treated differently than they were trying to forget. they were walking the streets were better at battle flags. so they turned their faces. they travelled town to town with their red t shirt so he can walk you through the streets to get somebody to videotape it. and, and just create disability for their room to other countries build walls to keep out the, the flooded illegals pointing to their countries. well, joe biden, a doors this year, but it focuses on other countries and other conflicts that and kind of ignoring the american people. i think as it gets more attention, you'll see others step up and condemned. this is not the, it's ironic that apparently um the, the death of the, the prisoner in the inside the area has drawn so much condemnation from, from those on the left without recognizing the barely she had ties to nazi as of so it's, it's kind of a weird juxtaposition of people condemning this, but uh yeah, the volume e is uh, is also tied to naziism and people are pointing that out. well, thanks very much for joining us. that was your round up. don't forget though,

that you can head over to our team. don't com for more on all of these stories in treating in depth analysis the, [000:00:00;00] the mouse sooner than say, welcome back to going underground, broadcasting all around the world, from the middle east. today, the so called world call to get input to us you, u. k. on israel, on trial for another genocide like case, tens of thousands, mostly women and children have been killed by nature weapons in gaza,

while russia and china repeatedly voted the un security council for cease 5. egypt is now wary of his riley ethnic cleansing, of more than a 1000000 palestinians at the rough crossing. it's opposed in public, even by joe biden. and these western european proxies whose bottoms have now attacked. iraq, syria, m, and 11 and, and palestine. professor at the time was given the lifetime achievement award by the british academy, author of the new book, 3 wills, memoirs of an arab. julie's emeritus professor of international relations at oxford university consider one of israel's new historians. he joins me now from oaks with thank you so much for visitors trying for coming on the show. so. well, i used to be with you. you said that the industrial scale small as a may have taken israel to the verge of committing genocide. why the verge on what evidence yourself? i've seen in recent days. well, this was, i made this comment by some time ago when there was some doubt. but today,

i have not hesitate action in saying that what user id is doing does all amounts to genocide. genocide is defined by the prevention of genocide. convention is the attempt intentional, attempt to destroy info oh you thought initially group. and this is precisely what israel is doing and for some time use really has been cause viewing estimate tenzing on the west bank. and now they want to to the ethnic tendency of guys as well. and the forcible displacement of civilians is a whole crime. so they can be in and out about the fact that these are of his being

completing all crimes by telling civilians to against the will and the one to 2300000 people in a gun. so israel is already forced 1 of them to move south north ones, but 1st the 0 to the civilians can move from south to the center then from the center to the south, then further and further south and miles out. most of the civilians about a 1000000 and the cop are concentrated in rough up on the border full of egypt. and so that's the kind of thing is beyond dispute. um, the general side, some people may dispute, but the lady is riley x. the holocaust study has said that this is the smoke k textbook case of general song. you don't have to listen to the expense or to me. nope. it's a really funny,

international court of justice which said that south africa has made a plausible case of genocide. yeah. i want to get on the return to is rarely the 2nd, but then if it is, then obviously the last all the goal is to is involving germany, co conspirator cases. then, i mean, no one is acting as of the genocide convention mandates. does that mean an open the way for britain, so knack and, and biting in the united states and as live on the land as co conspirators given bay of pouring the weaponry without which the genocide could not take place. i believe that a breach in and other european countries while supplying is rather with weapons complicit in these rules for crimes. as for america,

i would like to go further and say that the america is not just complete and these are annual crimes. they mean genocide, but the very k is the enabler of these wally journalists find. and i say these for 2 reasons. one is that the international community um the while ago wanted to order the complete a comprehensive ceasefire. and there was a resolution to that effect in the security council. so if you members voted for the resolution, beecham, abstain. and the united states use the veto. and um, and um, uh the, to this resolution. so we could just have a ceasefire. but for america, who prevented the cease file and secondly, the america continues to supply with friends and relations to israel

in america, who would threaten to withhold with them, send munitions and these are old, have no choice, but to stop the fighting. so the very top is doubly guilty of dissipation, active participation in the israeli genocide in um, um gaza is probably for least reason that joe biden is on himself and unique day, which is a genocide. jo. well, as you know, they are quite open about the fact in the united states and stilton bug of nature, that this will improve the job situation in the, in the united states, increasingly scarred by disparities of power and wealth. actually comparisons between the nazi war economy and the massive pumping of billions of tax dollars

into the united states economy in terms of manufacturing artillery shells with which to mass murder, children in the middle east. that it's best not to make any comparisons between nazi germany and he's rail. it's best to look if he is or us ret code in america's record. it's bad enough. so we don't need to draw any comparisons. and we don't need to exaggerate the scale of these really destruction income age in the guys a split street is for the american or economy. it's always being the case that the weapons manufacturer is located in the south of the united states and republican areas. love israel because america, i do see a stroke $3800000000.00 a, a, a milli. create

a here. so this means the american tax, this money goes to use, wrote as a grow, then comes back as a profit to the american military industrial complex. that's number one, number 2, because the cell is with the state of the art equipment from the other states. one can we address the balance of cash out to some extent, and therefore, buying american weapons. so if somebody makes a profit off the floor and it's the warlords, they, it's the military industrial complex in america, which is always supported, was everywhere. for this reason, they supported the war enough, danny stein, and they supported the invasion or from you out in 2003, iraq where of course you a bowl. and the reason i mention the nazis is because genocide that the world code

is so ready to learn to all of the, not the experience of, of course, i mean we're lender of was one the prior occasion. but of, of course it's the cause that costs the shadow. when one starts talking about genocide, it's 81 years since the was we'll get to uprising. a 10th of those who are being killed in gaza were killed. of course, the use of the word resistance in the, in the way media talks about it in britain where you live. how do you see the debates about what is justified is resistance for some reason your, your prime minister, so neck a continues to say is realize the rights of self defense, which because it doesn't given it's an occupying power. do you think they understand the historical perils? i promised the did not see comparison question. do they understand the historical barrels with the war?

so we'll get to uprising that they must but will be the not i've just said the title is. but now do they understand the international, which is quite a deal on the subject bus so much install repeat pirates like what by doing says they never move really made to from the american position. and they keep repeating. the israel has the right to defend it. so that he doesn't because i'm to international. ready you'll have the right to defend your so if you are attacked by the state, but from us, it's not a state. secondly, um, if the attack comes from an area that you occupied, then you don't have the right to a self defense. to put it simply,

you don't have the right to self defense against the people that your chris more of a. it's a mouse. if the palestinian is you can go so who have the right to resist of the occupation including the resistance. so international law is quite clear that p 0 doesn't have the right to self defense. in this case, what's the state of freedom in your country? because you're an m and into scholar, adults whose university i've talked to other oaks and professors on this program actually who and talk about the scale of debate events and help them listed in in britain. what is your understanding of the freedom of speech in britain and in western europe given? you mentioned storm a globally, people that know who he is, but he is the person who is promoted by jeremy colbin. the then leader of the opposition labor policy and who says the things,

things like what you've been telling me in this interview are mc. somebody take you through his mounted a global campaign o. d, legitimize the supporters of b, b. s. boy, quote divestment sanctions, which is the global breast foot. don't pay to end the occupation. and this is a non violent double civil society campaign. it's non violent. i stress that all the main, the minds of the this in trying you mean to national the right of free to, of the 1948 refugees, the right of the senior citizens of the state of israel to uh, uh, a quote to equality that and um and then, and a few patients, so most importantly,

the box, all these i am showing, do you mean connection a little? but he's real and it's many friends around the world of conduct a conduct a campaign against critics of israel and the with them eyes and the somebody please them and embraced them. 3 of the government has adopted the international total cost. memorial association definition off and to send me it isn't, and it's a non designation, it's completely vacuous. and the definition itself is useless. it doesn't define anything but then to a series of 11 examples or make a list of what made a cost acute down to 72711 examples relate to e's real. became of this definition is not to protect you is a game. so i have to send me to them,

but protect israel against legitimate criticisms of the occupation. so after so many people as being way per night in your, in germany, in america ending the united kingdom and the government in this country. there's some down on pro palestinian products professor ivy? sure i'm, i'll stop you best or from the author of 3 worlds. memoirs of an arab do after this break the, the, the the welcome back to going on the right. and i'm still here with the marriage is professor international relations at oxford university, professor ivy shribel 3 of 3 wills ma'am was have an hour to present time. we said in about one we were talking about this

a conflation of anti semitism and design isn't it affects clearly those countries that express solidarity with the palestinians suffering your birthplace. baghdad was born in the past few days, weeks by british and american. the bomb is a, syria or of course as being bottom gm, and as being bombs. it's even more serious for countries that express solidarity. then for scholars there, i say, any examples that you personally have had that you witness a lack of freedom and you're not being able to speak on these issues. or are you given free reign in the british media to tell us about your views as regards what we're witnessing as regards of the gaza jealous? like, i mean, i have been the professor international relations have talked to for the last

36 years and no um it's my university as a try to restrict my freedom of expression and i still enjoy. ready is i've always enjoyed complete freedom to express my opinions as i am doing to you in this interview now. but the general picture in the country is not so sign of we know the general picture is that the british government is extremely repressive and it keeps bossing legislation in order to restrict freedom of expression on israel and on the palestinian issue. and the government keeps giving the police powers to come down on pro palestinian voters. the government there was a major, major pro post you know, protest in london

a few weeks ago. and i went with my wife and my daughter. they were something like 800000 demonstrators. i do see, i mean hey, so if you move all those, those are very good spirited off for our friend displayed, or solely diety with the palestinians, both of them on 6th street. so brother, mom said the piece was, i picked them out and she wanted the police stuff them out. the police to the credit refused to. so we have an extremely repressive government, which is in a me a civil rights and which is a blind support, or if he's with dr. young quickly to support a fee as well. and that is a situation here today i have and i cannot complain that mice freedom, it has been restricted, but i've also had one encounter which is kind of super seem to my take off the

going in toner is off both supporters of palestine in this country i was invited to give a lecture about a leave of portal. hope you any of us to be on the subject of my moss. and the title was design is and the jews of the rock, personal perspective, a bit to your school and narrow topic. and yet, jews even leave a poor complaint to the university authorities that this would be on the safe. and it raised my top would raise appropriateness of safety. and the university didn't ask me to kind of so the lecture, but they asked me to postpone it. and i find right away, i said the case, i wouldn't come now and i was never time to go into the city because this is not

an issue of safety. it's an issue of economic freedom. so academic freedom in britain is being eroded all the time for critics of israel info supporters or from palestinian right. and the best example i can give you of these trends in britain is the decline and fall off. jeremy colby, the previous um, um leader of the labor party who was framed who was accused of warranty certainly isn't. what was an empty racist i'm paying all these life into the opposing anti semitism. there wasn't any evidence against absolutely anything he's actually been. he's been on this program and argument of he started firing people that were close to him on those fake drummed up, but i had these images and charges it has to be said on israel. again, one of the arguable founding minutes was that it was a safe place for jews. so do you think actually,

given israel is now giving me the most dangerous plays in the world for jews? do you think that we on the some c mites are really nothing yahoo and those who enable his government in the they conflate, being jewish with being is riley. or i do think that and which i'm, you know, who is a very good example of this combination because many of his friends and cassim white's like greek to open in hungry like the previous government. even poland, the previous government in brazil, these were anti semites. but the pro israel and therefore let them yeah, who doesn't care about anyone, please anti semitic as long as the pro is riley. and this reminds me of something

that i feel to have it. so the vision of yesterday joyce state road t, my e news diarrhea at the end of the 19th century. he said the mtc mites will become of the strongest supporters. and we're seeing this phenomenon today at the israel that got mixed up with very nasty company. and this is a slightly different point used real supplies because um inside of the, um, equipment and um, stopping equipment on those 2 long range of countries on the world, including including some of the most repressive regimes. so these are plays a global role. you're supplying weapons, and spyware, too, so large range of from,

especially some trees you write about your background in baghdad, in your latest book, what does it make you feel? knowing your government in britain is bombing iraq. again, i am absolutely horrified by british policy towards these rarely palestinian country. and this is just one example of the contemporary example. but it's a whole swedish policy towards the israeli. palestinian conflict is. this is computer also is computer rubbish. it doesn't make any sense because peter says that the 2 penalties should negotiate directly the resolution of the conflict between them. that the home being any peace stokes for 10 years, israel,

the president, dublin refuses to have any peace stokes, with the palestinians, and to say the 2 parties should get together to resolve their own differences is like putting a lion in, arrive between the cage and telling them to sort out the differences, the 2 state solution. you have changed your level now and recognize that actually only a one state solution is possible. what do you feel and people completely ignore the idea of a one state solution and continue to as joe biden does as a nature of nation leaders continue to do what is wrong with them going on and on about his 2 state solution. as i used to support the 2 state solution, which would have given the mission of justice to the palestinians. and since 1967, this being the broadest possible international consensus between the 2

states behind the idea of a 2 state solution. and it says, become fashionable to say that the deuce said solution is dead. it is indeed dead because these ro, community, israel, to date, by building supplements and expand the supplements on the waste time. and by amec, see east jerusalem. and by building the circle separation will, on the west bank, the separation war is closed behind the apartheid war. so use royal or eliminated the possibly the p o for example, palestine estate, all the to the left to the products. the meals on the west side is inc, a surrounded by use regularly settlements and military bases.

so i say, my starting point, now you said this to state solution is dead, and these are all his kilby. i'll get further and say the 2 state solution was never bone. it was never born because nobody's really done. when since 1967 is a offered a palestinian state on time, such would be acceptable to the most moderate understanding and liter. the 1st of all, and secondly, no american government is a push this through into a to a state of solution. so this is just a convenient phrase for people like buying them. some of them delayed and they keep the balance at 2 state solution. but the reality is that you come to have a 2 state solution and that's why i have change my views. and now i support the only the what? caustic solution to this conflict,

which is one state from the jordan river to do me to a n c with equal rights e, fluoride, for all the citizens, regardless of nationality, office needs to be all religion. yeah, i think the only way i think you are a police force is over there. don't seem to realize that the, from the river to the sea means for jews, christians and wisdom is just finally you mentioned the apartheid will. nelson mandela strategy was of course violence, and the great mount you bridge on the peaceful, much great bunch of bridge on, resulted in tens of thousands killed by u. s. u k. u. um the weapons at that border apartheid will. what, what would you do if you were a palestinian teenager right now in gaza? uh, would you, uh, would you go with mandela? would you go with guntee? that's what i would do. we've monday la. um and i would put my trust, you know,

civil society because i have no confidence that the western governments would change the position on israel. but there is a gap. there is a disconnect between wisdom, governments and the publics. the publics are increasingly pro palestinian, the demonstrations throwing the arab world into exotic with the rest of the world in support of the palestinians. so public opinion shifting very, very dramatically now because of the genocide in gaza against these around any favor of their products. the news and therefore i would, um i uh, i see that the steam is the only who of the best hope is that public opinion

will continue to change. and the international criminal court will take action. we'll proceed with investigational will crime scene the occupied territories and that the international court of justice will eventually issue an opinion which would told israel to be guilty of genocide. professor, every sign. thank you you. that's it for the show of continued condolences to those surviving the killing and guys of jerusalem 11 in iraq. m and, and syria will be back with the brand new episodes and saturday until then keep in touch, why will that social media, or if it's not sensitive in your country, and that's what channels going on, the grantee on normal don't come to what you handled episodes of going underground sees that

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