft power damaged. i asked for the rock and taishan,

but then when obama selected it recovers its damaged again by trump. recover somewhat would by uh, so the, the in this can be ascertained by the, on the public opinion polls. the po, trust, trump, is a jumps leading in those opinion polls. right. so, looks like no, no i, i, yeah, no i, that's a question or will it be come back? and if he does that would have a severe negative effect on american soft power. but i meant if you, if you look at public opinion polls that a company like pew has done asking people, i hate to 27 different countries, whether they found america or china more attractive. basically the americans come out ahead, i think good a is 25 of the 2070 countries. so there can soft power goes up and down. it could be dented. on the other hand, in comparative terms,

is still relatively strong. yeah, paradoxically, that same view polls us at the united states was a big threat. they so the us is a threat of i understand, i mean, you wrote in 2015 that but global futures is the american century over and you were quite sanguine. you were looking at the idea that actually you look at history and you see people for how to prematurely predict the end of american. uh oh, sorry, any impact whether it be british or any, any of you don't think you're gonna have to revise that off to ukraine, not after ukraine. i think i revised cd for trump is elected in november. i think he will do so here. damage to american power, but remember that a lot of countries, sauce power to attractiveness, comes from it. civil society not just from is government. government does broadcasting and has policies and those can affect, it detracted this. but um,

if a country has a vibrant civil society that attracts others, it's better able to recover. i think back to give me the hollywood and science of ours, hollywood in the science, but also things like the civil rights movement in it's in the sixty's. the people were marching in the streets around the world to protest american government policy in c. it, um, but they weren't sending the communist international. they were singing martin luther king's, we shall ever. com, which is an anthem from the american civil society. so i think in the, in that sense of asking is there resilience and terms of ability recover? i think there's still a good deal resilience in american civil society. maybe because vietnam speech wasn't broke as why these guy ever dream is to be true. no,

no is go back to this new book. you knew stanley johnson, he was a regular on this program at oxford. and you say in the book you had shocked his son became prime minister. what do you make of the evidence that suggests he was sent to destroy a negotiated ukraine piece made in turkey. i just, i just don't have any evidence or i the answers. i don't know that i shouldn't speculate what i would i really agree. yeah, but i mean, having said that in the actual book when it comes to the ukraine, and i mentioned this because clearly us sanctions have ad well, the opposite effect. they've less than the economies of western europe. the global south is clearly ignoring nature, western europe and the united states views on uh on what happened in ukraine. but in your book, you pay 345. i think you say at

a meeting at the kennedy school in 2014 economist, eagle unions will inclusion was disillusioned by the west. well, how is the 2014 maiden qu, wasn't it when we had victoria newland, and the league phone call saying she was picking up who is going to run the run the country. i'm just surprised about how you couple of ukraine and this latest bully. you said. $34.00 space, 347, putting it agreed to receive virus thoughts named the minutes process. but it was not clear whether it would be worth much as we found in 2022. you know that that means the process is unanimously adopt as un security council resolution 2202. but it didn't prevent the russian storm and fading ukraine. and trying to essentially take over the country of people say this as a result of the americans expanding data or not to conciliate, improved adequately. it's important to read what read of broke about ukraine in

before he dated in 2021. he basically doesn't accept ukraine is legitimate, independent state, and he talks about rew skeet mirror the russian world. and ukraine is part of that and he will control it. and i, it's so in that sense, whatever the merits and the merits of a 2014 and the russian invitation to the don boss and quite a bit, then i think it had more roots in what was going on in keys in the efforts to the of of, of popular demonstration to get rid of a repressive a government, then it did who is with pressure, but pressure, i saw it is her head and inflated. and then the missile process suggested that there could be a point of stability. russia taking what it already had,

but in the february of $22.00 poor besides, he wanted more than he is dated. he said that i am going to just the drug there. that's not really the cases. if you have a picture of yourself with the medical, you have a picture with bank of america in the new book don't here and you know what i'm going to, michael said, yes. he said that the mints process was a delaying tactic. so nato could, um, ukraine, this is about nato expansion is a and i mean, on the food end point about the way to ukraine that's won't be debated as to whether that's approved in the crying these deals. you know, i think if you look back, you'll see that there was a pretty broad consensus in you, even they, to countries that ukraine was not about to be accepted into nato 2008. there was

a question of ukraine joining nato. i think that was the other european countries, like britain and france and others were not, would not have allowed that of. and i think the prove this invasion was a threat to a software country in the countries at the show called global south. or realize that the un charter, which protects countries against the kind of invasion that russia had you said in their interest made to see these simply as a european conflict is a great mistake. the canyon delegation to the united states got this right. quite soon afterwards. they said, this is a problem for all of us by population that general assembly resolution, because i didn't get them majority is that those who favored russia's view on these things. and it said, immediately afterwards,

there was sanctions on russian composes new york, ballet stores, russian literature in the western europe. you think they read your work on soft power and took it too far? would be with the bizarre, the process of banning all things russian in nato countries. well, i think the idea of going on with business as usual, with russia after russia violated what are the basic norms of the international system that you don't take your neighbors territory by force was an appropriate way of saying signaling that this behavior was unacceptable. i think if you'll look at the details, you'll see that some russian artist and composers and so forth who were willing to distance themselves from nyman check off ski and bush can and does

pre etzky no, no, i'm talking about temporaries that uh the so there were some artists to said we don't support that, they were a continued to be in the repertoire. but uh, i mean, you seem to be acting as though or asking questions, is a, is not guilty of a basic violation of a critical norm since 1945. and i think you just wrong professor joseph nile, stop you that more from the former dean of the hobbit kennedy school in all to the new book of life in the american century up to display the there's no end in sight over how you're going to continue to destroy the earth is the case of the med, most of the people. i tried to go to the gym, but i'm certainly not ready to fight russia. this is also of soon. this is the 3rd world lunacy re washing press for so the funder line likes to say we have the tools

while we just start with stability and business deal. so what should be living on not very good stuff again, you know, a price here in new york. i think we don't know the aftermath any time that you're not allowed to ask questions, you should ask all of the questions. the more questions ask the better the answer is will be the i has to guess. the president of this event sky himself, is basically delusional. and that he has become drunk with his own rhetoric as well as flats or visa to use to receives from the rest. i think this has read you to range to minutes a bit at a star test relationship to reality. struby about everyone around 2 icons. imagine the

welcome back to going on the right. now i'm still here with the professor joseph night, who medina, the harvard kennedy school and all through the new book. i like the new american century present. i, we, and about one talking about the norms established off to 1945. of course the russians would say, and i think they are being saying that the world go up. they were trying to protect russian speakers in the east and ukraine, but on the broad point. and even if pressure was in the wrong 2 wrongs wouldn't make a right. your book is full, your new book of uh, of, of, in the side lines. violations of those norm since 1945, only thing. i mean, clearly at all we was, i mean, you go all the way back to vietnam, but there's so many violations of any kind of know that any, uh, any, uh, no line country would recognize as being in the you and try to, wouldn't it right now the united states is backing the alleged genocide in guys, every news rental set and these and the acting in any norm establish on the

$9045.00 and is indeed in violation of cause there's so many resolutions as indeed there has been violations. but notice that in a book like mine, a life in the american century published in the united states, i am able to criticize american violations such as the invasion of iraq in russia. i couldn't do that. and uh, indeed, that being the cases of the fact that them, john lives in nato countries are not able to report and joins are allowed from west and media into russia. but you actually speaking about freedom, you speak, you know, mentioned julian, it's on, you mentioned edward snowden in your book, were you shocked by the revelations? did i give them a call? as i said, the picture of you and her in the new book that the national security operators in your country was bugging the chancellor of yours was powerful economy. well, i think that was a mistake and i think it's pretty wise you recognize now. but it has nothing to do

with my greeting. i can do a medical at a harvard commencement ceremony, but us surprised that that was going on. it was, yeah, i thought i thought the that the uh the people in the, in a say what does that had more sense than to do that? because it is surprising, given, you invented the terms of how you're credited with that. you know, mentioned julian, this on you, of course, there's a case coming up at the end of february now and he, he exposed so many details of as you would put it, violations of any notice instead of being 45 and, and all that information is there on the internet for the whole global. so to watch it has huge soft power, like the famous video of the john was being gone down to iraq as well. i means i don't mention julian massage there. many others don't mention on both sides. many

issues of the editor took out a lot of material from the book and wanted to keep it short. so i did the hope to the question to julian and saw it being in the index. it's kind of irrelevant. i only just man, mention it because you mentioned freedom and the freedom to expose more crimes. and in the, in this case, a salting bud said the other day that the little money wasn't given just the lensky view. nato couldn't deter china. well, what do you think he meant by that? especially in the light of the work you've done, which doesn't seem to show any desire by china. and you met many of our officials over decades to invade west virginia who are well, it is a shooting pain. has said that he would like the people's liberation army to be able to re capture type one, which they,

regardless renegade province by 2027. and many people who feared that china would indeed try to use force to a unified tie one with china. and after the, a failure of who is invasion in ukraine, many people in china and able to reach you at the station region said this shows that the type of vision that people are feeling on taiwan would be too risky, too expensive if putting sale with the land based evasion are certainly right next door. the trying to go a 100 miles over the sea with a sea based invasion is of much higher risk stand if children ping cares. but more than anything else about his control with comedy,

his party and the company as barbara rhys control of china. a failed invasion of taiwan. this is the biggest risk you could take face. so i think that's the type of thinking that's i don't know what store overhead and mind, but that's the kind of thinking people say that the, what happens with your grade also has an effect on what risks are taking in east asia. i want to go back to china, but you mentioned failure. roster communities of hasn't failed. it has killed loads of nazis and so on. and i mean, this is the financial times this week. i am after double as russians growth of lucas ukraine was, stimulates economy. i'll put in russia to rise, impact of western sanctions and out banks post ridgewood prophets. so from russia's perspective, they've strengthened the brick since china. i cooperation, organization of strength and ties with china in the global south countries. and

their economy is booming, while western europe's is declining. how is russia losing? well, i think if, if you look at the sanctions, they have a, a different effect on different periods and turn time the mediator affective sections after the evasion or a drop in the value of russian stocks and also the rubel and so forth. and then you have the sanctions have the effective what you might call into the industry turf. they lead to production at home of the goods that are deprived from abroad. and a ground rush have benefited from that in the which when i called the medium term, as well as the tech support. so boil, which remains in demand. and then a question for russia and for others is what happens over the long run in the is were media gun. it's true that the russia has had certain benefits,

strongly intern industry terrace effects the long run their to private and themselves from sources of technology in europe, which are going to be essential for their accomplishing what they need to do, which was joined the 4th industrial revolution if you look at question, today is 2 thirds of its exports are in oil and gas. and it is not made the kinds of kind of nations that are needed to really join the information revolution. question, i think the russians have to ask themselves is if they stay isolated from europe and america, are they going to have a, it is good to technological future. you can say, well, they'll get that from china. but then they're in the past that becoming a, uh, like a satellite of china. my understanding is, yeah,

the scholarly papers are now being published increasingly and in bricks, countries over western europe. and as i said, west and your economically seems the why the seem to be in, in decline. you do say in the book that it was wrong of uh, a bama to put a red line on chemical weapons in syria. but now we have so much more information about whether i side actually use chemical weapons. why in your book, are you saying? absolutely, he did use chemical weapons when that accounts as being the debunked by so many including the o p c, w whistle, the weapon section in the air. it's not at the booking, but there's evidence that the sod did indeed use chemical weapons. so i don't know what you're talking about. so you have never heard any of the evidence. i mean there, the so much being written that this moment and you say definitely the biggest problem

was syria way about your as it is, use chemical weapons when, when that that's a lot to think the pockets the you can find a lot of arguments on the internet about anything but to the preponderance of evidence from reliable sources is that a side did the 2 weeks of chemical weapons. and if you don't believe that, what's the matter with the sources of information you're getting? yeah, i look at all, all the different sources and not just sources that are, say, nature of nation publications. you say the presidential briefing that's given to joe biden, every day. you talk about how a lot of it could just be in the, in the mainstream, in the new york times, or something that is given to the president and how important uh, information uh, is in the public realm. and there's not that much extra in the entail. you suggest

in the book, as well as do to give you an example of what's called open source and intelligence, meaning what's in the press, what's on the internet so forth. i is very important part of what should be in that briefing, not just secrets. and in an information age open source is becoming more and more important. and in that open source intelligence as well and see good intelligence. there's evidence by the international chemical weapons association, which of unit that comes under the united nations. the other side used chemical weapons. yeah, actually i met the o b c, w whistle, but it has come fluid since then. but what about the dangers of a feedback loop? then if things are being leaks to gen, listen, so cool, mainstream newspapers then that's being fed back to president bible. there's just a feedback loop being created that doesn't allow other pieces of information to

come in like say, a zalinski has no hope of this counter offensive, or i said we'll stay in power despite the american bombing of damascus. well, good intelligence presents alternatives and the alternatives can to the present it . the alternate names should centrally as what's in the open source, what's in the secret sources, and have you weighed them in terms of the profit abilities of the alternative explanations and scenarios in that sites. the open source helps you with beating the, the mainstream press. how to check against some of the things that are in your secret sources. but not if uh, if i know you quote the chomsky in your 2015 book. if uh, if the drums get an idea about manufacturing consent holds true just before.

finally, if trump gets in, which he looks at to get in, whether it's from jail or whatever, he's suddenly writing, i'm. yep, and the american people want them to be president according to opinion, both of you expect them to and they to and what does that mean for the united states as well? first, i think it's not at all clear to trump is going to get in the polls that one sees at this time are to some extent, not a good indication of the outcomes november. most people don't really pay attention to elections until after labor day, which is in september. so i don't, i don't think that some of these early polls are accurate in terms of assessing whether trump or by when, and in the november it's. i don't think the trump is going to come back, but if i'm wrong and trump does come back, i think it will have a negative effect on american alliances and american sauce power in like manner

include, we can you give nate to bassinet has passed a resolution saying that child for any president cannot withdraw from data without consent of the senate, but he could simply refuse to uh to spend money, which was it is within his progress with that of course would have a severe damage for us. and i thank you. thank you, and that's it for the show. a continued condolences to those surviving the killing and gaza. the new book, a life in the american century, is that now will be back on monday, with a former leading contender to be president of ecuador, now supporting his reyland, sending weapons to zaleski and ukraine, after betraying julian hassan. just political asylum until then. keep in touch viral social media, if it's on sense of your country and to our channel going on the go into the normal don't come to watching you and old episodes of going on the going to month, the

the yeah, just seeing the results right. there is 34 people are killed as us as drives rain down on targets across the syria and iraq. the you says the situation in the middle east is as a tipping point. meet the lease is a boy and i think can explode if i can see the effect. any dog, effective as of right see is a domino, a domino effect and russia slums, that us astride from syria and iraq sec, washington.