the, the well, those are the main stories this. how do you, how it was all calm or social media pages from all of the discounts on the back again. uh the, the, the, [000:00:00;00] the, [000:00:00;00] the hello and welcome to cross stock. were all things are considered non peter lavelle,

american investor, david sax as to ukraine complex is based on paul search and to see about how it started and how it's going and how it will head on this edition of the programs we examine all 3 propositions. the cross section ukraine, i'm joined by my guess and colic in pittsburgh. he is a professor of law, an author of the plot to escape code russia in salt lake city. we have david pine. he is deputy director of national operations for the task force on national and homeland security and invalid. we cross the carlos out. he is a political analyst. his story and, and host of the silk and steel podcasts are gentlemen across stock roads in effect, that means you can jump any time we want. and i always appreciate it. i'm going to go 1st, the dan, i mean, i really like how do, uh, the, the invest investor sacks of broken down into 3 parts. so let's look at the 1st one

. how did the complex start and ukraine? because he's saying that western media is preventing allies false hood and defeat. go ahead, den. yeah. well 1st of all, as you know, i've been to the don bass twice in the last year. and really a lot of it centers around there that the, the conflict really began in 2014, with the 2 against a democratically elected government and tia but crew that the us back. right. when government came to power, which is very hostile towards its russian, ethnic and speaking populations, particularly in the east, particularly in the dawn bass. and when the dog bass did, that's good lou hobbs became alarmed about where the country was headed. they declared their independence of from t a with the referendum and ts began to shell an attack. yeah,

but the day and i thought i thought it all started one morning in february of 2022 . the rush is suddenly attacked. you crate. that's the narrative. that we get in the west there, but it's a not a true narrative already by then 14000 people had died in that conflict between t evan and the dog bass and rushes. intelligence was that uh, a key of was preparing for an invasion. uh, a ground invasion of, of the dom bass and a russian decided it could not allow that. okay, wait, wait, i have that from me. oh, i see. you don't even need that from a residence or is this a david in salt lake city? i mean, when we, when we look at the origins of the complex, very little a said about how the ukranian military had been nato allies, where you had a nato advisors recognizance. i mean, everything you need for more modern army was being pumped in there at a furious rate that's never mentioned in the narrative visit david, you know,

it's not we had about $1000.00 data troops including, you know, of course, the south county c. i a operatives training and the pre military. we were training at the rate of $10000.00 a year. we had 80000 ser anita for in the troops and you the crating army that the forms kind of the lead forces of uh, the deeper in for me and uh uh we were, we got joint military exercises with uh, between nato and ukraine inside of ukraine and western new brain. and uh, and then finally we had a uh bite and signed a, a squeegee, strategic partnership agreement between us and, and ukraine. which of course was able to guess russian and all these were a necessary publications. as was just stated in this, possibly really again, with the, the 2014 coo, that was authorized by a dead vice president by a binding really is the common denominator in is starting this war. and that's why

a long been referred to this war as binds were, rather include as well. and it'd be part ways the made it before. it was by the way that it was mix for it was victoria newlands war. i told i kept calling it back in 2014 with carl and involving another issue that is not mentioned it is that in this, in december 2021. before the conflict in february 2022, russia basically sent out its terms saying we, we want to avoid a conflict here, but we will react to military and technical re means. and that was completely ignored. again, not part of the narrative. carl, it exactly is like, uh, this is bored and pointed out during his tucker crossing interview. grandma harris actually went to europe and said, hopefully get dallas that ukraine should be walk them into natal. i mean, the 2017 is when the work broke out, but it's really

a cumulation of the study nato expansion use words since 1992, which is really, i mean it's, it's the whole purpose was to justify the continue existence and beta optical. busy you know, made, it was formed against soviet union, so union collapsed. russian wanted to be friends with the west, but all the nato bureaucrats realize, wait a minute, they're going to be out of jobs. so it's all about jobs is all about jobs, and it's about money and, and hubris. so i would say, okay, then let's take a look at the 2nd question. how is the war going? well, according to the munich security conference, it ended up last week. so everything is basically on court. it's a, it's tough, you know, tough times ahead and all that. but russia is losing ukraine is winning again. what's wrong with that narrative, dan? yeah, no rush, it has steadily gain ground in this war very methodically and slowly, but that's their strategy. i mean they like israel and gaza rush is actually taking

great pains not to destroy a civilian infrastructure and kills civilians. and so they have slowly but surely gained a regions in the eastern ukraine, and they have widowed away at the ukraine, you know, army, to the point where, frankly, you know, as we know, ukraine's been forced to now can script people off the street, elderly people, and disabled people because they have no one else left by and um, you know, they're always on the verge of being out of munitions as well. even the west nato was running out of munitions because of this war rush i, i think, is, it could be said to be handily winning this war. it could when it overnight, if it wanted to. again, if it wanted the carpet bomb key of like again the u. s. and 8 or willing to carpet bomb, you know, survey or whatever. they could do that, but they don't, you know, dan, but it's really interesting is that zalinski and he's

a jet set or he gets the fly all over the place of these fancy conferences, but they are poor. it is still open in care of has been during the entire conflict . it hasn't been bombed. okay. and this is something that has ever pointed out it, you know, david, what's really interesting, again, mentioning the munich security conferences, that according to zelinski, they're, they, they're, that they're facing challenges because of the republicans in the house of representatives that watch with you. you know, it does. the um, certainly is the us as uh, primarily responsible for prolonging this were uh there was as far as the a simple piece agreement which was 90 percent complete as president clinton dot line to reduce dr. crossing interview. and then it was a, you know, this, this was a very favorable agreement towards a towards you pray. what does that entail the entire winter. all russian forces outside of the don boston, crimea. premier of course, really was always russian. but the dog boss was much disputed and you know,

this was a, this was actually really the ideal argument. this is kind of the that was the piece agreement, essentially that i would argue that biden's trying to get back to that, but he wouldn't be too asleep project. and so he to repeat of that be prior to that, you know, somebody gets agreements that was really an ideal that uh, a free brain that, that was happening. now of course, it's in arms disagreements and obviously security meant that, that i called for back in september of 2022 in the national interest. you know, my own real worth of stack. and you know, that is, that is really the key, that is the key to, you know, a piece of it is an instance without pictures a, you know, you pray or you prank and smoothness victory. nato can spin victory. of course, it's more of a victory for russia overall, but it's uh, it would be 18 percent of your grades that are actually recognized territory in neutrality,

outside of nato. and those would be the 2 main terms. and most of those terms are, you know, obviously, neutrality. yes, i mean, it was something that's uh, so lensky belatedly agreed to the day after the invasion. so yeah, no, yeah, it's all, it's all matters coming, coming back to common sense and us down to peace and stability for the region. unfortunately, we're not there yet. we won't be for a long time. you know, carol, what we have here is that i think we've had over the last few weeks and ritual countries like germany, france, the u. k. signing security agreements with ukraine. i don't know why they're doing it in the middle of a conflict. they don't know what we crane, they're actually talking about. and this is, you know, and on top of it, instead of trying to secure as much funding as they can from the west. nobody is talking piece, at least in the west. nobody in nato is coughing piece. that is the biggest problem here. exactly. i mean,

the problem is not funded. the united states can pres money up to the was used for the problem is us. and to a certain extent, europe has been sold to industrialize that they can not even provide artillery shells for your credit. you know, united states have over the altogether, dear trillion dollars the military budget. and yet, it can change even produce strawman military goods that needed to win worse as light artillery shops, russia alone is all producing the desired made. will country combine right now? the ukraine is, i mean the objective observer of the conflict will tell you your brain is losing away. busy it's more hours class and it's manpower is being depleted now they're talking about sending refugee ukrainian mass phone back to europe to, to, to be drafted. and they're talking about scripting women. i mean, how much, how could you create when there's no tactful victory for ukraine at this point? well, i mean, but, but they seem to think, um,

the people and nato world think that, you know, 60000000000 dollars. well, they'll be there just around the corner. i cannot conceive dan, real quick, i can't even, even if they got the money, what did they go to do with it? they? yeah, again, they don't have the troops anymore in the, in the morales thinking, i mean, i think, honestly this war will be over. i'm predicting by the end of the summer whether they send the $60000000000.00 or they go, well, yeah, i mean, but of course this is supposed to be money that will go into potentially the next administration. so they, what, it seems to me, the arms dealers and all the a cut out to the n v o's. they want a secured of funding into 2025. they think that's what it seems more about. always gentlemen, it's never really about ukraine, is it? it's all about the money. it's all about the grip or a gentleman. i'm going to jump in here. we're going to go and go to a short break. and after that short break,

we'll continue our discussion on ukraine. stay with our team. the the at the end of the 18th century great britain began to conquer and colonize australia. from the very beginning of the british penetration to the continent, natives were subjected to severe violence and deliberate extra patient. according to modern historians, in the 1st 140 years,

there were at least 270 massacres of local b. both any resistance to the british was answered with double cruelty. hundreds of natives were killed for the murder of one settler. indigenous australians were not considered complete people. no wild beast of the forest was ever hunted down with such unsparing perseverance as they are. men, women, and children are shot when ever they can be met with squatter. henry myrick wrote in a letter to his family in england, in 1846 postrel years past these, rightly described as blood. so in races, if at the beginning of colonization, there were one and a half 1000000 indigenous people living on the continent, then by the beginning of the 20th century, their number had degrees still 100000 people. despite the indisputable historical facts, the problem of full recognition of the crimes of white australians against aborigines

has not been resolved so far. we are in moscow standing in front of one of russia's most iconic symbols in bodies, greece elegant articles. on a grandiose scale theater, the, the, the welcome back across stock were all things are considered on peter live l to mind you were discussing, you create the okay, let's go back to david in salt lake city a. let's go to the 3rd proposition,

how the war will and well, it's really difficult to grapple with this one. because if you look at the official narrative rush, i lost a half a year ago, but they're still looking for money to keep ukraine propped up. i mean, they can't even get that talking point straight. they'll get rushes already lost. so ukraine is winning. i mean, and you, you know, when you a, with all the social media right now, these telegram channels here, it's really hard. i mean, if you have even a passing interest in, in the topic, it's quite obvious that this official narrative is know, and boy, david yes, absolutely, right. i mean, you create as lost nearly 30 percent of its g p. that was 27 percent of its population, 18 percent of its territory. they last uh, according to the most reasonable and moderate estimates of half a 1000000 troops debtor, seriously wounded, which is about 3 times higher than what rushes lost in rocky by a single square ridge, rough in territory. i mean,

there's literally no metrics that nato could use to, to judge that, uh, you agree is wayne, the war. and yeah, we can see it here. you know, here this, uh, this nonsense uh, i mean, uh, zalinski recently stated that the ukraine military consists of 600000 active duty trips. until recently it was 1300000. so it could, the casualties actually could be over 50 percent. it could be $700000.00 ukrainians, a killer seriously wanted. so it, this has been a disaster for you. creighton, i'm preparing to write a new article that's nearly completed, but it should be common knowledge it any unbiased observer that this has been a disaster. this whole of the sola, you pray, nato membership or sued has been really just irrational. it's been absolutely give us the address of the, of the previous in a very much. so it gives the us national security interest as well, which is peace with russia. and we ought to be a have a strategic partnership with rational along the lines of uh,

what was proposing to center uh by uh, the russian federation with their uh, mutual security agreement which was made which was very faint, which was absolutely acceptable. uh it as written and uh as well as the one that was offered us, which are 75 percent acceptable. yeah, and carl, what they did a because for, for russia, it has been day 2 expansion and even the head of nato salt and birds. he admitted this finally belatedly. uh, um, he wouldn't say it honestly for the uh, good part of the complex, but he came out and maybe it was unintended on his part. we don't know, but he even admitted a rush. it started, it's military operations because of nato expansion. so what did they do? they expand nato. i think be the thing you've already mentioned tucker carlson's interview with vladimir putin. and again, he was asked point blank uh, how would you like to see a ceasefire? would you like to see an end of this conflict? and the russian president said, yes, i can. okay, i mean, i don't know what else you can do. i mean,

the most watched interview in the world. if you have a passing interest in this, you know what russia's position is, b k because it came from the president, smiled himself. but that, of course, was ignored. carl, are exactly, it's brand new right now. it's still secure. the leading washington and europe, that's driving the war. you know, we know what happened during the negotiation to do that. the early phase of negotiation to the end, the war and horace johnson came in and tell them you cry. no, no, no, we will back you a 100 percent. and right out, even if the west to back ukraine, 100 percent, and ukraine still cannot achieve victory. as i said earlier, united states has been sold the industrialized, the cannot provide ukraine was the, did the munition it needs, was there a totally shout? you need us. can people trained money by profit or certain? boy, they're just papers. you know what,

you can set $60000000000.00 worth of paper to you credit. that's not going to help ukraine quote. uh, well, actually car only ends up mostly coming back to the suburbs in virginia. okay. at the end of the day, i mean it, it's a griff, it's a huge griffin. i think that's why a lot of these people are pushing the 6 me with billions because they know it's the last time they're going to be able to feed at the trough. okay, so they want to get paid in advance. okay. it's a is a cynical. yeah. but this whole idea, this whole complex is so cynical, it's the most avoided avoidable conflict in my lifetime. and i've seen a lot of conflicts. you know, dan, what's really interesting and we can throw in the, the gods a dimension here. and look at this kind of globally, is that you have the west on the wrong side of issues. okay. you have the united states in europe. so supporting a, a racist regime and in cab

a racist regime in israel and the whole world can see this dance to know it's absolutely right. i was just sending to george galloway this. busy morning and he said, you know, the west, the sun is now setting in the west and it is now rising in the east, which is very clear. as you say, the whole world sees the difference in how rusher prostitutes this war, new created. now israel prosecutes the war, guys a, i think this statistic i saw was that about less than $600.00 children have died in the special military operations in ukraine. meanwhile, you already have something like 15000 children who died in gaza and intentionally so it's a brutal, brutal campaign that's happening in gaza in a very short period of time. we also have to, you know, recognize as opposed to, you know,

we're now with 2 years in to the conflict and ukraine. if we started from the beginning, the special military operation. so yes, it's very clear that uh, any uh, superior moral, superior or the, the west could ever climb. and that was always a dubious proposition. it can't claim it anymore. you know, it's a david, i had a look at, does zalinski speech in, in munich. and it would be hilarious, hilarious, if it weren't so pathetic, is it he was using talking points from the secretaries. they blank and you know, the rules based order and i just thought, here's your account. you have no freedom of speech in your country. you'll be political opposition. political parties are banned. you have this news telephone on a propagandizing. you can no one can leave your country. i mean, what role is based on, or is he talking about maybe the same rules based old or the blinking things when he thinks of god? so i don't know, david, what do you think of yeah, i agree. i think uh, so the rules based order, you know, applies all way to other countries does apply for us. so the us uh, you know,

bobs and the base countries as well. and i'm saying this is a picture of the american. i love america. i think, i think there's still hope for us to get back on track, establish peace with russia and do so in a, in a way that's a fair adjust. but, you know, i mean, examples of already been given a 3 this uh, this conversation with uh, you know, they, uh, they know part of serbia. yeah. live. yeah. of course uh the us and they uh, visions of my rack, a guest in which was partially justifying iraq, which was not in, in syria as well. so we have a lot of examples of, of us behaving badly as a bully, a international bully and doing so unprovoked and unjustified in the case of ukraine. oh yes, it was an illegal invasion, but it was very much perhaps you couldn't have been work about. and put in, uh, you know, words stroke for a peaceful diplomatic solution for at least 14,

perhaps 15 years prior to the, to the war. couldn't have been, weren't clear, beginning with the speech just in minutes. security conference in 2007. so responded to the bushes, threat to, to add the grading in georgia in the data. and it was, uh, you know, i mean, again, doing so was completely, it gives us national security interest. but it was all about expanding america's liberal empire as, as, as in or josh raleigh, bradley calls it a try to expand or a sphere of influence relative to russia's entire western frontier. and that would be unacceptable from it. you know, we need to have more strategic empathy with russia if the united states really interesting people like ourselves, our, our patriotism is question, you know, okay, i am a conservative and i think for and more support interventions or it is not a conservative idea. okay. it's a b, it's these liberal a leads. okay. it's really interesting. people like victoria new and taking slow between republican and democrats or white easily because he's a neil con. okay. they have their own set of values,

and it's not the rules based order that i would understand as a conservative. you know, carl, it's, i've always thought that this ridiculous expansion of nato was a to undermine russia, obviously, to throw it out of completely out of europe. i need the sanctions. i'm actually for because it's help the rest is economy and is in the, in the soviet union was our talk it anyway. okay. so is russia knows how to adapt here. but the real, the real aim of course, is a tough challenge. china and so there was ridiculous child like a calculation was we knock out rush and then we take on china. i mean with that kind of calculus. so i thought, you know, they, they were the adults in the room. carl, it is, there is no a 1000 the people in washington all the care about the short term, short term self interest, which is continued to feed the trauma, better the military industrial complex. i'm given uh,

even though sanchez pointed out back in 2011 and you set up the goal is to use of the dentist on 2 watched money out of the tax base of the us and europe draft and it's not a back into the hands of trans national security leave, the goal is an endless war, not as successful awards. so this goes back to what you're saying about quick, you know, big there. at this point. they probably don't even care you things when you create, as long as they can keep you the proxy where it is russia to quote unquote lead rock shot at the same time to beat the military industrial complex back at all. yeah, you know, 10 thinking about ending this, this is what is really kind of problem magic because it's already been mentioned around this program. the men's got a process which the west was deceitful about. we had, is them bull again the seat, and i don't see any kind of real agreement to end it. it will end on russia's terms at the end of the day, because you can't make an agreement with these people. they lie and they break their agreements. they even are open about it. damn. yeah, well,

it's all very true. and also we have to remember that this could have been ended in march of 2022 with an agreement that zillow sky was, was willing, decided to sign in, which would allow that ukraine to keyboards, territory ro, hey, i didn't know tan, let me add to that, okay, they were asking zalinski to agree to something that he didn't even have anymore the don bass. they were just saying you have to give up the don bass and cry me something ukraine didn't even have at the time. that's how good of a deal it was. then it was a good deal in the us and u. k. intervene to stop that agreement from going forward. essentially, russia was offering a do over for the west and they didn't take it. and now ukraine will not exist as, as it has, it will, they will not get at least the, for a public set of body to go with russia. they will never get those back. and that is

firmly on the heads of the leaders of the us. well, i think, you know, ending the program is going to have to be named the country um ben data stand. okay, because it's going to be the european union that is going to have to take care of a, it's going to be a war and it will be a fit state lit that will have to be supported or a gentleman that's all the time we have a one, i think my guess in bali, pittsburgh and, and such as salt lake city. and of course, i want to thank our viewers for watching us here are the see you next time and remember prospect rules the, [000:00:00;00]

the boss can do i but to speak with key at the washington state. but most of the guys has to phone us and give you 2 professional that video to prep the list of all of a huge what they use for level

the the, the the obsessing images from jobs where the bodies of victims have been recovered from a comp allegedly hit the button is rarely strike while back in the us. a congress one makes us talking statements about palestinian children the think which is the final day of joining us on. just a legal bustle against extradition to the us reps up with no decision and no