shooting china repeatedly vote at the un security council for cease 5. egypt is now wary of his riley ethnic cleansing, of more than a 1000000 palestinians at the rough of crossing its opposing public even by joe biden. and his western european proxies whose bottoms have now attracted rock syria, human lebanon and palestine professor at the time was given the lifetime achievement award by the british academy, author of the new book, 3 wills, memoirs of an arab, julie's emeritus professor of international relations at oxford, university consisted one of israel's new historians. you joins me now from oaks with. thank you so much for visitors trying for coming on the show so. well, i used to be with you. you said that the industrial scale stores a may have taken israel to the verge of committing genocide. why the verge on what evidence you so far? i've seen in recent days will because i made these comments by some time ago when there was some doubt. but today i have no

hesitation in saying that what user id is doing does all amounts to genocide. genocide is defined by the prevention of genocide. convention is the attempt intestinal attempt to destroy info oh income and basically grew. and this is precisely what israel is doing. and for some time, these really has been consuming ethnic tenzing on the west bank. and now they want to to the ethnic tendency of guys as well. and the forcible, the displacement of civilians is all crime. so that can be no doubt about the fact that p 0 has been committing all crimes by telling civilians

to against the wheel. and the one the 2300000 people in gone. so israel is already forced 1, both of them to move south neutrons, but 1st the 0 to the civilians can move from south to the center then from the center to the south, then further and further south and miles out. most of the civilians about 10000000 in the top of concentrated in rough up on the border full of egypt. so that's the cleansing is beyond dispute. uh, general aside, some people may dispute, but the lady is riley expelled in holocaust study. it said that this is the smoke k textbook case of general song. you don't have to listen to the expense or to me, look at the really the international court of justice which said that south africa

has made implausible case of genocide. yeah, i want to get on the return to is rarely the 2nd, but then if it is, then obviously the last toilet goal is to see involving germany, co conspirator cases. then, i mean, no one is acting as of the genocide convention mandates. does that mean an open the way for britain, so knack and, and bite and in the united states and as live on the land as co conspirators given bay of pouring the weaponry without which the genocide could not take place? a liability? is it a breach in and other european countries while supplying is roadways weapons? completely saved in euro's war crimes. that is for america, i'd like to go further and say that the america is no just complicity news read.

you will cries any in genocide. but the very cases, the enabler of use wally gym assigned. and i say these for 2 reasons. one is that the international community um the while ago wanted to order a complete comprehensive ceasefire. and there was a resolution to that you said in the security council. so the team members voted for the resolution breaching i've stayed, and the united states use the veto. and um and um, re to this resolution. so we could just have a ceasefire, but for america who prevented the seats file. and secondly, the america continues to supply with friends and relations to israel.

and america could threaten to withhold with them, said munitions. and these are, i don't have no choice but to stop the fighting. so america is definitely guilty of obviously patient active participation in the israeli genocide in um, um, gaza and it is probably for this reason that joe biden is on himself and unique day, which is a genocide. jo, as well as you know, they are quite open about the fact in the united states and stilton bug of nature that this will improve the job situation in the, in the united states, increasingly scarred by disparities of power and wealth. actually comparisons between the nazi war economy and the massive pumping of billions of tax dollars

into the united states economy in terms of manufacturing artillery shells with which to mass murder, children in the middle east. that it's best not to make any comparisons between nazi germany and he's rail. it's best to look if he is or has read code and america's record. it's bad enough. so we don't need to draw any comparisons. and we don't need to exaggerate the scale of these really destruction and calm age in the guise of sleep space is for the american or economy. it's always being the case that the weapons manufacturer is located in the south of the united states in republican areas. love israel, because america, do you see a stroke $3800000000.00 in milly trade here?

so this means the american taxpayer, as money goes to use, wrote as a grow and comes back is a profit to the american military industrial complex. that's number one, number 2, because the sell is with the state of the art equipment and the other states. one can we address the balance of cash out to some extent, and therefore buying american weapons. so if somebody makes a profit out of the wall and it's the horrible, it's the military. industrial complex in america, which is always supported, was everywhere. for this reason, they supported or email stanley style and they supported the invasion or from you opt in 2003, iraq where of course you were born. the reason i mentioned the nazis is because genocide that the world code is so red and all of that,

not the experience of of course, i mean we're lavender of was one the prior occasion. but of, of course, it's the cause that costs the shadow when $1.00 starts talking about genocide is 81 years since the was we'll get to uprising a 10th of those who are being killed in guys of what killed, of course, of the use of the word resistance in the, in the way media talks about it in britain where you live. how do you see the debates about what is justified is resistance for some reason your, your prime minister. so neck, a continues to say is realize the right of self defense, which because it doesn't given, isn't occupying power. do you think they understand the historical perils? i promised the did not see comparison question. do they understand the historical barrels with the war? so get through uprising that they must still be the north of dust and the town

is, uh, but no, do they understand the international which is quite a deal on the subject bus sumac install repeat, however, like what by doing says they never move really made to from the american position and they keep repeating the israel has the right to defend it so that he doesn't because of the international. ready you have the right to defend you also, if you are attacked by state, but from us is not a state. secondly, if the attack comes from an area that you occupied, then you don't have the right to self defense. to put it simply, you don't have the right to self defense against the people that your chris more of

a. it's a mouse. if the palestinian is even goes out. who have the right to resist the occupation including the resistance. so international law is quite clear that the 0 doesn't have the right to self defense. in this case, what's the state of freedom in your country? because you're an eminent scholar at oxford university. i've talked to other oaks and professors on this program actually, who i talk about the scale of debate events and help them interested in in britain . what is your understanding of the freedom of speech in britain and in western europe given? you mentioned storm a globally, people that know who he is, but he's the person who was promoted by jeremy colbin. the then leader of the opposition labor policy. and to says the things,

things like what you being telling me in this interview are anti semitic user is mounted a global campaign to be legitimize the supporters of the vs. or quote divestment sanctions, which is the global rudsford. don't pay to end the occupation. and this is a non violent double civil society campaign. it's non violent. i stress that all the main, the minds of the this in trying you mean to national the right of free to, of the 1948 refugees. the right of the senior citizens of the state of israel to uh, uh, a quote to equality and um, and then and a few patients the most important to be box. well he's,

i am trying to me connection a little, but he's real and it's many friends around the world's point that are conducting a campaign against critics a p as well. and the width of my id, somebody please them and embraced them. 3 of the government has adopted the international total cost, memorial association definition of understanding it isn't, and it's a long definition. it's completely vacuous. and the definition itself is useless. it doesn't define anything but then a series of 11 examples or from a list of what made a cost acute anti semitism and $7.00, awfully 11 examples relate to each through. the aim of this definition is not to protect you is a game. so i have to send me prison, but protect israel against legitimate criticisms of the occupation. so after so

many people as being way per night in europe, in germany, in america ending the united kingdom. and the government in this country is time down on pro palestinian protest. professor abbey shame, i'll stop you. best or from the author of 3 worlds. men was of an hour of jew after this break, the, the, the way are in moscow, standing in front of one of russia's most iconic symbols embodies greece, elegance, articles, on a grandiose scale theater, the

welcome back to going on the garden. i'm still here with emeritus professor international relations. adults and university professor ivy shribel through 3 welds ma'am was have an hour to present time. we said in by one we were talking about this conflation of anti semitism and design isn't it affects clearly those countries that express solidarity with the palestinians suffering your birth place . baghdad was for them in the past few days, weeks by british and american. the bomb is a, syria or of course is being bombed,

gammon is being bombed. it's even more serious for um, countries that expressed solidarity. then for scholars there, i say, any examples that you personally have had that you witness a lack of freedom and you're not being able to speak on these issues. or are you given free reign in the british media to tell us about your views as regards what we're witnessing as regards of the gaza genocide? and i have been the professor international relations that talks it over the last 36 years and no one that's my university. as a tried to restrict my freedom of expression. and i still enjoy is i've always enjoyed complete freedom to express my opinions as i am doing to you in this interview now. but the general picture in the country is not so sign.

we know the general picture is that the british government is extremely repressive and it keeps bossing legislation, even though the truth street we don't expression on israel and on the palestinian issue and the goblin keeps giving the police more powerless to come down on pro palestinian. but as the government there was a major, major pro, post female protest in london a few weeks ago. and i went with my wife and my daughter. they were something like 800000 demonstrators. i do see, i mean hey, so if you move all those, those are very good spirited off for our friend displayed or solely diety with the palestinians, both of them on 6th street. so

a brother mine said the piece was i think to mount and she wanted the police stop them out the police to the petty press use to. so we have an extremely, we've pressed the government, which is the enemy of civil rights and which is a blind support to a fees will go to the young quickly to support a fee as well. and that is a situation here today. i haven't, i cannot complain that nicely done with this being restricted, but i've also had one encounter, which is perhaps it seemed to might take off the going and toner is off the supporters of palestine in this country. i was invited to give a lecture by leave of poor hope university on the subject of my moss. and the title was zionism and the jews of the rock. a

personal perspective, a big deal of skill and narrow topic. and yet the jews even leave a poor complaint to the university authorities that this would be on safe. and it raised my top would raise appropriateness of safety. and the university didn't ask me to cancel the lecture, but they asked me to postpone it. and i find right away, i said the case, i wouldn't come now and i was never time to go into the city because this is not an issue of safety. it's an issue of economic freedom. so academic freedom in britain is being eroded all the time for critics of israel and for supporters or from palestinian right. and the best example i can give you of these trends. even payton is the decline and fall off. jeremy colby,

the previous leader of the labor party who was framed who was accused of warranty, certainly fees, and what was an empty racist campaign? i always liked into the opposing anti semitism. there wasn't any evidence against him. so that is, he's actually mean he's been on this program and argument of he started firing people that were close to him on those fake to jumped up. but at the time it isn't charges. it has to be said on the israel. again, one of the arguable founding minutes was that it was a safe place for jews. so do you think actually, given israel is now giving me the most dangerous plays in the world for jews? do you think that we and he's m c mites are really nothing yahoo and those who enable his government in the they conflate, being jewish with being is riley. i do think that and

which i'm, you know, who is a very good example of this combination because many of his friends i could see might like greek to open in hungry like the previous government imposed on the previous government in brazil. these were anti semites. but the pro israel and therefore let them yeah. who doesn't care about anyone please anti semitic, as long as the pro is riley. and this reminds me of something that field or how it so the vision really, if they drew state routine, my name's diary at the end of the 19 century. he said the mtc minds will become of the strongest supporters. and we're seeing this phenomenon today

that i'm israel, that got mixed up with very nasty company. and this is a slightly different point used real supplies. so, um, inside the um, equipment and um is stopping equipment on photos to long range of countries on the world, including including some of the most repressive regimes. so these are plays a global role. you're supplying weapons. and spyware, too, so large range of from, to actually sundries. you write about your background in baghdad, in your latest book, what does it make you feel? knowing your government in britain is bombing iraq again? mean i am absolutely horrified by british

policy towards these very palestinian phone 3 and this is just one example of the contemporary example, but it's a whole policy towards the israeli. palestinian conflict is this is computer also is computer rubbish. it doesn't make any sense because peter says that the 2 penalties should negotiate directly the resolution of the conflict between them. that's the home being any peace stokes for 10 years. israel, the president galvan refuses to have any peace stokes, with the palestinians, and to say the 2 parties should get together to resolve the differences. is like putting a lion in, arrive between the cage and telling them to sort out the differences. the 2 state

solution, you have changed your level now and recognize that actually only a one state solution is possible. what do you feel and people completely ignore the idea of a one state solution and continue to as joe biden does as a nature of nation leaders. continue to do what is wrong with them going on and on about this 2 state solution as i used to support the 2 state solution which would have given the measure of justice to the palestinians. and since 1967, this being the broadest possible international consensus between the 2 states behind the idea of a 2 state solution. and it says, become fashionable to say that the deuce said solution is dead. it is indeed dead because these will kill the user al kill date by building supplements and expand

the supplements on the waste time and by amex see east jerusalem. and by building the circle separation will on the westbank the separation war is closed behind the apartheid war. so use rel, eliminated the cost of the p o, for example, palestine estate, all the, to the left of the products. the meals on the west bank is inc. have surrounded by use regularly settlements and military bases. so i say my starting point now you said the 2 state solution is dead and these are all has to be a good for her to say. the 2 state solution was never bone. it was never born because nobody's really done. when since 1967 is a offered a palestinian state on time,

such would be acceptable to the most moderate understand leader. the 1st of all. and secondly, no american government is a push this through into a to a state of solution. so this is just a convenient phrase for people like buying them. some of them delayed and um and they keep paying on about the 2 state solution. but the reality is that you come to have a 2 state solution and that's why i have change my views. and now i support the only the products solution to this conflict, which is one state from the jordan river to do me to agency with equal rights equal rights for all the citizens, regardless of nationality. office needs to be all religion. yeah. i think the only way i think you are a police force is over there. don't seem to realize that the,

from the river to the c means for jews, christians and wisdom is just finally you mentioned the apartheid will. nelson mandela strategy was, of course violence, and the great mount to bridge on the peaceful, much great bunch of bridge, and resulted in tens of thousands killed by us, u. k. u um the weapons at that border of outside war. what, what would you do if you were a palestinian teenager right now in gaza? would you, uh, would you go with mandela? would you go with gundy a little? i would go leave monday that and i would put my trust in civil society because i have no confidence that the western governments would change the position on israel. but there is a gap. there is a disconnect between wisdom, governments and the publics. the publics are increasingly pro palestinian,

the demonstrations thrown the arab world and these nomic with the rest of the world in support of the palestinians. so public opinion shifting very, very dramatically now because of the genocide in gaza against these around any favor of their products being used. and therefore, i would, um, um uh, i see that the steam is the only hope of the best hope is that public opinion will continue to change and the international criminal court will take action. we'll proceed with the investigation will crime scene the occupied territories. and that the international court of justice will eventually issue an opinion which would told israel to be guilty of

a general side professor every time. thank you you too bye. that's it for the show of continued condolences to those surviving the getting and guys of jerusalem . 11 and iraq human and syria will be back with the brand new episodes and saturday until then keep in touch, why will that social media or if it's not sensitive in your country? and edwin general going underground tv, hon. don't come to us. new handles episodes are going underground. see, is that the hello and welcome to across the board. here we discuss the wheel in russia. land, a vast resources found less potential for civilization. that's open to everyone.

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