bravo to get the weapons, they need to fight insecurity. tell rooms everywhere, and the most tight in africa. unfortunately, where one getting the brunt. unfortunately, we don't produce, we follow that. we're using fighting them. if you would, up with this reform mixing extremely difficult for us to even get the reform to be able to address this issues. and so we also appealing to them to cost you that if only we can get one percent of the weed funds that we're giving to you free. i show you men joe, but peaceful men. jones was, is very, very comfortable. we don't need any of that. and then for the book on ground, he was equally meant. my julia is facing numerous security problems, including as loudly as insurgency in the northeast, kidnap and surround some deadly farm. i heard a process in the central belt and separate east and gang fallen in the south east. the defense to also raised concerns about arms for leave for reason in africa. he said the trend is worse than for security challenge. for fridays,

he also said the climate change had excessive pay that hunger and premium biology in the region made a general most of said by julia, is taking measures to tighten border patrols to control arms smuggling, but noted by the international communities and countries that produce weapons also must be more accountable in the fights we have would so, but one of them you swap on the bi limits, we also have to be able to come by level we points on that content we fall into the country. and so it shows that it will require in a, an international corporation, collaboration for us to be able to address those issues. most african countries don't produce this, we phones, this will probably get into the wrong hands and they become a traits. because uh, like you mentioned that you creating a little repose i've, when i know this with alls i made for most was time nations. and that's why we use this opportunity to call them them. to take it as a responsibility to ensure that they put tomatoes in place. but this will probably

get the wrong hands of. ready once they do when have a little pigment mouse and you had these down and ready to use them, i guess it was sensitive. speaking on the political turmoil in west africa, the nigerian defensive set of course, is continuing dialogue with the military's of molly new jersey and for keen a process to restore constitutional order in their respective countries and reverse be a disease or to push the blog. the 3 member states on january the 28th announced the withdrawal from the regional block in a joint communicate accusing f last of a battling it's found in principles pandering to foreign powers and failing to help member states address security challenges. tennessee easy. r t boned material. those are the top stars. that's our head to our website. how to come from one use analyses and coverage. i'm a nationwide josh. he'll be back up on top of the hour with the latest stay with us, [000:00:00;00]

the hello, and welcome to cross talk. we're all things are considered. i'm peter lavelle, american investor, david sax as to ukraine. complex is based on paul search and to see about how it started and how it's going and how it will end. on this edition of the programs we examine all 3 propositions. the cross section ukraine, i'm joined by my guess and colic in pittsburgh. he is a professor of law,

an author of the plot to scape gold rushes in salt lake city. we have david pines, he is deputy director of national operations for the task force on national and homeland security and invalid. we cross the carlos out. he is a political analyst, his story and, and host of the silk and steel podcasts are gentlemen across stock roads in effect, that means you can jump any time we want. and i always appreciate it. i'm going to go 1st. the dan, i mean i really like how do, uh, the, the invest investor sacks of broken down into 3 parts. so let's look at the 1st one . how did the complex start and ukraine? because he's saying that western media is preventing allies false hood and defeat. go ahead, den. yeah. well 1st of all, as you know, i've been to the dawn bass twice in the last year. and really a lot of it centers around there that the, the conflict really began in 2014, with the to against the democratically elected government and tia, but to that, the us back. right. when government came to power,

which was very hostile towards its russian, ethnic and speaking populations, particularly in the east, particularly in the dawn bass. and when the dog bass dynette skim oh hogs. uh, became alarmed about where the country was headed, they declared their independence of from t a with the referendum and tier began to shell and attacked. yeah, but the dam. i thought i thought it all started one morning in february of 2022. the rushes suddenly attacked you crate, that's the narrative that we get in the west there. but it's a not a true narrative already by then. 14000 people had died in that conflict between t. evan and the john bass and russians. intelligence was that uh, a key. i was preparing for an invasion uh, a ground invasion of,

of the dom bass and a russian decided it could not allow that. okay, wait, wait, i have that for me. oh, i see. you don't even need that from a residence or as, as a david in salt lake city. i mean, when we, when we look at the origins of the complex, very little is said about how the ukranian military had been nato allies. where you had a nato advisors, recognizance, i mean everything you need for a more modern army was being pumped in there at a furious rate that's never mentioned in the narrative visit. david, you know, it's not, we had about 1000 nato troops including, you know, of course, that's our county c i, a operatives training and the pre military. we were training and at the rate of 10000 a year, we had 80000 sure. and data trained troops and you, the crating are made to forms kind of the lead forces of, of, uh, the deeper in our me and uh uh, we were, we had joint military exercises with uh, between nato and ukraine,

inside of ukraine and western new freight. and uh, and then finally we had a uh bite and signed a, a squeegee, strategic partnership agreement between us and, and ukraine. which of course was an because for us and all these were a necessary publications. as was just stated in this, possibly really again, with the, the 2014 coo that was authorized by a then vice president by a binding really is the common denominator in, uh, is starting this morning. that's why a long been referred to this war as binds were, rather include as well as it'd be part ways we made it before. it was by the way that it was makes for. it was victoria newlands war. i thought i kept calling it back in 2014 was carl and involving one another issue that is not mentioned it is that in this, in december 2021 before the conflict in february 2022, russia basically sent out its terms saying, we we want to avoid a conflict here,

but we will react to military and technical re means and that was completely ignored. again, not part of the narrative. carl, the exactly is like, uh, fetching board and pointed out during his tucker cross interview. grandma harris actually went to europe and set hopefully getting bounced to ukraine. she'll be walk them into natal. i mean, the 2017 is when the work broke out, but it's really a formulation of the study nato expansion use word since 1992, which is really, i mean it's, it's the whole purpose was to justify the continue exist as a natal optical war. you know, i made, it was formed against soviet union, so the union class russian wanted to be friends with the west. but all the nato bureaucrats realize, wait a minute, they're going to be a hold of jobs. so it's all about jobs is all about jobs, and it's about money and, and hubris. so i would say, okay, then let's take

a look at the 2nd question. how is the war going? well, according to the munich security conference, that ended up last week. so everything is basically on court. it's a, it's tough, you know, tough times ahead and all that. but russia is losing ukraine is winning again. what's wrong with that narrative, dan? yeah, no rushes steadily gain ground in this war very methodically and slowly but that's their strategy. i mean they i'm like israel and gaza. busy rushes actually taken great pains not to destroy a civilian infrastructure in kill civilians. and so they have slowly but surely gained a regions in the eastern ukraine. and they have widowed away at the ukraine, you know, army, to the point where, frankly, you know, as we know, ukraine's been forced to now can script people off the street, elderly people and disabled people because they have no one else left by. and you know,

they're always on the verge of being out of the nations as well. even the wes nato is running out of munitions because of this war rush i, i think is, it could be said to be handily winning this war. it could when it overnight, if it wanted to again, if it wanted the carpet bomb key of like again the u. s. and 8 or willing to carpet bomb, you know, serve or whatever they can do that, but they don't, you know, dad, but it's really interesting and said zalinski and he's a jet set, or he gets the fly all over the place of these fancy conferences. but they are poor, it is still open in care of has been during the entire conflict. it hasn't been bombed. okay. and this is something that's it ever pointed out, you know, david, what's really interesting, again, mentioning the munich security conference is that according to zelinski, they're, they, they're, that they're facing challenges because of the republicans in the house of representatives that watch with you. you know, it does,

it certainly is the us is uh, primarily responsible for prolonging this war. uh, there was, of course, the a simple peace agreement which was 90 percent complete as president and outlined to reduce dr. crossing interview. and then it was a, you know, this is, this was a very favorable agreement towards a, towards the pray. uh, what is the entail the entire withdrawal prussian horses outside of the dog boss and crimea premium, of course, really was always russian. but the dog boss was much disputed. um and uh, you know, this was, uh, this was actually really the ideal argument. this is kind of the that was the piece agreement, essentially that i would argue that biden's trying to get back to them, but he wouldn't be too asleep project. and so he to repeat that the prior to that it was the median, some agreements that was really an ideal that uh, a free brain that was championing. and now of course, it's enormous disagreements and offices agreement that,

that i called for back in september of 2022 in the national interest. you know, my own real worth of stack. and you know, that is, that is really the key. that is the key to, you know, a piece of it is an instance without victors, a, you know, you pray or you, franklin smid as victory. nato can spin a victory. of course, it's more of a victory for russia overall, but it's uh, it would be 18 percent of your grades that are actually recognized territory in neutrality, outside of nato. and those would be the 2 main terms. and most of those terms are, you know, obviously, neutrality. yes, i mean, it was something that so lensky belatedly agreed to the day after the invasion. so i know, yeah, it's all, it's all a matter of coming coming back to common sense and us down to peace and stability for the region. unfortunately, we're not there yet, and we won't be for a long time. you know, carol, what we have here is that i think we've had over the last few weeks and ritual countries like germany, france,

the u. k. signing security agreements with ukraine. i don't know why they're doing it in the middle of a conflict. i don't know what were you crane, they're actually talking about. and this is, you know, and on top of it, instead of trying to secure as much funding as they can from the west, nobody is talking piece, at least in the west. nobody in nato is talking piece, that is the biggest problem here. exactly. i mean, the problem is not funding the united states can pres, money up to the was used for the problem is us. and to a certain extent, europe has been sold the industrialized that they cannot even provide artillery shells for you create, you know, united states have over the altogether, dear trillion dollars the military budget. and yet, it can change even produce strawman military goods that needed to win was a slight artillery shop. russia alone is out producing the desired naval country

combined. right now the ukraine is, i mean the objective observer of the conflict will tell you, ukraine is losing the. busy is more hours class and it's manpower is being depleted now they're talking about sending refugee ukrainian man from the back of europe to, to, to be drafted. and they're talking about some scripting women. i mean, how would, how could you create when there's no password victory for your brain at this point? well, i mean, but, but they seem to think the people in nato world think that, you know, 60000000000 dollars. well, they'll be there just around the corner. i cannot conceive dan, real quick, i can't even, even if they got the money, what did they go to do with it? they? yeah, again, they don't have the troops anymore in the, in the morales thinking, i mean, i think, honestly this war will be over. i'm predicting by the end of the summer, wherever they send the $60000000000.00 where they go. well, yeah, i mean,

but of course this is supposed to be money that will go into potentially the next administration. so they want, it seems to me the arms dealers and all the a cut out to the n g o's. they want a secured of funding into 2025. they think that's what it seems more about. always gentlemen, it's never really about ukraine, is it? it's all about the money. it's all about the grip or a gentleman. i'm going to jump in here. we're going to go and go to a short break. and after that short break, we'll continue our discussion on ukraine. stay with our team. the

the welcome back across stock were all things are considered. i'm peter lavelle to mind you were discussing. you create the ok. it's go back to david in salt lake city a. let's go to the 3rd proposition, how the war will and well, it's really difficult to grapple with this one. because if you look at the official narrative rush, i lost a half a year ago, but they're still looking for money to keep ukraine propped up. i mean, they can't even get that talking point straight. go get rushes already lost. so you, ukraine is winning. i mean, and, you know, when you, with all the social media right now, these telegram channels here, it's really hard. i mean, if you have even a passing interest in, in the topic,

it's quite obvious that this official narrative is know, and boy, david yes, absolutely, right. i mean, you agree is last nearly 30 percent of its g p. that was 27 percent of us population 18 percent of its territory. they last uh, according to the most reasonable in moderate estimates. uh half a 1000000 troops uh, debtor, seriously wounded. which is about 3 times higher than what rushes lost in rocky by a single square ridge and rough in territory. i mean, there's literally no metrics that nato could use to, to judge that uh, you agree is wayne, the war. and yeah, we can see it here. you know, your, this, uh, this nonsense. uh, i mean, uh, zalinski recently stated that the ukraine military consists of 600000 active duty trips. until recently it was 1300000. so it could, the casualties actually could be over 50 percent. it could be $700000.00 ukrainians, killed or seriously wounded. so it, this has been a disaster for you. creighton,

i'm preparing to write any article that's nearly completed, but it should be coming to knowledge it. any unbiased observer that this has been a disaster. this whole of this whole uh, you pray, nato membership or sued has been really just irrational. it's been absolutely give us the address of the, of the printers in a very much so it gets the us national security interest as well, which is peace with russia. and we ought to be a, have a strategic partnership with rational along the lines of uh, what was proposed in december uh by uh, the russian federation with their uh, mutual security agreement which was made on which was very faint, which was absolutely acceptable. it as written and uh, as well as the one that was offered us, which are 75 percent acceptable. yeah, and carl, what they did, because for, for russia, it has been day 2 expansion and even the head of nato, salt and birds. he admitted this finely, belatedly,

he wouldn't say it honestly for the good part of the complex when he came out and maybe it was unintended on his part. we don't know, but he even admitted a rush. it started, it's military operations because of nato expansion. so what did they do? they expand nato, i think be the thing you've already mentioned tucker carlson's interview with vladimir putin. and again, he was asked point blank uh, how would you like to see a ceasefire? would you like to see an end of this conflict? and the russian president said, yes, yeah. okay, i mean, i don't know what else you can do. i mean, the most watched interview in the world. if you have a passing interest in this, you know what rushes position is, b k because it came from the president's mouth himself. but that, of course, was ignored. carl, exactly, it's brand new right now. it's so security. you're leading, washington and europe. that's driving the war, you know, we know what happened during the negotiation to do that, the early phase of negotiation to the end,

the war and forest johnson can sit and tell you cry. no, no, no. we went back to a 100 percent. right? oh, even if the west do, back ukraine, 100 percent, and ukraine still cannot achieve victory? as i said earlier, the united states has been sold the industrialized, the cannot provide ukraine was the get the munition, it needs wizard, salary, shout, you need us. can people frame money, but after certain point, they're just paper. you know what you can set $60000000000.00 worth of paper to ukraine. that's not going to help you. great quote. uh well, actually, carl ends up mostly coming back to the suburbs in virginia. okay. at the end of the day, i mean it, it's a griffith, it's a huge griffin. i think that's why a lot of these people are pushing the 60 billions because they know it's the last time they're going to be able to feed at the trough. okay, so they want to get paid in advance. okay. it's a is a cynical. yeah,

but this whole i did this whole complex is so cynical. it's the most avoided avoidable conflict in my lifetime. and i've seen a lot of conflicts. you know, dan, what's really interesting if we can throw in the, the gods a dimension here and look at this kind of globally, is that you have the west on the wrong side of issues, okay? you have the united states in europe. so supporting a, a racist regime and in cab, a racist regime in israel and the whole world can see this dance to know it's absolutely right. i was listening to george galloway this morning and he said, you know, the west, the sun is now setting in the west and it is now rising in the east, which is very clear. as you say, the world sees the difference in how russia prostitutes this war. new crane and now israel prosecutes the war and guys, a,

i think this statistic i saw was that about less than $600.00 children have died in the special military operations in ukraine. meanwhile, you already have something like 15000 children who died in gaza and intentionally so it's a brutal, brutal campaign that's happening in gaza in a very short period of time. we also have to, you know, recognize as opposed to, you know, we're now with 2 years in to the conflict and ukraine. if we started from the beginning, the special military operation. so yes, it's very clear that uh, any uh, superior moral, superior or the, the west could ever climb. and that was always a dubious proposition. it can't claim it anymore. you know, it's a david, i had a look at, does zalinski speech in, in munich. and it will, it would be hilarious. larry said, we weren't so pathetic. is it? he was using talking points from the secretaries. they blank and you know,

the rules based order and i just thought, here's your cut. you have no freedom of speech in your country. you'll be political opposition. political parties are banned. you have this news telephone on propagandizing, you know, and can leave your country. i mean, what role space daughter is he talking about maybe the same rules based older that blinking things when he thinks of god. so i don't know, david, what do you think of yeah, i agree, i think uh, so the rules based order, you know, applies always to other countries. does apply us. uh, the us uh, you know, bobs interface countries as well. and i'm saying this is a picture of the american i love america, i think i think there's still hope for us to get back on track to establish peace with russia and do so in a, in a way that's a fair adjust. but, you know, i mean, examples of already be given 3 this uh, this conversation with uh, you know, they, uh, they know part of serbia. yeah. libya of course uh the us and the uh,

visions of iraq, afghanistan, which was partially justified iraq, which was not in syria as well. so, you know, we have a lot of examples of, of us behaving badly as a bully, a international bullying and doing so unprovoked, an unjustified in the case of ukraine. yes, it was an illegal invasion, but it was very much for me, but they couldn't have been more for books. and uh, you know, words stroke for a peaceful diplomatic solution for at least 14, perhaps 15 years prior to the, to the war could've been, weren't clear, beginning with the speech at the meeting security conference in 2007. so i responded to the bushes, threat to, to add the grading in georgia and, and data. and it was uh, you know, i mean again doing so was completely, it gives us national security interest, but it was all about expanding america's uh, liberal empire as, as uh, center, josh raleigh, bradley calls it a try to expand our sphere of influence, right up to russia's entire western frontier,

and that would be unacceptable from it. you know, we need to have more strategic empathy with russia if the united states really interesting people like ourselves, our, our patriotism is question, you know, okay, i, i am a conservative and i think for, and more support interventions or it is not a conservative idea. okay. it's the, it's these liberal a leads. okay. it's really interesting. people like victoria new and she consult between republican and democrats or white easily because she's a neil con. okay. they have their own set of values, and it's not the rules based order that i would understand as a conservative. you know, carl, it's, i've always thought that this ridiculous expansion of nato was a to undermined russia, obviously to throw it out of completely out of europe. i need the sanctions. i'm actually for because it's help the rest is economy and is in there and the soviet union was our talk it any way. okay. so is russian knows how to adapt here, but the real, the real aim of course, is

a challenge. china and so there are ridiculous child like a calculation was we knocked out rush and then we take on china. i mean with that kind of calculus, i thought, you know, they, they were the adults in the room. carl is, there is no a 1000 the people in washington all the care about the short term, short term self interest, which is continued to feed the tried off of the military industrial complex. i'm given uh, even though sanchez pointed out back in 2011. you set up the goal is to use of the dentist on to watch money out of the tax space of the us and europe draft and it's not a back into the hands of trans national security means the goal is an endless war, not is successful awards so this goes back to what you're saying about quick, you know, big there. at this point, they probably don't even care you think when you, craig, as long as they can keep you the proxy word against russia, to quote unquote lead russia at the same time defeat the military industrial

complex back at home. yeah, you know dan, thinking about ending this, this is what me is really kind of problem matic because it's already been mentioned around this program. the men's got a process which the west was deceitful about. we had this them bull again, the seat, and i don't see any kind of real agreement to end. it will end on russia's terms at the end of the day, because you can't make an agreement with these people. they lie and they break their agreements. they even are open about it. damn. yeah, well, it's all very true. and also we have to remember that this could have been ended in march of 2022 with an agreement that the landscape was, was willing, decided to sign in, which would allow the ukraine to keyboards territory. really. okay. i didn't know tan, let me add to that. okay. they were asking zalinski to agree to something, but he didn't even have any more. the don bass, they were just saying you have to give up the don bass and cry me something ukraine

didn't even have at the time. that's how good of a deal. it was. then it was a good deal in the us and u. k. intervene to stop that agreement from going forward, essentially of russia was offering a do over for the west and they didn't take it. and now ukraine will not exist as it has, it will, they will not get at least the 4 republicans that have voted to go with russia. they will never get those back. and that is firmly on the heads of the leaders of the us. well, i think, you know, it ending the program that's going to have to be named the country. um, um ben data. stan, okay, because it's going to be the european union that is going to have to take care of a it's going to be a ward, it'll be a state lit, they will have to be supported or a gentleman that's all the time we have a one, i think my g as in bali, pittsburgh and, and set salt lake city. and of course, what i think our viewers for watching us here are the see you next time and remember prospect rules

the the, [000:00:00;00] the motion of the nuclear above seeing the muscles. if you look on the initial do want to clump significantly post on zillow, while it be almost getting used to put value. what do you do?

origin. but y'all tested was done the newest 3 on the belief systems to good. you do what i see these the buses. the little gear limitation says this done both the breaking news on our to international russian forces. take the vintage of green key in the eastern, cast, sunbridge and warning. graphic images, i have the dead bodies of ukrainian soldiers scratches across the street sylva dave and in an hour t experience save our team follows the russian troops that claimed to achieve victory in dumbass season. the ukrainian stronghold of f d f with p of losing 2400. the printing soldiers over 2 days of retreat. pressure of defensive in his distresses that russia has no intention of deploying