[000:00:00;00] the, [000:00:00;00] the a 5 fights, a ropes between law enforcement and a minutes since group suspects of funding service the tax in southern russia. the situation clearly indicates that the pro we're camp in europe is still very, very strong. for minute system yellow, rob says there's no western oper, types of peace in ukraine, comes up to elise cold between gym and generals to view the ponds upon rushes funding in bridge through the stuff. that's not the kind with us. yeah, honda,

it doesn't matter. we need to ensure that from the very beginning, there is no mention that would make us part of the conflict. this is a temporary refuge for those people who weren't evacuated from the town of dave kind of far away from them. that's at the moment. this temper, refugees, center houses at least 40 get from people. dozens of civilians are safely evacuated from a bit of cab, recently fried by russian frames, making advances on the phone lines. and 11 people are killed and 50 wounded in an idea of stripes on the refugee come in gossip of these flights. israel previously designating the area as a safe so it's almost indians the headlines it to a i must go time. do feel free to head over to all the dot com for more on any of

those stories on his be to scouts, and i'll be back with another locked in about the or the, the welcome to world to part a shuttle accounts remark. some things are easier to know then to explain. the russian british relationship isn't long bound. despite numerous efforts to man the historical arrival of rich, the relationship remains cold and arrogant at best, and poisonous and scheming as far as what keeps the ill will so entrenched. well, to discuss them now and join by in town, a former british diplomat, an officer of a mistake in moscow. how british diplomacy failed in russia. mister,

proud it's, it's great to talk to you. it's been a long while since i had the pleasure of conversing on air with a british gentleman, let alone a greater diplomat. so thank you very much for that. thank you for inviting me. now let's start with your experiences here in moscow, which you so humorous way of describing your book. now you replaced here in between 20142019, which was a pre day and time period starting with russia state fully returning to crimea, which i have to say in the u. k. once covetous and all the way to the still mysterious poisoning of sort of gas cripples. so i think it's fair to say that it was the time when uh, the previously politely called relationship turned into a seething hatred. what was it like to for you to be in the midst of all of this fuzzy? i wouldn't despite this, so is this evening hatred,

but it's the study to that uh the relationship say right to quite significantly change the time that i was in most get it was nothing else a total of and was quite a lot and i was able to guess get a more realistic perspective from the name of us than it's kind of thought about, mutate and that i think the page was, was much more mixed. that actually could be in placement. most russian people just wanted to get on with their lives and wanted to have good relationships with, with other countries, including including with the u. k. and then company it. and from life i'm the life and most a was in a corporate raises. most of my have say, and in most from jobs i see, you know, many color past experiences, especially with them children. but it was work wise. yeah. it was a different uh, different muscles ago of course. uh that was at times really full time, $162019.00. i'm here in the title of your book. you're describe yourself as an miss fit in moscow. and given the rising animosity,

and during that period i assume that it was pretty uncomfortable for, you know, many british diplomats, i wonder if you were indeed i'm interested in moscow or rather, misleading the british embassy in moscow. well, i think that's what i'm trying to make, but i missed it in that very sense. the most it was make such a good low tide, and that's exactly the point. do you compete, you? i mean, you might be, was, was much more problematic in terms of the money to have a relationship. and as i love to watch it, despite the difficulties and see how the countries difficulties we were talking about about you did off to a bite. and so how to do stuff with the 2014 and we'll know that and, and you know, it was fairly yellow months, but his colleagues in having that be fine was on a, in a most of a let me ask a personal question because i know that you're a graduate of soul and a university which is a good school, but not the least one. and in the book, you make a point about not having gone to it and not coming from the patent greed family,

which i assume didn't prevent or perhaps even if you're a curiosity. and so the sort of open mindedness about the world. and i wonder if what you describe as miss said has anything to do with social class and exclusive education and the trash 12 years that are associated with it? no, i didn't think so. i mean, i think um, i've always been quite comfortable coming, go away from class background, them replace them by the challenges i use that as a child, i was able to kind of get he and buffy education and enjoying the many of us. they just kind of fall off it's policy and program that's they've already been hired for me. i think the big get advantage i hadn't life was going on. i, the season jim needs the to assign years of my life. and that was an fantastic experience. united something when i started sold it, but nevertheless, living in its own country and have the access and experience info, totally different cultures. languages to the one that was used to that for me. it

was, i mean, you kind of a good experience and i think it's a much the mistake was about not agreeing with the u. k. policy or on the machine isn't tardy. i still didn't, my job was still push or do you have policies in the best of my abilities before i kind visitations about the duration, but also you just continue to stay. now maybe it's a russian bias, but i think one of the most common words used here in washington describe british policies. era goes sometimes coupled with ignorance. and i wonder if it's era, if this aragon so, you know, sort of this a moral high ground that the brits or the british a policy makers sometimes assume these are the, our country. whether it is in any way related to that. i'm bringing within those very selective institutions from, you know, from school and all the way to the foreign service will not, as i said, so necessarily. i mean, we've had a thought of secretaries and the last 10 years since the cutting costs are started

. david cameron, obviously the account uh so successful. the problem is that he did go to the agent, but we finals its different chaise. uh, you know that as well in the other can 7 phones, like they said, i think what you think has necessarily anything to do with it. i think they'll just begin transfer views, not just within the principal circles, but within the media as well and have say, you know, that you can try to squeeze in motion as well in technical settings. and then they've actually media. by the case, everybody wants to talk about that because i'm, i'm not sure that's actually the case and i suggest we start our discussion with many people. remember about that, but one of the 1st of this is does what i didn't know pretend made as the new elective had upstate and back in april 200-2000 actually you know, 24 years ago was to the u. k. as i think it was specifically meant to convey a good, well, and then ask for it to man the historical i mentioned between our countries. because for centuries, who have been skimming

a and tell us the child or in uh great the razor. and yet, one of his 1st intentions was to sort of ma'am, those ties. and yet, the 24 years later. and we still haven't been able to bury the hatchet. why do sing and persist? because i'm sure on the russian side that have been efforts to do something. yeah, man, i think that'd be somebody's sides of the different times that they've just followed by the way side of things like it from the lack of consistency and leadership on the pay side. it's been 15 to you know, we've had the 7 by mrs. doing, doing that pay that you talk about, you know, mean i had of low stand. thank you my number, as long as that goes, if i did during that time. so we haven't really had that stupid as the physical level that has exist on the russian side. but nevertheless, those, those moments, you know, when present treating came to you, k, u k, must send to the still big differences on policy issues on the box. for example, when you walk on something you chasing, you know, uh, for example. nevertheless, there was still

a little cummings in the case. i can really kind of recognize the polls, but i see them of us at that time. likewise, and things we count in in 2010. you know, he wanted to kind of really have a positive relationship with us and i think that was us and say it is on his ball. i don't play much lost it through to, you know, being of to 2030 when he started to come, distracted by his attempt about, you know, your call june kept on being for you paint commission present. so, you know, when those efforts that does happen on the case, certainly have thing must be meaningful. the difficulty was that certainly when for the haven't came public sector in 2014, we would invite vital hasting, i'm going to use my came 5 minister in 2016 that we hold. he's still starting bad. you know, the u. k. governmental level and it has to be to ship date until this site and continues. now, can i ask you about what you decide that, you know, a number of politicians are, were sincere in including camera and then they were sincere about hearing rushes

concerns. what exactly you mean by that? because for us it's not enough just to voice or be heard a rational once it's security concerns to be recognized and dealt with. i mean, the action is also important, not just, you know, like we are not going to the west to be, you know, our client over psych, a therapist, the we, we, we actually won the, the, to be dealt on the common basis and on the equal basis yeah, no, i totally get that. but i'll see, you know, cameron's engagement with some, you know, appointments may be different than the, as the main of and then present paging. pre dates, you know, beyond sort of the training courses and others used to talk back about time. you know, where, where we are mutually just increasing. the tennessee became a, you know, and the wise and that, and that was kind of good discussions on natural, they've been kind of for the box because listening supplementary to buy is, which means you guys and you came out to build it and said it was the live and in care,

there was disagreements on that unless you know that despite the difference is that on some policy issues, those over the intent to move forward on you know, some more posted age and engagement sometimes changes. and, you know, for example, alan was really sincere, actually believing all in wanting to see a really successful and safe um, you know, new beginnings and sochi tennis, others and 14. and a lot of, if it went into that before, that kind of recurring costs as we saw, isn't coming, boosted, pacific region, insult. see, so maybe so genuine, definitely. it's nicole as you call the boot and everything. that's impossible. and obviously we don't agree on everything with the us, for example, a lot of it kind of, you can partners, but there was a real desire to kind of collaborate the in areas where it made sense. so seduce, so why that's us. now since we mentioned put us 1st visit to the u. k, let me ask you about the last at least until now. and it was in 2013 within the framework of g age in which you play the major organizing role. when do you remember from dr. brand?

oh, i mean, i remember that can make music was the way to get free and cameron and page and it was an i see i'm the loan of often, you know, cameras visit 2 adult teeth sort by seeing other things. and no longer off that i see that amazing and know the island of david, come on with some petersburg from the g 20 summit. and there was some real areas of power. also from the cold place that alignment on policy on j. g. 20 issues, particularly in tax transparency and things of that. so yeah, there's some really good areas of collaboration that on j g g trying to kind of policy called say it is a, you know, the patron was very welcome in northern law. and at that time i live, she comes to my place and bustle, myself, or vocations on the site, paylocity from time. but obviously you're going to be sending that with some pretty bad music team present in the bottom. it looks going to just bring them all the headlines at the time because of that, obviously you'll get to ask you about this. this is something that stands out the

most for me and not so much in substantive terms, but then emotional terms. because we only remember that footage of uh, obama, seeing in a very demonstrative lead, bore it. and some would say eric and fashion on the part in the cross and nonchalant clinton. and maybe it's just a russian bias, but i think there is a strong perception in russia, the west sort of maintains its moral grandiosity at rushes expands that obama sort of had to meet with a put in by duty. but he wasn't your interest signaling that he is morally above it . how common do you think that is for the west in general, all 5 using russia as, as a scapegoat for its own shadow. i think it is certainly too uh in the west. um to, um, you know, we, we take, uh so many policy might decide to buy a normative deal and policy that, you know,

but we don't engage with auction because we don't some of bush's actions, the initial back smith taking the call to is to be kind but on other issues as well, nation since we have on it and so on. central with that and that's certainly something lens back on the body in countries. other thing that that's, that's a bit of a challenge. and, and, but i think that she got back some, i'm gonna think the same thing to be said about some of the questions media portrays, you know, the west that state machine close by the media ways. and it's very difficult to have a catalog and into that kind of line. you didn't use a much as you know, especially controlled media environment by much, which is the option slip, pensacola. and i was hoping that it would show up with our work for a state supported television, and i, i'm giving your 0 the ability to say whatever you want to say this makes you, i'm very cool to you for that. now i'd be happy, the point i'm making is that it's very difficult time to cancel. i commit to the meeting and try to learn about russia and that, and that hadn't changed from this become was say, the pasta a to, i've seen since i'll be involved in was somebody question that's by much to be,

it's like, you know, given how much you talk to other countries and by the need for face speech. it's amazing how difficult to be is to expose all tend to be on a policy towards russia. well, uh, mr. proud. and before we get engaged or rather into ranch the now own arguments, let's take a storage break, but they will be back in

a couple of moments say 10 the the welcome back tools, of course with in child a former graders diplomat and also roles and miss fit in most go how british diplomacy failed in russia. now, mr. proud in the book, you describe yourself as a realist and human team, the core purpose of diplomacy. and indeed statesmanship is to manage relationship the twin states and to prevent conflict. are you sure that this is still an authentically proceed goal of the u. k. policy? because it does seem from las go not just in your crank, but also in the middle east, for example, that i'm reading benefits from sparking conflicts rather than solving them. well, i wouldn't necessarily say that we spotted the culture to in, in the middle east by the, the, i think the critical, the critical point is what we're doing to try to try and bring an end to conflict.

so in the world and that i think, you know, the actions could, could lead, must all of some criticism. take a gauze, uh, you know, where, where we've been quite slow and pushing for a see, saw that at anybody caveats way unlike boys in, in ukraine. well, anything was actually so that you can kind of see saw, that's fine, but on getting demonstration instructions because in that country. so i think uh, you know, that actually, um, i think there is a need to going to be, it is my, you know, a place to, to buy those kinds of public funding. and let me give you a brief, i say, because i in the contract, when i ask that question, i don't not ask it in the sort of in a more realistic sense. i ask it doesn't matter of strategy and tactics. and i do that also with a, uh, an experience of being a reporter on the ground in syria and libya and the, frankly, i mean, it's hard to, or it's hard to process the british role in, in the, in those conflict and say that it was very transparent and moral,

and that's why i'm asking you about this because i think it's, uh, it's essentially about positioning of bread, the within the western camp. what role do you think breton wants to play? and what's the means of fusing? because clearly could not be the alpha player and that's the role is reserved for washington. so what is left there from britain to exert its power to win tenants and funds and also to gain what it wants to gain within the western account? yeah, nothing. we haven't made tonight as the price mentioned to you today about what of all should be because certainly since breaks, you know, we, we were determined to break free and take back control of our lives as we break st . and it seems to me that one of the biggest consequences of breaks it is that i don't follow the policy terms. we shouldn't be directed to place alignment with the us. and the, you know, we, us control of policy to, in some of the specs. maybe the old book says, but to washington, so, so they weigh it when it may have an identity card. and you see that very much in terms of the kinds we tell you, tell them dogs and on the train with, well,

obviously it is. it's very close on the american policy, west main street, us in the us, and that is starting to emerge from your client. nicholas not, i think we, we have to make sense of all these in the world as in the sense that you are paying coaching that we don't, i sort by being european, but we are, you know, you're paying for the country and how we can work best with you, it being honest to bring about your campus and security. i want to ask you about what's going on with them and not necessarily guys and but within the whole middle is today because it's pretty clear that for example, the united states and around do not want to get involved into a direct conflict. but there's sort of perception and i heard it from both the americans and the radians that there's some sort forces that are trying to capitalize on the insecure inches of both sides and are essentially trying to get whatever they can salvage from the american global. as heritage, the americans have withdrawing back to themselves, they're pulling production back to the united states and there's some remnants of

the global list economy. some of them concentrated around london that may be beneficial for the u. k. to preserve, do you think you k? it may be involved in something like this, playing not only against the it's proclaimed elements like rational for example, iran, but also against and suppose at alice like the united states. uh, $8.00 and how to take something that's kind of um, applying the started be perfectly honest see that and in this kind of a saying, i think i think the phone with calls and actually the same only the problem is, is it was, you know, we're not taking a position on the call, treat that actually making noises in the post solution, but somebody size a solution by some policy name. people are being subject tools as of terrible, frankly, attacks and injustices and human rights violations. and the worst of these white people, this of that dreadful contact was to type in october of last year. and you know, we need as if we want to have a whole list of states the,

we need to kind of give you the, the choice to reconcile the different positions that were assigned and, and, and as well. and try and find some of the long term solution in concert with the international partners. and exactly the same can be said we with the company to new claim where, where, you know, we, we, the site with the painting was simple. you claims because on to types apparently, although it seems to be taking to all the toning some to the west and bomb is. but actually what we need to be do need is know to promote team. also productively stooped can be kind enough to, to west the new train and bustle and so involved in taking sides. and i need some taking sides and complex, which is actually one of the big items that we face in terms of our credibility is consent to national cult to for much, let me ask specifically about this special relationship between most and between washington, the london and as we all know anyone who has ever been in the heart of those relationships and his special relationship has of a fair share of resentment and sometimes even conceal sabotage. how would you

describe at this point of time? i'll send think we, uh, the, the ties between london and washington. what are, what is there beyond the public facade and the public truck limitations of a terminal union and internal friendship will lead, have a good voice with the us, but it's a relationship. and that is what it is that the relationship here yourself said that the you are in dentist is last cuz you're not getting what you're warranty or not. you're not. and you're getting a sort of a short stick, a strong down of a shake on the but it was really on the site. so they still in the context of helping to accommodate his intent all these big of the economy. and then this really is kind of 10 times bigger than the 3 and so on. so, you know, we are very much the junior partner in the relationship. and i certainly think we may still virginia and palm a deal. his has advice consign and free trade agreement with us off to after it

breaks it in. but nevertheless you know that be to have us kind of helping them do voc and attacks against a huge examples and so on. you know, in the middle east. so i mean, i think it's somebody and even overlay shit, but to me all of us and go american times like of us and finds such as about like come on, we are reading this nothing or serious issues. we are discussing actually national treasures and the way you deal with those treasures in a responsible way. and i heard you say ones that you believe the americans at the end of the day are always transactional. and perhaps it's not bad to be transactional because it's, you know, minding what, what you are trying to achieve. do you think the u. k. policy would benefit from being a little bit more transactional and openly so yeah, no, absolutely. and certainly you the dog policy towards china, for example, where, where we see as all these times the opposite from a both equals russian. we shouldn't pay speed. we just, i really engage with, i should have physical level infer that can be, but with china despite it, can of course significant differences of opinion on,

on various issues. we nevertheless make you nice and by, you mean casement. so we can have these kind of go to the discussions, could kind of be conflicts, is we need to be, let's do that. we need to be able to have relationships. so that's how you to good little bad and recognize the differences exist, but still able to have kind of grand conversations that at the level of need to lose it to live attack. i'm now going to be ukranian of conflict. i think we would both agree the crack so with is the proposition of nato expansion, which russia has seen and still sees as a core strategic threat. and what i think is far more important. it has the weapons, the strategy, and the political result to defend against what it sees as a threat. and he has, as you have observed, the u. k. together with the u. s. have refused to, of knowledge of russia, sensibilities or its ability to, you know, defend whether it's the deems to be it's strategic interest. what exactly did they

fail to see the, the rest of the concerns which were numerous lean voice on the troops that the russia has assembled had assembled on the border in 2021. you know, we, we had the experience some to you guys night with the wood, georgia. there was an impulse by somebody kind of some circumstances. i mean, you know, some of the, the, in the west we should be looking for the future fee cleaning. that is more costs, person to have is more integrated with the claim to come in and so on. and so for i don't think data expansion person is consistent, but i do take the when advice you is so kind of basically the opposed a site expansion. that's nothing new news with no advice for whether we wrote that case. and we continue to push the sign. i think it, you know, if they agree here at some point i agree this year or maybe next year where we have a seasonal. i knew kindly where the new bonus have clarity advised that aspiration and, and you know, uh, being over this, the capacity for the cuttings. um,

the cutting spending protecting an interest in the actually kind of incentives getting so um you know, back in, in march of 2020 to just a month out to the um, the word stubs. it was changed signs it and it kind of would be waiting to proceed on the type of men shit. no, there's definite frustration. you can see and you can kind of go mental cycles. but actually, you know, they want to, they take the kinds of skies id, id call you and they want you to monet, to kind of diagnose anybody they function and the tools and getting involved. and you can see, you can, you can set out the whole thing of protection from, from you claim to that sly, always the sure. since if you can maybe join us one day, we don't ask you going to kind of come to a when, when the fighting the fighting sauce and then said he showed you. and it's like when they to kind of concession on us from the child. even security shows isn't that sort of thing. and that was and taken off the table. ultimately, baptism will decide, i mean, she has all the constitutional powers to decide on his country neutrality. but what do you keep referring to doing or being responsible for ukraine, sig, i wonder if you are still in this new case position of the sort of moral print dose

additional, do you do that for your own sake? because, i mean, does the u. k. have the resources available, the strategy to actually support made enlargement do have the times the weapons of the people to fight against russia in order to implement that as a policy goal of the, you know, finding the, to glad to use look. so i'm so you know, funny you to good you guys, but i mean, i think my view is that actually, um, you know, it's not, it's not a bad thing to it. to go to a site, you can post this come to the ukraine in the future. that goes on yourself, i mean it's talking about your credit and the evaluation. so it's pretty evaluation . and i'll also may say, but you're on your specific point to me to, you know, nasal knowing to the new us new strong as new a, a as the twice as large as, as much as all me. so mean that the munitions to support their credit. i mean, you can be sad as you know, some people in america fat, but they,

they're not strong. i mean, on 3 can confusing. besides with the real strengths here it goes, it's ultimately about the efficiency of applying your research for assessing. that's result full way that can me to do that. at this point of time, you're going to use it. but nato has never wanted to do a cold training with uh, with washer and ukraine. but unfortunately, we kind of, because the, the idea of may to expansion has remained on the table. we've ended up in this kind of awfully has where, you know, we know i, you know, even want to kind of be gauge with the area of usher and listen to what she has concerns. but neither i'll be waiting to see if i can claim to actually kind of hold on to that position of ebony to aspiration. and i knew this when he comes to the coal, the point that we need to have a final thing on mobile is you know, a, a piece while you claims future state as long as that new, like in terms of the season, a task space and to see memory, best solutions and so on. sample you find you have to kind of group i have for you

. you may a serious as i have side as you know, and by 630 in the corporate, in wanting cds in ukraine. okay. well, mr. proud uh, it's been great pleasure for me talking to you. sorry for it. uh, uh, becoming a little bit spiced into the i guess how it goes, get with the brand based historical and the mazda takes truth is, but it's been the most deep, but to get the system that we were able to solve back to the pleasure was on my side as well. thank you very much and thank you to our viewers for watching hope to hear again. honeywell is