to oppose in public, even by joe biden, then is western european. proxies whose bottoms have now attacked. iraq, syria, human lebanon, and palestine. professor at the time was given the lifetime achievement award by the british academy. author of the new book 3 welds, members of an arab, julie's emeritus professor of international relations at oxford university, consider one of israel's new historians. you joins me now from oaks, which thank you so much for visitors showing for coming on the show. so well, i used to be with you, you said that the industrial scale supports a may have taken israel to the verge of committing genocide. why the verge on want evidence you so far seen in recent days? will be 1st. i made these comment by some time ago when there was some doubt. but today i have not hesitate action in saying that what user id is doing does all amounts to genocide. genocide is defined

by the prevention of genocide. convention is the attempt intestinal attempt to destroy info. oh you taught and they actually grew. and this is precisely what israel is doing. and for some time these really has been pursuing estimate tenzing on the west bank. and now they want to, to the ethnic tendency of guys as well. and the forcible, the displacement of civilians is a whole crime. so that can be no doubt about the fact that these are of his being committing all crimes by telling civilians to against the will. and the one the 2300000 people in guns. so israel is already forced

1 of them to move south neutrons by trustee 0 to the civilians can move from south to the center then from the center to the south. then further on the south. and now though most of the civilians about $10000000.00 in the top of concentrated in rafa on the border full of egypt. so if they can sing is beyond dispute. uh, genocide. some people may dispute, but the lady is really expect holocaust study has said that this is the this book k textbook case of general song. and you don't have to listen to the expense or to me. nope, that's a really think national court of justice which said that south africa has made applause of the case of genocide. yeah,

i want to get on it. i want to return to his early in the 2nd, but then if it is, then obviously the last all the cost was involving germany, co conspirator cases. then, i mean, no one is acting as of the genocide convention mandates. does that mean an open the way for britain, so neck and, and binding in the united states and as live on the land as co conspirators is given, they are pouring the weaponry without which the genocide could not take place. that i believe is that breaching and other european countries while supplying is roadways weapons are completely saved in euro's war crimes. that is for america, i'd like to go further and say that america is not just complete and these will cries any in genocide, but the very cases, the enabler of these really gentleness find and i say these for 2 reasons.

one is that the international community um the while ago wanted to order the complete comprehensive ceasefire. and there was a resolution to that you said in the security council. so if you members voted for the resolution, beecham epstein and the united states use the veto. and um and um, vetoed this resolution, so we could just have a ceasefire, but for america who prevented the seats file. and secondly, the america continues to supply with friends and relations to israel. and america could threaten to withhold with them, said munitions. and these are old, have no choice, but to stop the fighting. so america is dumbly guilty of

dissipation, active participation in the israeli genocide in um, gaza. then it is probably for this reason that joe biden is on himself and unique day, which is a genocide. jo, as well as you know, they are quite open about the fact in the united states and still bug of nature that this will improve the job situation in the, in the united states, increasingly scarred by disparities of power and wealth. actually comparisons between the nazi war economy and the massive pumping of billions of tax dollars into the united states economy in terms of manufacturing artillery shells with which to mass murder, children in the middle east. that it's best not to make any comparisons between

nazi germany and israel. it's best to look at the user as record in america's record. it's bad enough, so we don't need to draw any comparisons. and we don't need to exaggerate the scale of these railey destruction. income age in the gaza sleep space is for the american or economy. it's always to be in the case that the weapons manufacturers were located in the south of the united states in republican areas. love israel because america dfcs wrote $3800000000.00 a, a, a milli. create a here. so this means the american tax, this money goes to israel as a grow, then comes back. is a prostate to the american military industrial complex. that's number one,

number 2, because the cell is with the state of the art equipment because the other states want to redress the balance of cash out to some extent, and therefore buying american width. and so if somebody makes a profit off the floor and it's the warlords, they, it's the military industrial complex in america, which is always supported, was everywhere. for this reason, they supported the war enough, danny stein, and they supported the invasion or from you out in 2003, iraq where of course you were born. the reason i mention the nazis is because genocide at the world court is so ready to learn to all of the, not the experience of, of course, i mean we're lavender of was one the prior occasion. but of, of course it's the cause that costs the shadow when $1.00 starts talking about

genocide is 81 years since the was we'll get to uprising. a 10th of those who are being killed in gaza were killed. of course, the use of the word resistance in the, in the way media talks about these in britain where you live. how do you see the debates about what is justified is resistance for some reason your, your prime minister, so neck a continues to say is realize the rights of self defense, which because it doesn't given it's an occupying power. do you think they understand the historical perils? my problem is the did not see comparison question. do they understand the historical barrels with the war? so get through uprising that they must be, it will be the last time to stay in the town is uh, but now do they understand the international which is quite clear on the subject,

but assume i can install repeat however, like what the items is. they never move really made to from the american position and they keep repeating the israel has the right to defend it so that he doesn't because i'm to international. ready you have the right to defend you also, if you are attacked by state, but from us is not a state. secondly, if the attack comes from an area that you occupied, then you don't have the right to self defense. to put it simply, you don't have the right to self defense against the people that your chris, i'm more of a, it's a mouse. it's the color scheme. it is. you can go so who have the

right to resist of the occupation, including the resistance. so international law is quite clear that the 0 doesn't have the right to self defense. in this case, what's the state of freedom in your country? because you're an eminent scholar at oxford university. i've talked to other oaks and professors on this program actually, who i talk about the scale of debate events and help them they sit in in britain. what is your understanding of the freedom of speech in britain and in western europe given? you mentioned storm a globally, people that know who he is, but he is the person who is promoted by jeremy colbin, the then leader of the opposition labor fozzy. and do it says the things, things like what you being telling me in this interview are mc. somebody take you through his mounted a global campaign to be legitimize the supporters of the vs

void, quote, divestment sanctions, which is the global breast foot pay to end the occupation. and this is a non violent double civil society campaign. it's non violent. i stress that all the main, the minds of the this in trying any international, the right a free to of the 1948 refugees, the right of the senior citizens of the state of israel to uh, uh, a quote to equality that and um and then default your patient, that's the most important be bonke. well he's, i am showing interaction a little, but he's real and it's many friends around the world's point that i'll conduct

a campaign against the critics of israel and the width of my anti semitism. and in britain, 3, the government has adopted the international total cost memorial association definition off semitism. and it's a non designation. it's completely vacuous. and the definition itself is useless. it doesn't define anything but then to a series of 11 examples or make a list of what made a cost acute counties, $72711.00 examples relate to ease will be a of these definition is not to protect you is a game. so i have to send me to them, but protect israel against legitimate criticisms of the occupation. so after so many people as being way per night in europe, in germany, in america ending the united kingdom and the government in this country. there's

some down on pro palestinian products. professor ivy shy, miles stuff you've asked for from the author of 3 worlds. memoirs of an arab due after this break the on the moon. when i would show the rom, just don't need to shape out because the application and engagement equals the trail. when so many find themselves will to part, we choose to look for common ground the the way are in moscow,

standing in front of one of russia's most iconic symbols in bodies, greece, elegance, and articles on a grandiose scale theatre the welcome back to going on the garden, i'm still here with america's professor international relations at oxford university professor ivy shribel through 3 wills ma'am, was when i heard you present time, we said in but one we were talking about this conflation of anti semitism as designed as it affects clearly those countries that express solidarity with the

palestinians, suffering your birthplace. bagdad was for them in the past few days, weeks by british and american. the bomb is a, syria, or of course is being bombed. gammon is being bombed. it's even more serious for countries that express solidarity than for scholars. there i say, any examples that you personally have had that you witness a lack of freedom and you're not being able to speak on these issues. or are you given free reign in the british media to tell us about your views as regards what we're witnessing as regards of the gaza genocide? and i have been the professor international relations at tops that for the last 36 years. and no um it's my university as a tried to restrict my freedom of expression and i still enjoy. ready is i've

always enjoyed complete freedom to express my opinions as i am doing to you in this interview now. but the general picture in the country is not so signed we. that's the general picture is that the british government is extremely repressive and it keeps bossing legislation even though the truth street suite on expression on israel and on the palestinian issue. and the government keeps giving the police more powerless to come down on pro palestinian purchased the government . there was a major, major pro post you know, protest in london a few weeks ago. and i went with my wife and my daughter. they were something like 800000 demonstrators. i do see, i mean,

a searching of all those. those are very good spirited off for our friend displayed, or solely diety, with the palestinians, both of them on 6th street. so a brother of mine said the piece was i think to mount and she wanted the police stop them out the police to the petty press used to. so we have an extremely, we've received government, which is the enemy of civil rights and which is a blind support, or if he is a dr. young creature to support a fee as well. and that is a situation here today i have and i cannot complain that nicely done with this being restricted. but i've also had one encounter which is kind of sick to seem to my take off the going in toner is a full supporters of palestine in this country. i was invited to give a lecture by leave of poor hope university on the subject of my memory was

and the title was the designers and the jews of the rock, the personal prospective pick ups, fuel and narrow poppy. and yet, jews even leave a poor complaint to the university authorities that this would be on the safe, and it raised my toe would raise public safety. and the university didn't ask me to cancel the lecture, but they asked me to postpone it. and i would find right away, i said okay, i wouldn't come now and i was never time to go into the city because this is not an issue of safety. it's an issue of economic freedom. so academic freedom in britain is being eroded all the time for critics of israel and for

supporters or from palestinian. right. and the best example i can give you of these trends in britain is the decline and fall off. jeremy colby, the previous um, um leader of the labor party who was framed who was accused of warranty, certainly fees, and what was an empty racist campaign? i always liked into the opposing piece semitism. there wasn't any evidence that gays to happen. so it is, he's actually mean he's been on this program and i'll give me a he started firing people that were close to him on those fake drummed up. but i had these images and charges it has to be said on israel. again, one of the arguable founding minutes was that it was a safe place for jews. so do you think actually given isabel is now giving me the most dangerous plays in the world for jews? do you think that we and he's m c mites are really nothing yahoo and those who

enable his government in the bank. complaints, being jewish with being is riley. i do think that and which i'm, you know, who is a very good example of this combination because many of his friends i can see might like greek to them in hungry like the previous government imposed on the previous government in brazil. these went on to see might split the pro israel and therefore let them yeah. who doesn't care about anyone, please anti semitic as long as the pro is riley. and this reminds me of something that the field or how it so the vision reinstated really state road to my evenings,

diarrhea. at the end of the 19th century, he said, the empty c mites will become of the strongest supporters. and we're seeing this phenomenon today that i'm israel, that got mixed up with very nasty company. and this is a slightly different point. use rel supplies. so, um, inside the, um, equipment and um is stopping equipment on photos to along to it and drift countries on the world, including including some of the most repressive regimes. so these are plays a global role. you're supplying weapons and spyware too. so large range of um to actually stop trees, you write about your background in baghdad in your latest book,

what does it make you feel? knowing your government in britain is bombing iraq. again, i am absolutely horrified by british policy towards these very palestinian phone 3 and this is just one example of the contemporary example. but it's a whole fleet, each policy towards these really for this, the conflict is this is computed also is complete rubbish. it doesn't make any sense because peter says that the 2 parties should negotiate directly the resolution of the conflict between them. that the home being any piece stokes for 10 years israel, the president galvan refuses to have any peace stokes, with the palestinians, and to say the 2 parties should get together to resolve the differences. is like

putting a lion in, arrive between the cage and telling them to sort out the differences, the 2 state solution. you have changed your level now and recognize that actually only a one state solution is possible. what do you feel? and people completely ignore the idea of a one state solution and continue to as joe biden does as a nature of nation. leaders continue to do what is wrong with them going on and on about this 2 state solution. i used to support the 2 state solution which would have given the measure of justice to the palestinians. and since 1967, this being the broadest possible international consensus between the 2 states behind the idea of a 2 state solution. and it says,

become fashionable to say that the dues, say its solution is dead. it is indeed dead because these ro, she'll be used for al kill date by building supplements and expanding supplements on the waste time and by amex see east jerusalem. and by building the circle separation wall on the westbank, the separation war is closed behind the apartheid war. so use rel, eliminated the cost would be the p o for variable palestine estate, all the to the left of the products. the males on the west bank is inc. have surrounded by use regularly settlements and military bases. so i say my starting point, now you said this 2 state solution is dead and these are all has to be a good photo say the 2 state solution was never bone. it was never born

because nobody's really done. when since 1967 is a offered a palestinian state on time, such would be acceptable to the most moderate esteem leader. first of all and secondly, nearly $20.00 a month is a push to you through into a to a state of solution. so this is just a convenient phrase for people like buying them. some of them delayed and um and they keep paying on about the 2 state solution. but the reality is that your coms have a 2 state solution and that's why i have change my views. and now i support the only the perfect solution to this conflict, which is one state from the jordan river to do me to agency with equal rights. equal rights for all the citizens,

regardless of nationality. office needs to be all religion. yeah. i think the only way i think your police force is over there. don't seem to realize that the from the river to this amiens, for the jews, christians and muslims, is just, finally, you mentioned the apartheid will. nelson mandela strategy was of course violence. and the great mount you bridge on the peaceful, much great bunch of were done, resulted in tens of thousands killed by us, u. k. u. um the weapons at that border apartheid will. what, what would you do if you were a palestinian teenager right now in gaza? would you uh, would you go with mandela? would you go with guntee? that's what i would do. we've monday the um, and i would put my trust, you know, civil society. because i have no confidence that the western governments will

change the position on israel. but there is a gap, there is a disconnect between wisdom, governments and the publics. the publics are increasingly pro palestinian, the demonstrations around the arab world and the economy with the rest of the world in support of the palestinians. so public opinion shifting very, very dramatically now because of the genocide in gaza. again, caesar of any pharaoh for further study news. and therefore i would, um, um, uh, i see that the steam is the only who of the best hope is that public opinion will continue to change. and the international criminal court will take action will proceed with the investigation or will crime scene the occupied territories.

and that the international court of justice will eventually issue an opinion which would told israel to be guilty of genocide. professor, every time. thank you you and that's it for the show of continued condolences to those surviving the getting and gaza. jerusalem 11 and iraq human and syria will be back with the brand new episodes and saturday until then keep in touch. why will that social media or if it's not sensitive in your country, and that's what channels going on, the ground tv are normal, don't come to us. new and old episodes are going underground. see, is that the russian land a fast resources found less potential for civilization than to have

this number the due date on the 6th show to system countries. most exciting accomplishments, holding one venue with 2 boys and to do with the pursuit can use this is what i'm thinking. pardon, do you want me to be able to teach this as the rush? it can be in the email to get you guys mentioned which one with almost a week maybe back up last night, late at the present to stage to move into the into the interview was conducted the institution to the end of triumph. and for the one to the for the

hello and welcome to cross the full doors. here we discuss the wheel and the town itself is fairly under the control of the russian forces. there are no sabotaged groups. there's no ukrainians, there's no ukrainians who left here who decided to stay here. willingly. these were changing, city of ideas is liberated as russian armed forces have evacuated. schools of wounded ukrainian troops who apparently left for dead parts this way the farm and as to declares the resilient president bestowed it on grocer. following his comparison of the golf with conflicts to the.