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the the hello and welcome to was a part of a single jazz is a tragedy. a 1000000 deaths are statistics. while the also shape of this aphorism is still debated, it does reflect accurately the desensitizing effect of mass violence has on the human side. can the bigger or longer the suffering, the hotter it is to relate to it. on the personal level,

the case in point is the palace team in question on the results for over 17 years and still in many, many thousands of depth. what is there to the palace? thing is, story beyond the mounting desktops and customary international inaction will discuss that. i'm now joined by jamal, conch, years based engineering and officer of children of catastrophe, journey from a palestinian refugee camp to america. mr. crunch. it's a pleasure to talk to thank you very much. for your time. likewise, thank you. now your life story is pretty spectacular. being born in the refuge account with no or little rights civil rights, and then moving across the world, getting a good education pursuing and engineering career. discussing your life story on television. now, do you consider yourself exceptionally lucky because i assume this is not a typical faith for a kid born in their refuge account. you know,

i honestly wouldn't consider myself exceptional because it is this type zillow. people who are born on and, and they have cost and you know, the future you can spend really, if you're familiar with i'm so the longer with the palestinian story and growing up and appreciate camps i haven't been administered by under well, which is now. and then use that, i hopefully would be able to address some of those issues that are related to today's in yours, under what is the best school system in the accounts and basically produce that i would say one of the most highly educated jeanette ation from those 50 g cabs, i was quoted, you know, they created asian that ation out the pitch as of catastrophe. and i was lucky and it would be more than that exceptional. i was lucky to be in a position that i place possibly that i had time to be able to pursue my education

beyond the basic education provided. but i know that was speaking about the refugee camps and you were born and raised in the not of and by that posting and the rest of your camp, i hope i pronounced that correctly. it was in the bundle on and you made some very astute observations in your book about how this comes time to structure with themselves as a sort of to produce a sort of replica of themselves everywhere. the palestinians settled collectively preserving the social and their times even geographical fabric as much as possible . and i think this is one of the major reasons why the palestinian identity has been able to preserve and solve despite all the you know, displacement and see through the decades. can you talk more about that? because it basically became, i call it, it looked at the palace fun and live as a to i grew up in live in another my young life until i went to college in the states. but i would say that the camp was what as far as i'm concerned,

is liquid palestine. and we've been driven on and i never told i wasn't living on i oldest. so that was kind of fun. but we've been living on the account was divided like you said, you know, immediately as the they with this place or expelled from their homes. basically they can buy, you can see the patient behind me that the was be fast. uh, one of the 1st pictures of the 1950s when the camp was established and it was the best as as tense as you could see it. but it can, it just, it seemed like it tended the villages with it from palestine. so when you look at the car, it was divided between different villages. i became very familiar with the villages the pallet spun without the study in history. i mean, it wasn't something that happened naturally. was there some design to it? yeah, i actually a big because it was like

a familial goal. your family has moved on together. so it's family or other tabs on a fence from the same village. basically they went on and set an in an area within the camp. and as an attempt to develop the, you know, beyond the, the tents that you can see behind me. and they also start developing villages wise . so the cat was, you know, i mean, we are from the north palestine part of the 19 for to. and you could look on was on find almost all that village is from 19 for to divided with them that cab each one and the own small section i visited. but just the story of not as bad as come. uh, but it is the story of also all the other if he can split it, say live and i know to see it in a in jordan as i was reading about your story. it also occurred to me that this lack or you know, limit that drives that the palestinians had in those kinds of

b as in syria or 11 on how the silver lining uh, ironically saw it to keep them sort of together to preserve them together as, as as a collective may be in uh, in the, in the adapt desperate, but still keeping them together. am i right to conclude that? yeah, you're very right and actually that's what i said at the beginning. i felt i was in the lifted palestine. we've been living on because exactly of those conditions that were created around us. i mean there was some law somebody galatians, i mean don't get me wrong. i mean, the host comes as they did their best to have committed palestinians and the needs . but still, we were limited or i, but it's it to be able to work and function outside the camps. it was very limited because became basically, i would say, a source of cheap labor for farm farms and construction workers within, within lebanon. but it was very difficult and challenging for palestinians to be

able to work and, and then have professional jobs like engineering law, the teaching and things of that nature. now i know it's a very hard question to answer, but what is palestinian identity at this point? i mean, is there a space for anything beyond resistance, resentment, or revenge? you know, i, i would define the spinning identity basically the color. so i get it for all the palestinians. i mean, i feel, you know, or have an affinity to, to like, my fellow palestinians and then, but if he caps because of the way we live in that it gets to because we share the same level of suffering. so we basically, i feel like we're all enjoying life together and i says that's what really, what really brought us to good that. and then of course after that, and it developed within more, i would say political conscious level. and that's including the, the, the,

on the resistance of the past 10 years, which was basically the, presented by the palestine evaluation organization. this is actually why and you, i'm getting me a perfectly. so my next question, because i know the appear join the palestinian, elaborate liberation organization of the tender age of 11. and that's about the age of my son who's still sleep some of his toys and plays with plastic swords. but he is nowhere mature enough to understand the intricacies of policy or history. let alone the use of militant tactics. did you understand what you were getting yourself into that age? yeah, you know, it is natural. i think it is a pretty good. i mean, nobody told me not. i mean my dad, my mom, they never told me that i need to do that or time. and honestly, i, when i put the book together, when i was typing that i was looking at my kid, my tip was above that is on a sudden my god, i cannot believe i did what i did. you know, because of exactly what you,

what you just said about your on the, you know, it killed it. but yeah, i mean, i really want it, i, i, i joined a group of other kids about the same age basically. when we didn't know if some of the account, because at that time, by the way it was illegal to join the the policy and you started with a live on. so we basically have to run away from the syria at the show in the cam. i mean, in the military they can do to get training. and i, i must say i was the support. the mean i love, it's been back in the book when one day dejected us for a because of all our age basically there. well, our dogs go back to school and i think maybe that's what really made me more determined than that. i should maybe go back to school if, if i thought told me that i need to go back to school, then maybe i'd have more likely to get to palestine in

a different way. how do you think contemporary palestinian teenagers, especially in those living and gaza? how are they different from what you were like at the age? i honestly don't think the much the and by the way i didn't think goes up what are but 67 months back in 1997 looked in 98. and i have visited also the featured camp that which basically i felt i was home. the only place i felt i was home is when i went into a cabinet that if you take up and goes up because it was the empty cup of my god as if it was designed by the same it, the architect basically. and it children grow in and goes i then in the same way i grew up and i feel it today. and i look at the children today and gaza as a this is the genocide. i feel like i would have been there in the same age. i went back to the same way that acting basically

a little more mature then then the to the that it is anywhere in the world. and there is thing the access, for example to education. you mentioned the, you're an agency responsible for providing a to the palestinians. it's funding has been suspended as far as i'm just done by western countries. do you think, you know, contemporary children have the same access to the basic services as you have? because from the story and you're describing in the book and it looks like you know, that, that lives should be a much more challenging than yours for the, you know, it's a lot more challenging today. i mean, you have to remember even i never was uh, united nation, the final work agency for ballast. and that if he is, that was a separate established in 1950. it had this not even a level of funding at that time. i mean, at the time when i grew up in the cab, i must say that they were able to provide

a lot more services then they do now today because of the cuts. i mean, i know i basically today i would have to say i open aides on the, you know, very minimal budget as if we could cut his into what they used to have. and that of course is going to effect the children and goes on and they really weird in and by the way i know um and it is just about 50 pounds less than that if he comes through uh the age of. but now the thing on does uh, an end for children today, i would say beside love being able to provide them with the level of education. i mean, you know, look up the war today. i'm doing that, but the schools are being targeted by is a forces because they really don't want to have support to dictate children here. i, if you allow me to mention, there was a, a study report that was prepared by that as a most, a, a,

a foot and affairs back in line in the aftermath in 4 to 8 and, and basically said, well, you know, all these palestinians are the best is going to be survive the initial process, and that would be, uh, it would join the poor us or the board and up into you and the police. that's exactly the vision of design this. oh, and after 1948, and this is exactly what they are, the one in gaza. now, mr. country, we have to take a short break right now, but we will be back in just a few moments. stay tuned or the

the, [000:00:00;00] the welcome back to hundreds of parts, vince and jamal, conch, years based engineer and also are all the children of catastrophe, journey from

a palestinian refuge account to america. now let's talk about the contemporary politics because you have argued that is rarely prime minister benjamin netanyahu really wants to wake up to the news that the is really hostages have been killed so that he can pursue this conflict more aggressively. how far do you think could you go? because the judging from the video is coming from guys of the level of aggression is already pretty maximal. you know, it is going to much similar as it as much as he could, to be honest with you, with the guy. i mean, nothing. you know, as far as him for his political, political, life, and personal life and political life medium to stay in as a prime minister. and he would be able to stay, potentially, or likely as a prime minister for as long as the work continues. and of course, also from the personal level, the continuation of what it would help him avoid the criminal convictions and quotes. and those are the course and that he has gone to

a point know what he has achieved. the 20 percent or more than 20 percent of what did you want to do is basically having all the is about you the captives a till. and then he had me on the back lot of just a day that they have killed the around i believe it's 505152. and that's because of band aids. i mean, they, they, on it, i would say a natural target when, when they are targeting the palestinians blindly everywhere, whether they are in schools at hospitals and also introspection systems. so they aren't going to be di and i wouldn't be surprised. i mean, the guy is fighting for his life anymore. beautiful. continue until the last minute until unless somebody touches with him to, to him. and that within the, within those aisles of course, and of course, from outside. but the, but as long does, i really get, provides them with the protection that he needs or, or,

or provide his program genocide program with the protection to proceed. i really don't have much hope to be honest with now, i don't mean to, i'm drawing a historical parallels, but i think it's worth mentioning here that some historians believed that the reason, the main reason why germany was on the losing side in both world wars, was because its leadership decided to pursue it through military means certain targets that cannot be achieved through military means. for example, they were trying to get more territory or what they called the labor ins room in austin, the living space in the east while also clearing that potential living space from the large number of indigenous people. now, um, from the logistical point of view of putting aside all the morality from a logistical point of view, do you think is a real as

a stave can solve what it sees as the palestinian problem through military means it's, it's impossible. it's a, you know, oh is it there is no, it has not been happened in history. let's put it this way. i mean, if you look at it, when i look at the precedence that has not been about been an occupation when it maintained its presence for ever meaning for as long as palestinians exist about has been the exist. whether in that, if he comes and goes out in the cities of gaza, and if it's a copy of an outside guys, i mean our presence, we'd be there and is the 30 millions would love to be able to squash the palestinian and demand for their lives to go back to their homes and also to, to, to, to establish their own independence. they, uh, there is a sense of auto ghost and this is a really important what you just said. where you would compare to have his that except competitive between that and the nazi because that i see you know,

where they had that put together outcomes where they want to be able to establish their own area and unique res, over the peons. uh, it would appear in codes as you said it was and it's exactly what, what the who believes and he will. he really believes that in his vision that he would be able to dominate the whole reason for the power. and i did it, like i said they us thrive that investment. they've tried that in, in, uh, and i've gone a sub and they the, you know, this is to do exactly the same thing and they wouldn't have the same. and now i, i also heard you saying that you believe with me is that the palestinians are now being sacrificed by the west because the once wants to atone for it's the end of ignoring the addition when i zation of the jews in europe in the past even though it were, it were not only the jews who were to humanize, but um, they sort of idea suggest that there is um, and i'll send, take sensitivity or,

or intolerance in the west towards different when i zation. is that really the case when we look at the ways the united states or it's alice half what the recent pores, you know, it is very, very yeah, that's pretty important. i, i do really, really bad. and then this is, you know, how this could be a little discussion as far as the dehumanization of the jews and the time to make up for what's happened to the jews. and you are by that and utilize it wasn't just the jews but, but as an automatic identity, i suppose uh, because of what they chapman's the, you know, the that actually to the joys in gen money and then they have an ad. but in a conference, i think it is a sense, so you know, i told him of this sense of guilt that is set of pass and this is the problem in it said passing the, the, the, the, the, their own and humanity. when that it was forget about the now the oppression and

the genocide that this taken place to all those by the victims of the crimes. and then this is the, the, the, the costs of the problem. they are going to try to do it for as much as they can, but it to be just a point where they cannot do it anymore. and it is much more clear today. and guys, as they start taking a different position than what they did, even though you remember they have a loading of one after another to follow. and by then to go to this uh, uh, and nothing else. she's in an install ability. what, what as a, basically what they did, they enabled him to do what he is the one, whether they like it or not. they are the ones who really enabled nothing. yeah. who to commit genocide and gaza today. now speaking on this issue offer, i sort of atonement guilt. i recently came across a very point in closed by the martin e can put

a mess as our who said back in 1955 a decade after the end of the world war 2. that was immoral european cannot forgive to hibler is not the crime itself. the crime against man, not the humiliation of man is such it is the crime against the wise man. and the fact that he hibler applied to your, of the colonies procedures, which until down had been reserved, exclusively for the arabs in old jerry, the cool is in india. do you think this division into higher and lower humans still exist in how western morality assessed as various conflicts? so much so, so much so, i mean, the, the worst looks at the number listed on coach sounds basically, or the developing countries, basically as less than a human being. and that is obvious today in the way they covered been use and

palestine. i mean, i, you know, i like anybody else, i watch all the madness the news media in the west. and it is the one sided to complete the one sided and as if the other side does not have venue. when they went on, as an aide is killed, they might have sent them by name. and even the one that is and is the only claim that the schools they present it as it is true, one of and i actually and, and, and that's a god. i o was say, the man and been between court and court free. mean. yeah. because it does, it really man is the media in the was in other places they the width would be caught in that sense of shape, but in going they do it themselves. it's just manage and they want to be able to uh, you know, present one side, but then the other, it is so much so that you know, 27 or 28000 palestinian did is, is not even equal to uh, you know, about 1200 is the unit killed, you know,

it had never happened in history. they were, they u. s. media had accepted to allow another country to not allow it to go inside to cover that. but the events, i mean they are lucky even the lower in america has to go inside goes the unless the ad and but did the with the as an i the army. so the kid basically spoke pessimist with as i e r. mr. con to i heard you a quote and is really right or before who wrote that every person lives in a place but with the palestinians. the place lives in them. and i think the same, couldn't decide about the jews too, because if we look at the jewish history of eric painful injurious history in the 19th or the 20th century, many of the horrible things that were down to, to the jews now being done by these really stave to the palestinians. i wonder if

you have any ideas of how this vicious circle of collective violence of collective punishment could this talk. you know, i was a look at it. it's is, it's almost like, i don't want to compare it to animals because always be in the human to do that. but, but it is, it becomes a lot of survival. and that's a said, i mean, and that's the to, if i do believe the jews were oppressed in the west, and i do believe that they were targeted as a, as a group and, and then political science and came and basically it didn't present to the vision i would say over the oppression whereby they believe that the only way they could survive by positive, do oppressing on other people by doing it exactly to the other people. what had done to, to that it was. and that is the, the, the, the problem with political silence in which it creates a divide. there is one, a very important distinction, is that the use in your a for defense less. i mean,

they didn't have the means to defend themselves, but the is rarely state is not defenseless and supported by very might the military's of, of the world. so they can find the solutions, diplomatic, military, and whatever economic solutions if they want to. they have the means of doing that . it will it the end of the that's the issue the, the political solution being acknowledged in the presence of the palestinians. i do not have to remember what is what is referred to. palestinians always refer to them . the ed ups as if somebody came from someone else and came to a palace like they don't even a tamale's, their word, palestinians, for palestinians who remained even in palestine after 1940. and they still call them, you know, ups as of this and out of my know that it's not a lot of minority is their national minority. and they are the palestinians. and this is, this is again, the crux of the they, they put the political zionism,

they have to deny the existence of the palace thing is to be able to justify the process on the land a to as also you remember, i am sure they have a more daughter, that is saying that it lands with that people for people with that bad. i mean, i, i tell i didn't even believe that they would be able to already do that. and even the lord would accept it as, as, as he ality went, palestine was the, the, the theatre all many and babies, and 16, at least 16 in pars, or the empires occupied palace done to throw out history all the way through the to say it's the all the way through words, $11.00 word or 2 and, and then they would come and say, or to land with that i, people, and it is legally in 3rd tend and that was the side, the effects up to even in the was and it wouldn't go through a lot of people, it was existence. then you are able to justify your oppression. i guess those who do not even exist pop. so that's why i don't really agree with your point about that, but i'm trying to atone for the,

for the has some so some moral soon. because clearly they're not seeing it as a sin. and if you look at the, the pulses historically it is a tried and test of practice, but mr. country have to leave it there for a time constraints, but it's been great talking to you. thank you very much for that. likewise, thank you. i need to proceed to have and talk in about this important subject.

thank you. and thank you for watching hope to share again. one of all the parts the the western media i suppose is washington's by assistance to ukraine over the past decade. as a new york times publish a report revealing data on the secret c i, a basis near roches, portez cross, and 4th is vacant now the front line town on the battlefields following this week's capital of, of the, of costs. now it's pushing you create inside the bank and the costs and region, the chat and full freedom support as of july, the songs outside the u. k. hi cortez's legal team. make a final effort to stop the what's the,