the right back again on top of the ok. so you see the the, [000:00:00;00] the i'm action or time, so you're welcome back to going under ground broadcasting all around the world from the u. a. e. so has circled genocide, joe launched explicit war and energy supervisory. run this up, the guys are resistance, forces killed ok. back. american troops accused evading isis in the middle east,

and one of the usa is reputation. it's so called soft power. now that the usa backs plausible genocide the to him, the world quote uses the u. k. u s. and you nation on back mass killing of tens of thousands of palestinians, mostly women and children and gaza. cost already clinton official provides a joseph knife when the dean of the harvard kennedy school is credited with inventing the time. soft power is they just look at life in the american century is like a who's who of level security powers who charts his rise to become charity usa is national security council. the assistant secretary at the pentagon. he joins me now from cambridge, massachusetts. thank you. so much for of us and i for coming on before we get to the book, i suppose i better off give a briefly about who you think would win a war with the wrong given that to the debate right around the world. that obviously, especially here in the middle east or well, it depends what one means by winning a war. and i think you'd find broad losses on both sides,

but american power versus a rating and power. and the simple term, it's not a question, but who will pay what cost is a more difficult puzzle to figure out. and people are suddenly looking to the, by the administration to understand that costs clearly you uh, you helped expand the harvard kennedy school. clearly from this book you show how you worked on that, but is an i have to say some of the donors are associated with a back end. israel, israel soft power gone. now these pictures are beaming all around the world, let alone the us as of power given to the entire international community is watching as the nature of powers back an arm to the teeth, the. this alleged genocide. well, i wouldn't say it's gone uh, but it has been dented or damaged. oh, i think one of the dangers is it was defense. secretary

lloyd austin, put it. you can win a battle and lose a war. and now there's in terms of tactical successes of these release of demonstrating that they have a good deal of capability. but in terms of a soft r and the ability to attract others, i think the disproportionate number of casualties of gaza has indeed damaged their soft power and washington's soft power. in recent years let alone garza as well as if it did again. i, i think the american sauce power has been damaged by the disproportionate, the killing of civilians and the gods of war. uh, biden is pleaded for the israelis to take a more measured approach. but it,

there still damage to americans. sauce power. on the other hand, if you look at the american soft power over the years, it goes up and down. mean sauce. power is the ability to get what you want through attraction, rose and coercion or payment. and there are times in the past where americans, soft power has been very badly damaged. for example, in the 19 sixty's, there were protests around the world against the vietnam war, but by the 1980 is the american position where they had recovered. similarly, i think you see americans soft power damaged uh after the rock and taishan. uh, but then when obama selected it recovers its damaged again by trump. recovers some what would buy and uh, so the, the in this can be ascertained by the,

on the public opinion polls the public trust trump is the jumps leading in those opinion polls right now. looks like no, no i, i, yeah, no i, that's a question or will it be come back and if he does, that would have a severe negative effect on american soft power. but i meant if you, if you look at public opinion, polls it a company like pew has done asking people, i hate 27 different countries, whether they found america or china more attractive. basically the americans come out ahead. i think good a is 25 of the 2070 countries so there can soft power goes up and down. it could be dented. on the other hand, in comparative terms, is still relatively strong. yeah, paradoxically, that same view. paul also said the united states was a big threat. they so the us as a threat of i understand, i mean,

you wrote in 2015 that but global futures is the american century over and you were quite sanguine. you were looking at the idea that actually you look at history and you see people for how to print maturely, predict the end of american. uh oh, sorry, any impact whether it be british or any, any of you don't think you're gonna have to revise that off to ukraine. not after you create. i think i revise the different trump is the lift gate in november. i think he will do so here, damage to the american power for the members. it a lot of a countries sauce, power to attractiveness comes from it. civil society, not just from us government. the government does broadcasting and has policies, and those can affect did subtract witness. but um, if a country has a vibrant civil society better tracts, others,

it's better able to recover. i think back to give me the hard hollywood in science of ours, hollywood in the science, but also things like the civil rights movement in, in the 60s. the people were marching in the streets around the world to protest american government policy in see it. but they weren't sending the communist internation. now they were seeing a martin luther king's, we shall ever. com, which is an anthem from the american civil society. so i think in the, in that sense of asking is there resilience and terms of ability recover? i think there's still a good deal resilience in american civil society. maybe because vietnam speech wasn't broke as why these guy ever dream is to be true. no, no is go back to this new book. you knew stanley johnson, he was a regular on this program at oxford. and you say in the book you had shocked his

son became prime minister. what do you make of evidence that suggests he was sent to destroy a negotiated ukraine piece made in turkey. i just, i just don't have any evidence or i the answers. i don't know that i shouldn't speculate what i would i really agree. yeah, but i mean, having said that in the actual book when it comes to ukraine, and i mentioned this because clearly us sanctions have ad. well, they have the opposite effect. they've the west and the economies of western europe . the global south is a clearly ignoring nature, western europe and the united states views on uh, on what happened in ukraine. but in your book, you pay 345. i think you say i had a meeting at the kennedy school in 2014 economist eagle. you against the wall inclusion was disillusioned by the west. well, how is the 2014 may then qu wasn't it when we had victoria newland,

and the league phone call saying she was picking up who is gonna run the run the country. i'm just surprised about how you company, ukraine, in this latest bully. you said 34 spacing, 47 puts you in that agreed to receive virus thoughts named the minutes process. but it was not clear whether it would be worth much. as we found in 2022, you know that that means the process is unanimously adopt as un security council resolution 2202. but it didn't prevent the russian storm and fading ukraine. and trying to essentially take over the country of people say this as a result of the americans expanding data or not to conciliate, improved adequately. it's important to read what read of broke about ukraine in before he dated in 2021. he basically doesn't accept to crane is legitimate, independent state,

and he talks about ru skeet mirror the russian world. and ukraine is a part of that and he will control it by it. so in that sense, whatever the merits and the merits of a 2014 and the russian invitation to the don boss and quite a bit, then i think it had more roots in what was going on in keys in the efforts to the of, of a popular demonstration to get rid of a repressive a government, then it did who is with pressure blood pressure. so it is a threat and inflated. and then the mr process suggested that there could be a point of stability. russia taking what it already had. but in the february of 22, who decided he wanted more,

that evaded the and that's i am going to just the drew up there. that's not really the case is if you have a picture of yourself with the i can give them a call. you have a picture with bank of america in the new book don't here. and you know what i'm going to, michael said, yes. he said that the minutes process was delaying tactics. so nato could, um, ukraine, this is about nato expansion is a and i mean, on the food end point about the way to ukraine that's won't be debated as to whether that's approved in the crying these deals. you know, i think if you look back, you'll see that there was a pretty broad consensus in you haven. they to countries that ukraine was not about to be accepted into nato 2008. there was a question of ukraine joining nato. i think that was the other european countries, like britain and france and others were not,

would not have allowed that of. and i think the prove this invasion was a threat to a software country. the countries at the show called global south, or realize that the un charter, which protects countries against the kind of invasion that russia had you see their interest made to see this simply is a european conflict, is a great mistake. the canyon delegation to the united states got this right. quite soon afterwards. they said, this is a problem for all of us by population, that general assembly resolution, of course, and didn't get the majority is that those who favored russians view on these things . and it said immediately afterwards, there was sanctions on russian composes in new york valley stores, russian literature in the western europe. you think they read your work on soft

power and took a do far with the, with the bizarre, a process of banning all things russian in nato countries. well, i think the idea of going on with business, as usual with russia after russia violate what are the basic norms of the international system that you don't take your neighbors territory by force was an appropriate way of st. signaling that this behavior was unacceptable. i think if you'll look at the details, you'll see that some russian artist and composers and so forth who were willing to distance themselves from. and i'm and check off ski and push, getting those to be ascii when i'm talking about temporaries that uh, so there were some artists to said we don't support that. they were

a continued to be in the repertoire. but uh, i mean, you seem to be acting as so or asking questions is so is not guilty of a basic violation of a critical norm since 1945. and i think you're just role professor joseph nile. stop you that more from the form of dean of the hobbit kennedy school in all, to the new book of life in the american century, up to this by the 6 awful lot go that you got to get better, you can go to the hospital. yes. what you need to do to help you, he said, well, i mean what, what you need to lock up. the people that are drug addicts,

just keep going. cold. turkey is like going through withdrawals, and a lot of these 12 schools, the withdrawal giving them money were killed. so you just gotta give them the valley alone covered. right. no one goes, no one. not very good, but truly getting worse and worse every year. it has to be done the welcome back to going on the right, and i'm still here with professor joseph nice. who medina? the harvard kennedy school and what are the new book? i like the new american century present. i, we ended pop one, talking about the norms established off to 1945. of course the russians would say,

and i think they are, i've been saying and the world going that they were trying to protect russian speakers in the east and ukraine. but on the broad a point, and even if pressure was in the wrong 2 wrongs wouldn't make a right. your book is full, your new book of uh, of, of, in the side lines, violations of those norm. since 1945, only thing. i mean, clearly at all we was, i mean, you go all the way back to vietnam, but the so many violations of any kind of known that any, uh, any, uh, not a line country would recognize as being in the you in charge. you would need right now the united states is backing uh, the electric genocide in gaza or in israel set. and these and the acting in any norm establish off the 9045 and is indeed in violation of course have so many resolutions as indeed there has been violations. but notice that in

a book like mine, a life in the american century published in the united states, i am able to criticize american violations such as the invasion of iraq in russia. i couldn't do that. and uh, indeed, that being the cases of the fact that the journalists in nato countries are not able to report and joins are allowed from west and median in to russia. but you actually speaking about freedom, you speak, you know, mentioned julian, it's on, you mentioned edward snowden in your book, were you shocked by the revelations that i give them a call? as i said, the picture of you and her in the new book that the national security operators in your country was bugging the chancellor of yours was powerful economy. well, i think that was a mistake, and i think it's pretty widely recognized now. but it has nothing to do with my reading and doing merkel at a harvard commencement ceremony. but us surprised that that was going on. it was.

yeah, i thought i thought the that the, uh, the people in the, in a say, what does it had more sense than to do that? because it is surprising, given, you invented the terms of how you're credited with that. you know, mentioned julian, this on you, of course, there's a case coming up at the end of february now and he, he exposed so many details of as you would put it, violations of any norm since 1945 and, and all that information is there on the internet for the whole global south to watch. it has huge soft power, like the famous video of the john was being gunned down the rock as well. i means i don't mention julian massage there. many others don't mention on both sides. many issues of the editor took out a lot of material from the book and wanted to keep it short. so i did the hope to

the question to julian and saw it being in the index. it's kind of irrelevant. i only just man mention it because you mentioned freedom and the freedom to expose more crimes and in the, in this case a salt them, but said the other day that they have little money wasn't given just the lensky view. nato couldn't deter china. well, what do you think he meant by that? especially in the light of the work you've done, which doesn't seem to show any desire by china. and you've met many of our officials over decades to invade west and to you who are well it, it, a, she gene pain has said that he liked the people's liberation army to be able to re capture type one, which they, regardless renegade province by 2027, and many people who feared that china would indeed try to use force to

a unified taiwan with china. and after the failure of this invasion in ukraine, many people in china into the reach of the station regions, stead. this shows that the type of vision that people are feeling on taiwan would be too risky to experience it. it proved and failed with the land based evasion up are certainly right. thank store. this trying to go a 100 miles over the sea with a sea based invasion is of much higher risk and of changing ping carriers. but more than anything else about his control with the communist party and the company. it's barbara rhys control of china. a failed invasion of taiwan. this is the biggest risk you could take face. so i think that's the type of thinking that's i don't

know what store overhead and mind, but that's the kind of thinking people say that the, what happens with your grade also has an effect on what risks are taking in east asia. i want to go back to china, but you mentioned failure rusher categories of hasn't failed. it has killed loads of nazis and so on. and i mean, this is the financial times this week. i am after doubles, rush, his growth up, look, as ukraine was, stimulates economy output in russia to rise, impact of western sanctions, and banks, post ridgewood prophets. so from russia's perspective, they've strengthened the brick since china i cooperation, organization of strength and ties with china in the global south countries. and their economies booming west in europe's is declining. how is russia losing? well, i think if, if you look at the sanctions, they have a, a, a,

a different effect on different periods and turn time the mediator affective sections after the evasion or a drop in the value of russian stocks, you know, for the ruble and so forth. and then you have the sanctions have the effective what you might call into the industry turf. they lead to production at home of the goods that are deprived from abroad. and i ground rush have benefited from that in the which, when i called the medium term as well as so did tech support. so for oil, which remains in demand. and then a question for russia and for others is what happens over the long run in the used for media on it. it's true that russia has had certain benefits strongly into an industry terrace, affects the long run their, the private and themselves from sources of technology in europe,

which are going to be essential for their accomplishing what they need to do, which was joined the 4th industrial revolution if you look at question, today's 2 thirds of its exports are in oil and gas, and it is not made the kinds of innovations that are needed to really join the information revolution. question, i think the russians have to ask themselves is if they stay isolated from europe and america, are they going to have a, it is good to technological future. you can say, well, they'll get that from china. but then they're in the past that becoming a, uh, like a satellite of china. so my understanding is, yeah, the scholarly papers are now being published increasingly in, in bricks, countries over western europe. and as i said, west and you're economically seems the why do you seem to be in,

in decline? you do say in the book that it was wrong of uh, a bama to put a red line on chemical weapons in syria. but now we have so much more information about whether a side actually used chemical weapons. why in your book, are you saying? absolutely, he did use chemical weapons when that account has been debunked by so many including the o, b c, w whistle. but the section in the air is not at the bucking, but there's evidence that the site did indeed use chemical weapons. so i don't know what you're talking about. so you haven't heard any of the evidence. i mean there is so much being written at this moment and you say definitely the biggest problem was syria. way about your as it is used chemical weapons when, when that that's a lot to think the rich the, you can find

a lot of arguments on the internet about anything but to the preponderance of evidence from reliable sources is that i saw i did the jewish chemical weapons, and if you don't believe that, what's the matter with the sources of information you're getting? so yeah, i look at all, all the different sources and not just sources that are, say, nature of nation publications. you say the presidential briefing that's given to joe biden, every day you talk about how a lot of it could just be in the, in the mainstream, in the new york times, or something that's given to the president. and how important uh, information is in the public realm, and there's not that much extra in the in tell you suggest in the book. well, to give you an example of what's called open source and intelligence, meaning what's in the press, what's on the internet. so for i is very important part of what should be in that

briefing, not just secrets. and in an information age open source is becoming more, more important. and in that open source intelligence as well and see good intelligence . there's evidence by the international chemical weapons association, which of unit that comes under the united nations that are assigned to use chemical weapons. yeah, actually i met the o p c w whistle, but it has come fluid since then. but what about the dangers of a feedback loop then? if things are being leaks to john, listen, so go mainstream newspapers then that's being fed back to president bible. there's just a feedback loop being created. that doesn't allow other pieces of information to come in, like say, a zalinski has no hope of this counter offensive,

or how side will stay in power despite the american bombing of damascus. well, good intelligence presents alternatives, and the alternatives can do the present. it. the alternate names should essentially ask what's in the open source, what's in the secret sources, and how do you weigh them in terms of the profit abilities of the alternative explanations and scenarios in, in that sites the open source helps you with beating the, the mainstream press how to check against some of the things that are in your secret sources. but knowing if uh, if i know you quote uh chomsky in your 2015 book, if uh if the drums get an idea about manufacturing consent holds true just before finally. if trump, but it gets in which he looks at to get in, whether it's from jail or whatever, he suddenly writing, i'm the, and the american people want them to be president according to opinion. both of you

expect them to and they to and what does that mean for the united states as well? first i think it's not at all. clearly, trump is going to get in the polls that one sees at this time are to some extent, not a good indication of the outcomes november. most people don't really pay attention to elections until after labor day, which is in september. so i don't, i don't think that some of these early polls are accurate in terms of assessing whether trump or but when in, in november it's i don't think the trump is going to come back. but if i'm wrong and trump does come back, i think it will have a negative effect on american alliances and american sauce power in like manner include, we can, you need to bassinet has passed a resolution saying that count for any president cannot withdraw from data

without consent of the senate, but he could simply refuse to, to spend money. which was it is within his progress with that of course would have a severe damage specimen. i thank you. thank you. and that's it for the show of continued condolences to those surviving beginning in gaza. the new book, a life in the american century, is that now will be back on monday, with a former leading contender to be president of ecuador, now supporting his reyland, sending weapons to the laskey in ukraine, after betraying julius on his political asylum until then, keep in touch viral social media, if it's on the 10th of your country and i do i channel going underground t v. i normally don't come to watch new and old episodes of going underground 2 months. the,

[000:00:00;00] the moscow accuse is the west of sponsoring a trade in terrorist attack on the bakery and list. a chance of the strike is taking the lives of at least 20 civilians and wounded 10 others. thousands more remain shopped under the rumble of the us as he has carried out the water. cold self defense strikes on fixed b and to ship cruise mess all the washington. as such that the rockets prevented an immune and threatened to american interest in the region. the valley seems to be really cold them,