the, the, the town itself is the family under the control of the russian forces. there are no sabotage groups. there's no ukrainian, but there's no ukrainian food left here who decided to stay here willingly. the strategic city of df guy protecting those russian armed forces evacuate schools of one of the ukrainian troops where apparently left behind him and even with a strong 2 american ships failing in the gulf of ogden as a part of their campaign for god's out earlier peoples a british vessel and down to us from brazil says it's absurd and that is realistically the threats in persona non grata for comparing the depth of civilians

in gaza to the whole gulf and successive governments have given people only 3 options, the space. subjugation both the palestine demands as role and the it's occupation as well. the legal proceedings against the beginning of the united nations board in the case the of all the headlines for the ssl i had to our website doc. com for more i'm, they show our josh going underground is up. next the i'm asked sooner than say, welcome back to going underground, broadcasting all around the world from the middle east today,

the so called world quarter game puts the u. s. u, u k. on these are held on trial for another genocide like case, tens of thousands, mostly women and children have been killed by nature weapons in gaza, while russia and china repeatedly voted the un security council for cease 5. egypt is now wary of his riley ethnic cleansing of more than a 1000000 palestinians at the rough crossing. it's opposed in public, even by joe biden, and is western european proxies whose bottoms have now attacked. iraq, syria, m and 11 and, and palestine. professor at the time was given the lifetime achievement award by the british academy, author of the new book, 3 wills, memoirs of an arab. julie's america's professor of international relations at oaks with the domestic incident, one of israel's new historians. he joins me now from oaks, which thank you so much for visitors showing vera coming on the show. so well, i used to be with you. you said that the industrial scale small as a may have taken israel to the verge of committing genocide. why the verge on what evidence you so far i've seen in recent days will because i made

these comment by some time ago when there was some doubt. but today, i have no hesitation in saying that toward user at least doing does all amounts to genocide. genocide is defined by the prevention of genocide. convention is the attempt intentional, attempt to destroy info or you can pause in this big group. and this is precisely what israel is doing. and for some time these really has been pursuing estimates ending on the west bank. and now they want to to the speak, tennessee of guys as well. and the forcible, the displacement of civilians is

a whole crime. so that can be no doubt about the fact that p 0 has been committing all crimes by telling civilians to against the will. and i'm the one to 2300000 people in gone. so israel is already forced 1 of them to move south north ones, but 1st the 0 to the civilians can move from south to the center then from the center to the south, then further and further south and miles out most of the civilians to block the 1000000 and the prop, concentrated in rafa on the border, full of egypt. so that's the kind of thing is beyond dispute. the general side. some people may dispute, but the lady is riley expelled in holocaust study. they said that this is

a smoke k textbook case of gentle song. you don't have to listen to the expense or to me, look at the really think national court of justice, which said that south africa has made implausible case of genocide. yeah, i want to get on that. i want to return to his early in the 2nd, but then if it is, then obviously the last all the goal is to is involving germany, co conspirator cases. then, i mean, no one is acting as of the genocide convention mandates. does that mean an open the way for britain, so napkin and, and biden, in the united states and as live on the land as co conspirators given bay a pouring the weaponry without which the genocide could not take place. that i believe is it a breach in and other european countries while supplying is row with weapons?

countries saved in euro's war crimes. as for america, i would like to go further and say that the america is not just complete and use a new will cries any in genocide. but the very k is the enabler of these wally journalists find. and i say these for 2 reasons. one is that the international community um the while ago wanted to order the complete comprehensive ceasefire. and there was a resolution to that you said in the security council. so if you members voted for the resolution, beecham epstein and the united states use the veto. and um and um, uh, re, to this resolution. so we could just head a ceasefire, but for america who prevented the seas file. and secondly,

the america continues to supply with friends and relations to israel and america, who would threaten to withhold with them, said munitions. and these are, i don't have no choice but to stop the fighting. so america is definitely guilty of obviously patient active participation in the israeli genocide in um, um, gaza then it is probably for least reason that joe biden is on himself and unique day, which is genocide. jo, as well as you know, they are quite open about the fact in the united states and stilton bug of nature, that this will improve the job situation in the, in the united states,

increasingly scarred by disparities of power and wells who are actually comparisons between the nazi war economy and the massive pumping of millions of tax dollars into the united states economy in terms of manufacturing artillery shells with which to mass murder, children in the middle east. that it's best to make any comparisons between lot see germany and israel. it's best to look at these are us reg, code and america's record. it's bad enough. so we don't need to draw any comparisons. and we don't need to exaggerate the scale of these really destruction. income age in the guy is a split street is for the american or economy. it's always been the case that the weapons manufacturers were located in the south of the united states in republican

areas. love israel, because america, do you see a stroke $3800000000.00 a a, a milli. create a here. so this means the american tax, this money goes to use, wrote as a guam and comes back as a proceed to the american military industrial complex. that's number one, number 2, because the cell is um, with the state of the art equipment, the other states, one can we address the balance? we'll catch up to some extent and therefore by american weapons. so if somebody makes a profit off the floor and it's the horrible weights, the military industrial complex in america which is always supported, was everywhere. for this reason. they supported the war, montgomery style and they supported the invasion or from you out in 2003

iraq later on because you were born. the reason i mention the not jesus, because genocide that the world court is so ready to learn to all of the, not the experience of, of course, i mean we're lender of was one the prior occasion. but of, of course, it's the cause that costs the shadow when $1.00 starts talking about genocide is 81 years since the was we'll get to uprising a 10th of those who are being killed and guys of what killed. of course, the use of the word resistance in the, in the way media talks about it in britain where you live. how do you see the debate about what is justified is resistance for some reason your, your prime minister, so neck a continues to say is realize the right of self defense, which because it doesn't given, isn't occupying power. do you think they understand the historical power,

those i problem is the did not see comparison question. do they understand the historical power, those with the will. so get through uprising the that they must be, it will be the not understand the title is, but now do they understand the international, which is by could be on the subject, but assume i can stall, repeat high risk, like what by doing says they never move really made to from the american position and they keep repeating the israel has the right to defend it. so if he doesn't because i'm to international. ready you'll have the right to defend you also, if you are attacked by the state. but thomas is not a state. secondly, um, if the tech comes from an area that you occupied,

then you don't have the right to self defense. to put it simply, you don't have the right to self defense against the people that your chris more of a. it's a mouse. if the palestinian student goes out, who have the right to release of the occupation, including the resistance. so international law is quite clear that the 0 doesn't have the right to self defense. in this case, what's the state of freedom in your country? because you're an eminent scholar at also university. i've talked to other option professors on this program actually, who i talk about the scale of debate events and help them listed in, in britain. what is your understanding of the freedom of speech in britain and in western europe given?

you mentioned storm a globally, people that know who he is, but he's the person who was promoted by jeremy colbin. the then leader of the opposition labor policy. and to says the things, things like what you being telling me in this interview are mc. somebody take you through his mounted a global come pay to be legitimize the supporters of the vs. or quote divestment sanctions, which is the global rust foot. don't pay to and the occupation and this is a non violent double civil society campaign. it's non violent. i stress that all the main, the minds of the vs enshrined in the international the right of free to of the 1948 that refugees, the right of the senior citizens of the state of israel to uh, uh,

a quote to equality and um, and then and a few patients, so most importantly the box. well he's, i'm trying to need some action a little, but he's real and it's many friends around the world's conduct. a conduct a campaign against critics, a p as well. and the width m i n t, somebody please them and embrace them very uh, the government has adopted the international total cost. memorial association definition of understanding it isn't. and it's a non definitely nation. it's completely vacuous. and the definition itself is useless. it doesn't define anything but then to a series of 11 examples or make a list of what made a cost acute anti semitism. and $711.00 examples relate to ease will be

a of these definition is not to protect you is a game. so i have to send me please them, but protect these well against legitimate criticisms of the occupation. so after so many people as being way per night in europe, in germany, in america ending the united kingdom. and the government in this country is come down on pro palestinian protest. professor abbey shame, i'll stop you. best or from the author of 3 wells, men was of an arab due after this break the, the, the look forward to talking to you all that technology should work for people. a robot must obey the orders given by human beings accept. we're such orders at

conflict with the 1st law show alignment of the patient. we should be very careful about visual intelligence at the point, obviously is to create a trust rather than fit the various jobs. i mean with artificial intelligence. we have somebody with the him in the robot must protect his phone, existence was on the same wrong. just don't have to shape out the application and engagement equals the trail. when so many find themselves will support, we choose to look so common ground the

the welcome back to going on the garden. i'm still here with emeritus professor international relations . adults and university professor ivy shribel through 3 welds, ma'am, was have an hour to present time. we said in by one we were talking about this conflation of anti semitism and design isn't it affects clearly those countries that express solidarity with the palestinians, suffering your birthplace. bagdad was for them in the past few days, a week by british and american. the bomb is a siri or of course is being bombed, gammon is being bombed. it's even more serious for countries that expressed solidarity than for scholars. there i say, any examples that you personally have had that you witness a lack of freedom and you're not being able to speak on these issues. or are you

given free reign in the british media to tell us about your views as regards what we're witnessing as regards of the gaza genocide? and i have been the professor international relations to talk since for the last 36 years. and no um it's my university as a tried to restrict my freedom of expression and i still enjoy. ready as i've always enjoyed complete freedom to express my opinions as i am doing to you in this interview now. but the general picture in the country is not so science. we don't. the general picture is that the british government is extremely repressive and it keeps bossing legislation, even though the truth strict freedom of expression on israel and on the palestinian

issue and the goblin keeps giving the police powers to come down on pro palestinian voters. the government there was a major, major pro post, you know, protest in london a few weeks ago. and i went with my wife and my daughter. they were something like 800000 demonstrators. i don't see any, hey. so she knows all those. those are very good spirited off for our friend displayed, or solely diety, with the palestinians, both of them on 6th street. so a brother of mine said the piece was, i think, to mount and she wanted the police stop them out. the police to the very press used to so we have an extremely repressive government, which is the enemy of civil rights and which is

a blind support of use will go to the young quickly to support a fee as well. and that is the situation here today i have and i cannot complain that nicely done with this being restricted. but i've also had one encounter, which is perhaps it seemed to my take off the going and toner is off for supporters of palestine in this country. i was invited to give a lecture by leave up poor hopes university on the subject of my name was and the title was design is and the use of the rock, a personal perspective, a big deal of skill and narrow topic. and yet the jews even leave a poor complaint to the any of us if he a sorry to use that this would be on the safe and it raised my top would raise

appropriateness of safety. and the university didn't ask me to cancel the lecture, but they asked me to postpone it. and i would find right away, i said, okay, i wouldn't come now. and i was never time to go into the city because this is not an issue of safety. it's an issue of economic freedom. so academic freedom, immigration is being eroded all the time for critics of israel info supporters or from palestinian right. and the best example i can give you of these trends in britain is the decline and fall off. jeremy colby, the previous lead to the labor party who was praying, who was accused of 20 certainly peace and what was an empty racist campaign. i

always liked into the opposing anti semitism. there wasn't any evidence against absolutely days he's actually been, he's been on this program and argument of he started firing people that were close to him on those fake drummed up. i had these images and charges it has to be said on israel again, one of the arguable founding minutes was that it was a safe place for jews. so do you think actually, given israel is now giving me the most dangerous plays in the world for jews? do you think that we and he's m c mites are really nothing yahoo and those who enable his government in the they conflate, being jewish with being is riley. i do think that and which i'm, you know, who is a very good example of this on the nation because many of his friends and cassim whites like greek to open

in hungry like the previous government. even poland, the previous government in brazil. these went on to see mites, but the pro israel and therefore let them yeah. who doesn't care about anyone please anti semitic as long as the pro is riley. and this reminds me of something that i feel to hurt. so the vision will yes, literally state roku, my evenings diarrhea. at the end of the 19th century, he said the mtc minds will become of the strongest supporters. and we're seeing this phenomenon today at that israel that got mixed up with very nasty company. and this is a slightly different point used real supplies. so um inside the,

um, equipment and um you stopping equipment on photos to along to it and drift countries on the world, including including some of the most repressive regimes. so these are plays a global ro is supplying weapons. and spyware too, so large range of from factories, countries you write about your background in baghdad, in your latest book, what does it make you feel? knowing your government in britain is bombing iraq. again, i am absolutely horrified by british policy towards these rarely palestinian country. and this is just one example of the contemporary example, but it's a whole policy towards the israeli. palestinian conflict is. this is computer

also is computer rubbish. it doesn't make any sense because peter says that the 2 penalties should negotiate directly the resolution of the conflict between them. that the him being any piece stokes for 10 years israel. the present government refuses to have any peace stokes, with the palestinians. and to say the 2 parties should get together and resolve the differences is like putting a lion in, arrive between the change in telling them to sort of the differences, the 2 state solution. you have changed your level now and recognize that actually only a one state solution is possible. what do you feel? and people completely ignore the idea of a one state solution and continue to as joe biden does as a nato nation. leaders continue to do what is wrong with them going on and on about

his 2 state solution. i used to support the 2 state solution which would have given the measure of justice to the palestinians. and since 1967, this being the broadest possible international consensus between the 2 states behind the idea of a 2 state solution. and it says, become fashionable to say that the deuce said solution is dead is indeed dead because these will kill the user al kill date by building supplements and expand the supplements on the waste time and by exceed east jerusalem. and by building the circle separation will, on the westbank, a separation war is closed behind the apartheid for. so use rel,

eliminated the cost of the p. o, for example, palestine estate, all the to the left of the products. the males on the west bank is inc. have surrounded by use, regularly settlements and military bases. so i say my starting point, now you said this to state solution is dead and these are all his kilby. i'll get further and say the 2 state solution was never bone. it was never born because nobody's really done when since 1967 is a offered a palestinian state on time, such would be acceptable to the most moderate understand leader the 1st of all. and secondly, no american government is a push this through into a to a state of solution. so this is just a convenient phrase for people like buying them. some of them delayed and

they keep paying on about the 2 state solution. but the reality is that you come to have a 2 state solution and that's why i have change my views. and now i support the only the project solution to this conflict, which is one state from the jordan river to do me to a nancy with equal rights. equal rights for all the citizens, regardless of nationality. office needs to be all religion. yeah. i think the only way i think you are a police force is over there. don't seem to realize that the, from the river to the c means for jews, christians and wisdom is just finally you mentioned the apartheid will. nelson mandela strategy was of course violence, and the great mount you bridge on the peaceful, much great, but you were done, resulted in tens of thousands killed by us, u. k. you um,

the weapons at that border apartheid will. what, what would you do if you were a palestinian, the teenager right now in gaza? would you, would you go with mandela? would you go with guntee? that's what i would do. we've monday that and i would put my trust, you know, civil society. because i have no confidence that the western governments would change the position on israel. but there is a gap. there is a disconnect between wisdom, governments and the publics. the publics are increasingly pro palestinian. the demonstrations found the arab world and the exotic with the rest of the world in support of the palestinians. so public opinion shifting very, very dramatically now because of the genocide in gaza against these around any

favor of their products being used. and therefore, i would, um i uh, i think that the further steam is the only who of the best hope is that public opinion will continue to change and the international criminal court will take action. we're to c o h c, investigation or will crime scene the occupied territories. and that the international court of justice will eventually issue an opinion which would told israel to be guilty of genocide. professor every time. thank you. thank you. that's it for the show of continued condolences to those surviving the killing and guys of jerusalem 11 and iraq in.