a lot of them. so this is one of the reasons this country is last. let me put, you know, the, the size of a, like a even. and the good thing is also think there's a lot, a lot of good our, the bad people can be blind. people can be given a wrong information, but you know, in the end, this is a 210 countries together. well, yes. and such a big organization is happening. uh, i don't know which place that one rains and this time because there's no place to sit down so. so yes, good things are happening. and this is the eye opening for the whole was. they let this we, as a families should be, is one most often is not about salt. all he's for, right. he's the whole was as a one big family very all together. and that's the update this our most stories come me a way of the top of the hour. i'll see you again the

the time action or time. see welcome back to going underground rule. got to go around the world for the you a today nature nation subject or to tell the terry and propaganda and then media back genocide in gaza. and today sweden implicated at the persecution of wick unique's. is julian massage, as well as being supplier of kenning, machines to israel, looks at to join nato. this is the usa is defeated its proxy war with russia through cream, and the dollar loses its place. has the currency of choice in global transactions charging how ukraine became the decisive beginning of the end of us empires.

professor glen decent, he's editor of the rusher and global of has generally his new book, the ukraine, more in the region. well, the illuminates the, the full lies and deceit of successive us and us proxy western european nations. he joins me now from all his level in no way. thank you so much reservation for coming on. so i said 2 events today, uh, which uh, of our emblematic of teams, really in your must read new book. i mean, it's quite an amazing summary of 500 years of a new, a liberal history hungry is voted on sweden joining nature. will court hearings when they do armed israel, genocide, activities, and guys in jerusalem. what is just those 2 events signify in terms of the panorama that you explain in your new book? so those 2 events where the while are very significant, i guess the 1st will be the collapse of neutrality in europe. and again, during the cold war we had a neutral belts going through the continent to give some strategic distance between

the 2 rivals. and again, this also not to as a favor to moscow, this was seen as being in the national interest. now we see states abandoning this largely without debate and without clear reasoning, why successful initiative, impulsive neutrality, is replaced with extending a direct front line. and of course, it's a, the problems and also it has been come quite a stain on the west as well. and because i think you around the world, there's a lot of decline in the legitimacy, which is of course, the key feature of the world order the legitimacy effectively to rule them, to make up rules and implement those rules. and the, the legitimacy of the west is declining us. you know, everyone more or less recognizes the genocide, but there's still direct support for it. so it's quite a, quite a dramatic. yeah. yeah. time we're living except but as the world is clearly

opposed to washington, u. u. k. policy. as regards palestine, many of those is a poor developed indian rights do not appear to understand ukraine the way you detail in, in the new book. i mean, russia just being victorious in that of do you have and today zalinski is saying, today's the day of resistance against crime. yeah. or whatever. it's called the according to ukraine. why do you think they, they don't see the european union countries of some elements, even in the global south and understand that ukraine is your detail. again, in the game is of the case really of a major back genocide in eastern ukraine. the restroom is going to defend the people in, in east and ukraine and as the fact that the ukraine is kind of an echo of yugoslavia which you, most the nato countries in west and you are a bit torrent school. how do you just love you? it was a great freedom fight by nato countries and not as you explain in the book completely

legal. are there any facets of international law as was then, as well to some extent, i argue it's also declined of diplomacy, and this has been one of the cases argument polarity you, you, if, if you don't think you have any opponent, students never need recess to negotiate also, the whole idea of harmonizing and finding mutual interest is abundant, then does with e mail diploma to take some larger latest pedagogy going it function in which the rest as a teacher and others to students. so, and the student is intimate compromised with it's to socialize, and if it doesn't allow itself to socialize the death to be contained or confronted . so there is to add, i guess, as a failure to address the key issues. and i think there's a key problem. i, i, i hear you know, different western liter speak and i never hear any of them being able to articulate

the russian position. and even if the were able to articulate it and they would be immediate the talk, because once you explain the appointment, you can refuse to have legitimizing this. and this is the main problem because there's so many objective realities in terms of how this work began the development over the past 30 years. what sparked the war and also how the war has been going? i mean, people would be thinking for 2 years that ukraine was winning because that's what they're being told. so there's a that, that's the failure. it has been on many levels and it tends to go back to the issue of a failure of unit polarity. but just in the past few days, the government there in no way where you are speaking to be from the defense minister of you know, graham sending surface to and me so i was to so then scale pregnant is to join us go store signing by latrell military agreements with zelinski, maybe in the next few weeks they've announced there. and also of course, home of isn't the nobel peace prize they gave to kids. and you will be as in your

book quite a bit. i mean, just to take, you know, as an example, what do they thank as well. i think this uh, overall uh, of some sort of strategic thinking uh across, made to for the sake it said that there hasn't been any plans. so we will discuss how this war began, which means we, we kind of discuss how to solve it. and also, the assumption is we will need to rejected or compromise this. we don't even have diplomacy. even then negotiation, somebody come and go to work. so the only possible outcome, acceptable outcome is victory, but no one has defined the old victory means. are we going to defeat the world's largest nuclear power? uh, exactly. how would this look like? so this, uh, this, this is, you know, like all the clarity in terms of what the actual goal is and i again, i don't think there's any good solutions to this. i think it, it

a key foundation of this, of this miserable policy. so the same policy should be pursued. this step is the basic assumption that it's still on, provoked. now we're not allowed to contest that assault approval, because if he said it was provoked, then we were legitimizing it. but by singles, unprovoked, it suggests that russia simply out shopping for new territory stuff as well. so i'll put you in this thing. and if that's the case, of course, you have to send width is to increase the costs compared to the benefits. so i'm thinking territory, however, if you recognize this was provoked that to russia sees this is alexis central threats, which is an objective reality confirmed again 30 years from washington as well. well then, sending oldest weapons will merely escalate because russia can never step down or back off is the only option to force into for victory. the only alternative is for it to completely withdrawing. see effectively, nate, the martian on ukraine, us our e mail and the company as well. it's a, it's, i think it's, is, goes back to this for the assumption that this most unprovoked and i think this is

where a lot of the mistakes are water and not only the historic hatred of russia, but it is being talked about quite a lot at least by those who supported pigeons, actions the god and method for i mean, i remember rudyard kipling the clap trap orient list, right? you know, did when i was going to school, you explain with this uh, these words we heard from the foreign minister, joseph burrell, talking about the rest of the world as a jungle and them as a god and how they keep reappearing. these kinds of a phrases, victoria and humans, husband robot kagan, talking about the importance of leading the world. and this, again, this dichotomy between god and, and jungle. i didn't know whether i'm in the jungle here in the u. a because i'm not in one of the metric polls of western europe. well, this actually has a, a c, this has suggested a long history now. and we can, we say that the modern world order is based on this fall, the in which we're,

every state was recognized to be sovereign. however, it soon became more evidence that we did not have sovereignty quality. and those states have the same sovereignty. so sovereignty was something not just the right, but also responsibility and the only one who were capable of upholding this responsibility. work then your pm's, the christians, and the rest of the world. we're not civilized, we're not the or p and so enough christians. and so for this reason that they did not have the same sovereignty, this is again, just an objective reality. that is the system that was formed. and so under this system there was uh, the directory which would merge was it? yeah, this is the garden which is the civilized to europe and then you have the rest of the world, which is the jungle. and the basic assumption will be once we're, when we're in the garden, we have to respect the rule of law. but when we're in the jungle, we really have to go out and, and, and,

and there is no longer apply because this is the rule of the jungle. so we don't have to follow the reset more once, routes in the wider world. now you can say that after the cold war will, after the 2nd world war, we began to drop a lot of this rhetoric about the civilized versus the various. but we now through ideology, reframed it as a liberal democracies versus authoritarian states. and this is why this rhetoric has to be revived, the garden and the jungle. and again, it's not that some far proofread even up to the advisor to main advisor to tony blair when he came up with this liberal internationalism called for a liberal empire. it's effectively use the same metaphor. we are, we are the garden, we have to go out there. so the jungle and the you see the same rhetoric also from the leadership from a, as a uh, but who made this argument again just by kipling. if we are the gardens, we have built a system based on peace and law, but the outside of our walls, there's a jungle. and if we don't go into the jungle and tame them,

then the jungle will grow and go into the garden. so there is this a, yeah, quite a, it's a, it's a rhetoric of a superior or to, in order to justify this already in the qualities of sovereignty for us. but not for you. this is the basic idea handy of you back genocide around the world and vito un security council resolution say you want to on guns or if you. but if you actually believe that it was at the, they did a nation propaganda media as we loading the valley in russia, it was matched with nazis, of course, and backed rushes at re taking of crimea. how. how do you think uh, the new valid, the case should be covered by this media and who, who benefitted from is killing or his death just before the munich security conference given that they the tele trying to build him up as some i find him be

compared to nelson mandela, or of old people, you know, on the bbc, cnn and, and the propaganda media of that nature, nations a 0. this has become a trend, i guess, over the past 2 years. of course, this isn't in the book s, this happened more recently bought and bought associated with one glassdoor from venezuela on or, or the case in bell. or as you know, there's a tendency to try to elect their leaders for other governments and much like to start a new crime. by the way, within the holidays. i think it was missing there. i guess from the media has to do is because of course, if uh if uh, if someone from political position dicing in prison uh that the people have a, you know, legitimate reasons to clear and like, why was it mistreated? for example, why don't, why, why should have transparency, but that being said, we can't pretend to say the rest hasn't been using this for everything is worse.

and also uh, as you said, white watched him. i mean, i keep hearing references from people like michael before mcfall, that he was the main opposition leader in russia and i hear this over and over again. but this is just objective reality is not correct. that makes my position is the commonest part of the have many other political parties. he wasn't, he wasn't the and opposition leader in this sense. and i don't think here uh, you know, those any chance of him taking power in russia. so this is a very false narrative and also i guess the way he smelled for treat it as being this yes, a freedom fighter. again, this is the one that happens all this rhetoric of a, you know, considering muslims in the concerts that's being cockroaches. i remember a lot from the west to me that tried attempted to declare his name saying, well this was when he was younger and the less experienced. but when they get back to interview me, confront my opinions. i'm not changed. so that's been asked for a strong effort to whitewash it, but it doesn't to me. again, it's,

it seems very naive or deceptive. just suggest this is not a politically motivated professor glenn, thanks. and i'll stop you that more from the author of ukraine. more on the ration we'll do a draft of his break. the look forward to talking to you all that technology should work for people. a robot must obey the orders given by human beings accept. we're such orders at conflict with the 1st law show your mind, anticipation. we should be very careful about our professional intelligence at the point, obviously is to make a truck rather than to the area with artificial intelligence. we have somebody in the payments the

robot must protect this phone, existence was on the the welcome back to going on the garden. i'm still here with professor glen decent editor at russia in global affairs and author, the claim warranty ration weld order pro, has a gate base, and we were just talking about one about the valley and the sub, to comparisons being made and propaganda me during the nato nations in the valley, of course, before he started marching with the nazis in russia, was funded by the national endowment for democracy. and you explain in this book up briefly. it in passing, the way the us intelligence services act in terms of these n g l is to attempt the destruction of democracy around the world. can just go into

that a little because the national endowment for democracy is a routine me considered a great to pro democracy organizations, organization in the nato countries, as you know, as well. this is one of the, the contradictions of the liberal, a 100 my. so under liberal hedge him, under the assumption is that the liberal ideals can only elevate in the international system if it occurs under the leadership of hedge money and do not have states. and uh, so towards this end to ensure that you money and is main to logics of the corruption of civil society. because we argue that a true free and open the democracy which, which has to be to belong to the garden. then you have to have a strong civil society supported by and jose, however, that is not enough to have to be international and juice. and then it turns out that a lot of this in san jose are actually not actually non governmental. they are completely

financed by government and often staffed by if people or former part of the intelligence community. now when it comes to was national, the, on the side of the national endowment for democracy, it was actually established in 1980, so 83 and entered the opening speech introduction. the speech was given by ronald reagan and he was very clear that this was a way of doing things in the open instead of hiding because i see, i don't think drug costs. it was quite embarrassing. and again, this is not really big secret. do you have the, the co founder of the national government for democracy confirming that did what the c i used to do is what to do. now, we have had many whistle blowers from the see. i will say that this is effectively a c i operation and it is a great way of a interfering in other societies. because once you put all your money or put your money for it to ferentz into a n g o, which is allegedly about democracy,

you now have source credibility. it's a, it's an institution of working for good knowledge to swim or pose of it. you know, they're undermining democracy. so it helps older propaganda value you need. also, it's selected by definition. today they only look at to a human rights and democracy issues in other syria states. so suddenly, oh, great power politics is framed through the prism of human rights. so good, good values versus bad values. the democratic twist versus the authority are interest. and so this becomes an instrument of propaganda because there's no principles involved. a look at the current instance. uh, you know, nobody can show what it needs to report on some solid liter dying and that you're pregnant, pressing or on the julie massage. but the people that can have all of these has to be, you know, want to watch them become the new montela. so it's, it shows that this is a way of corrupting civil society rather than actually building it. and you use

a lot of, uh, wiki leaks is work in the book in terms of footnotes, because of course do it in his own tribunal. so many secrets, regardless of the case in london, and we've had to you in special rubber to talking about his torture by british authorities. is it to be expected that washington um, and proxy brussels in london? and so we will collaborate to try and assassinate to the kind of people that appear in foot goats of the kinds of books you're right. is that to be expected now that the they will organize assassinations as the julian, so on his defense team maintain well, it depends, it depends. so it would be about, uh, of course the, the site has been revealed to have to have plans to kill a sock. so this is again an objective reality. but the, the, the problem is everything becomes a politicized. if you, if you, if you recognize that to that are like our side is committing this kind of crimes,

it's, you can be accused of assisting the other ser, uh because it will take our related topic i, if, if you criticize, for example, sanctions against russian, that they don't work, which is reality, and then you reduce trust in sanctions. and if you reduce trust as options, that means you're assisting the russians. so we always solve the narratives which have to trump and the facts. and i think this is, it goes back to the same problem. well i, the only thing is that uh, even kind of us allies like india, which will be a, does masters of trade since approved and decided to defend the people of vice. and ukraine is getting annoyed by the national them democracy themselves. you quote life to link to environments just to remind the injection good of explaining why the nato hates democracy. presumably with the use of these, um, maybe some goldman g o is maybe we should go in jo's yeah that, and that's some place that's not that long into that acronym. but the, but this is

a, this is a good example, because often this is portrayed as being a struggle simply between the us. it's allies on one side, and it's sandra serious on the others. but as you see, and this is one of the future of the new world order, emerging is a multiple our system. and so you have countries such as it was the country, so friends with us as well. so just turkey or india, as i mentioned, who would like to have to act as an independent paula power, which means they're not going to follow in the footsteps of united states. so they, they also become more and more cautious. now this instruments some hedge of money and which are not just, you know, like nomic, military and political. but it's also the manipulation of civil society. and this is what the indians for commenting upon or the foreign minister when, when, when the effect of the cold is manipulations and it's a nothingness, civilizing mission, in terms of bringing to human rights and democracy. it is a way of manipulating policies and, and,

and essentially aligning and their policies with and united states. and along with all these geopolitical geography, military changes, you see signs of us collapse in nato nation culture. in this book, i mean, we've talked on this program about russian rights is composed as office, have been banned in the wake of the move to protect people in ukraine by russia. and you quote, a lesson from ancient room was that civilization is much like stars shining, the strongest is the before they die, presumably is what you mean. what sort of dangers? i mean that they, i mean this is 500 years when talking about so what sort of dangers and have short term with these games is going to be? are they going to washington a new proxy is going to realize it's a case of nuclear weapons as they're only the only option given they are

failing to sanction russia failing to prevent china from becoming a pre eminent economic supervisor. and so yeah, well just 1st in terms of the yeah, solicitations shining the brightest of, i mean russian right is off is being banned by nato countries. the quote was not by russia, isn't it? yeah. what, well, this is also because such a monster loose a party in ones, there's no more adverse there's, there's no more approach is being made and you see the excess is beginning to tear, tear away about that. and but the, the, the conflict with, in, in, in, you create, obviously, i think it's also a good indication of how they fail to, uh, to, to, to the appropriate priorities. because in the amount of the possibilities to how to maximize security. what's there all along? and in steps there was picked the, the, the routes to maximize power instead. and i think that's been, uh,

a willful ignorance if you will, of the, how it, what the, what the strengths rush us are, and what's the weakness of himself sort. and their reaction to populism, as they call it, trump, or band and others of these liberal leads is to obviously try and tie them to the enemy i. it's being pressure for a while. presume they will be tied to china as soon as it hits their version of, of, i mean, we mentioned graham, she a lot in this book clearly uses words like a gemini and civil society, a lot and interregnum that we're in you that you, you pause it so is that their way of, uh, talking about how terrible the interregnum is this populist a situation where someone like trump is gaining so much popularity and other populace figures who will no doubt gaining popularity as the economies decline in western europe to yeah, and the interaction ameristar to us and it goes well,

this is the source of all our conflicts. now it's the world orders, the shifting. so the americans are trying to pull it back to unit polarity. while most of the non native world is trying to pull it towards multiple r to and it's in this, this friction that all the rules are collapsing, which is why we're having the crisis. we do have a populace and it's a, it's become a key problem with interest because not everyone is marching and the same talk to anymore. and this is also something i drew carlos to in the 19th century because after a period of globalization is quite common. that you have some winters of globalization and some who have lost it, lost out, for example, in europe, the farmers or in the us, the industrial and in, inside of the industry, workers. and, and in this instance, you create a huge divide between the leads and the people, and it's a, this is why after globalization in the 19th century and now you have the emergence of the sort of popular store, essentially saying that this policy is the leads are pushing and which i globalist

by definition are no longer in the interest of the people and is a populism can be a mechanism for, for, for, for, for addressing the shift from the lease, which doesn't necessarily represent the people to the extent to the set the, except there's one difference, but to from that, over this 500 years since west bailey and i should say, some british historians consider that the, both them nationalism nation states earlier of the just, you know, cause i'm british the differences, isn't that, and you mentioned sucka book and facebook, is it the tools they now have just sense of suppressed information to surveil us so much greater than ever before? could they not as, as i could book as i'm trying to get the united states to do, to increase private, public use of technology to further the aims of the c i a people and agency, or can they not do that and dumb down in

a truly orwellian oldest huxley style way and destroyed the minds of everyone in wisdom you are uh, this is a real problem. and again, this is why the problem to stay with us today or not that the dissimilar from the problems after the 1st world war. because you now have the political class beginning to do more hand in hand with the main industries which are now the just the, the digital tech jobs now sucking america. of course, the very interesting example because you know, when, when you had all this issues on the roster gate, about this information and, and the propaganda then of course the, you know, he came to the governments unless we were not to your enemies. you, you don't have to regulate us, we will work with you because this information is a problem coming from russian, china and the rod, you know, nowhere else. so he tends to identify the, the, these key issues misinformation,

as link sold it to the other side of the united states. so you see corporate interest and governments at beginning to merge more and more. and once you have this, which effectively is by definition of fascist political economy and you have very little power left for the people in this relationship because once it gets corporations and government goes hand in hand, other people have very little to, to stand up for. so i would say there's a, there's a good reason why why people are so called for and it was seemingly that comes to their way. professor glen decent. thank you. my pleasure. and that's it for the show of continued condolences to those surviving the killing in old age of back was a new book the ukraine war and the ration will daughters out now will be back with a brand new episode on sat there until then. keep in touch with our social media if it's not sensitive in your country and i do i channel going, undergoing tv on romo dot com to watch new and old episodes of going undergrads. is

that the longer in parliament improve sweden's bed to join the nato block have to nearly 2 you. busy have not negotiations and deadlock job states investigation into the blocks to destroy the node stream gas pipelines. while say it's obviously stop because he added there are no grounds to pursue a criminal case of moscow. bronze did decisions as upset the problem minister of the policy to move forward to submit his resignation to the president is taking his government with him, justifying the blue that made the escalating balance in the west bank of the war and guy that also had an active duty member of the united states enforce.