on the phone, welcome to world a part of shuttle accounts, remarks. some things are easier to know then to explain the russian british relationship is among them. despite numerous efforts to ma'am the historical rivalry, the relationship remains cold and arrogant at best, and poisonous and scheming as force. what keeps the ill will so entrenched while to discuss it, i'm now in joined by, in proud a former breed. there's diplomat and also roles a mistake in moscow. how british diplomacy failed in russia. mr. proud is, is great to talk to you. it's been a long while since i had the pleasure of conversing on air with a british dental and let alone a greater diplomat. so thank you very much for that. i'm thank you for inviting me

. now, let's start with your experiences here in moscow which you so humorously in describing your book. now you replaced here in between 20142019, which was a pre day and time period starting with russia state fully returning to crimea, which i have to say in the u. k. once covetous and all the way to the still mysterious poisoning of sort of gas cripples. so i think it's fair to say that it was uh the time when uh, the previously politely called relationship turned into a seething hatred. one was like to for you to be in the midst of all of this fuzzy, i wouldn't despite this, so is this evening hatred. but as the study to that, uh, the relationship say right? quite significantly during the time that i was in most skate and nothing else, a total of and most of the coins a lot. and i was able to guess get

a more realistic perspective from the name us. and it's kind of thought about mutate and that i think the page was, was much more mixed. but actually, i could be in placement. most russian people just wanted to get on with their lives and wanted to have good relationships with, with other countries, including including with the u. k. and then company it and from life i'm the very life and most a was in a corporate raises. most of my have say, and in most from jobs i see, you know, many called past experiences, especially with young children. but it was work wise. yeah. it was a different that different muscles ago of course. uh, that was a times really full time. 162019. i'm here in the title of your book. you're describe yourself as an miss 5th in moscow and given the rising animosity and during that period i assume that it was pretty uncomfortable for, you know, many british diplomats. i wonder if you were indeed me sit in moscow or rather

misleading the british embassy in moscow. well, i think that's what i'm trying to make, but i am, it's been in that very sense the most, it would make such a good low tide. and that's exactly the point you, you're completely right. i mean, you might be, was there's multiple diagnostic details and then a time for a relationship. and as i load, we'd all should define the difficulties. you can see all the countries difficulties we were talking about if i did it off to a bite. and so i have to do stuff with the 2014 and we'll know that and, and you know, i was fairly alone that much space colleagues in having that be families are made in the most of letting me ask a personal question because i know that you're a graduate of soul and a university which is a good school, but not the least one. and in the book, you make a point about not having gone to it and not coming from the patent greed family, which i assume didn't prevent or perhaps even if your curiosity and so the sort of open mindedness about the world. and i wonder if what you describe as miss said has

anything to do with social class and exclusive education and then trash 12 years that are associated with it? no, i didn't think so. i mean, i think um, i would always be quite comfortable coming forward from class background, them replace them by the challenges i use that as a child, i was able to kind of getting embassy education and enjoying the many as they just kind of fall off. it's policy and program that they've already made a high estimate. i think the big get advantage. why hasn't life was going up the season. jim needs the to assign years of my life. and that wasn't fantastic experience. united something when i started sold it. whenever less living in its own country and have the access and experience of totally different cultures, languages to the one that was used to that for me, it wasn't really kind of a good experience. and i think very much the mistake was about not agreeing with the u. k. policy on the machine isn't tardy. i still didn't my job. i still push

all of you have policies the best of my abilities before i tried to innovation. so by the direction of the policy just continue to stay. now maybe it's a russian bias, but i think one of the most common words used here in the russian to describe british policies, era goes sometimes coupled with ignorance. and i wonder if it's eric if this aragon so, you know, sort of this a moral high ground that the brits or the british a policy makers sometimes assume these are the, our country. whether it is in any way related to that. i'm bringing within those very selective institutions from, you know, from school and all the way to the foreign service. one not, i don't think so necessarily. i mean, we've had a tall secretaries and guys in the last kind of 10 years since the cutting costs. it started david cameron on see the account. uh so the sites all the problem is that he did guides, it needs him, but we finals its different chaise. uh, you know, that as well. any other concerns on site guys that i think what you think uh as

necessarily anything to do with it. i think village spinning trans views. notice within the principal circles, but within the media as well and have say, you know, they're pretty and try to squeeze in motion as well as technical settings. and then the rushing me about the case. everybody wants to talk about that because i'm, i'm not sure that's actually the case. and i suggest we started our discussion with many people. remember about that, but the one of the 1st of this is that's what i didn't put in uh made as the new elective had upstate and back in april 200-2000 actually you know, 24 years ago was to the u. k. as i think it was specifically meant to convey a good, well, and then ask for it to man the historical i mentioned between our countries. because for centuries, who have been scheming, and tells the child her in a great eurasia, and yet uh, one of his 1st intentions was to sort of ma'am, those ties. and yet, the 24 years later. and we still haven't been able to bury the hatchet. why do

thing and persist? because i'm sure on the russian side that have been efforts to do something. yeah, man, i think that'd be next to somebody besides that the different times um just for by the way side of things like that from the lack of consistency and leadership on the pace. so i just made 152, you know, we've had the 7 by mrs. doing doing that. pay the you talk about, you know, midnight of those 10. thank you. my number's on site please. if i'm doing that time . so we haven't really had that stupid as the physical level that has exist on the policy side. but nevertheless, those those moments, you know, when present breeding came, came a sudden busy. and they were still big differences on policy issues all about. for example, when you walk on something you chasing, you know, uh for example, unless there's still a little cummings in the case. i can really kind of recognize the polls, but i see most of the time like boys and things we count in in 2010. you know, he wanted to kind of really have

a positive relationship with us and i think that was us and say it is on his ball. i don't think much loss. and through to, you know, being of to 2030, when he started to come, distracted by his attempt about, you know, your call doing cut from being you paint condition present. so you know, when those efforts that does happen all the. okay, so they have bang must be meaningful. the difficulty was that certainly when from haven't came full effect in 2014, we would invite ok and i'm going to use my kind of 5 minister in 2016 that we hold . he's still starting bed. you know, the u. k, go mental level and it has be to ship date until this site and continues. now can i ask you about what you decide that, you know, a number of politicians are, were sincere and including camera and that they were sincere about hearing rushes concerns. what exactly you mean by that? because for us, it's not enough just to voice or be her, it's a rational once it's security, concerns to be recognized and dealt with. i mean,

the action is also important, not just, you know, like we're not going to the west to be, you know, our client over psych, a therapist, the we, we, we actually won the, the, to be dealt on the common basis and on the equal basis. yeah, no, i totally get that. but i'll see, you know, cameron's engagement with some, you know, by missing media from then as the main of and then present paging. pre dates, you know, to be honest with the current and causes and other issues to talk bad about side uh you know, where and where we are mutually just increasing the kinda city. it became a, you know, and the wise and that, and that was kind of good discussions on natural, they've been kind of for the box to kind of listening supplementary to bite is which means you guys send, you came much involved and saying it was even in care, there was disagreements on that unless you know that despite the difference is that on some policy issues, those over the intent to move forward on, you know, some more posted age and engagement, sometimes tailors and you know, for example,

how long was really sincere, actually believing all in watching to see really successful unsafe um you know, new beginnings. and so the $10.14 and all that i went into that before, that kind of recurring costs as we saw, isn't coming this the pacific region insult to you. so maybe some genuine efforts, nicole's you call the boot and everything that's impossible. and obviously we don't agree on everything with the us. for example, like kind of you can partners, but there was a real desire to kind of collaborate the in areas where it made sense for us to do so. why that's us now, since we mentioned put us 1st visit to the u. k. left may ask you about the last, at least until now, and it was in 2013 within the framework of g age in which you play the major organizing role. when do you remember from that there about, oh, i mean, i remember that kind of music was really gifted and cameron and page and it wasn't . i see i'm the loan of often, you know, cameras visit to adult teeth sort by seeing other things and no longer off that i

see that amazing and know the island. i'll see david come on with some piece, but i for the g 20 summit. and there was some real areas of power also from the cult place, the alignment on policy on g and g, 20 issues, particularly in tax transparency and things of that. so yeah, there's some really good areas of collaboration. but on j g g trying to kind of policy called say it is a, you know, the patron was very welcomed in northern ireland at that time i live, she comes to my class and bustle, myself vocations on the side, tables that have some time. but obviously you can, i'll be sending that with some pretty bad music team preaching in the bottom. it looks kind of frustrating for them all the headlines at the time. because of that, obviously with the, with this, this is something that stands out the most for me and not so much in substantive terms, but then emotional terms. because uh, we only remember that footage of uh, obama, seeing in a very demonstrative lead board. and some would say eric and fashion on the part in

the cross and known shalanda clinton and maybe its just the russian bias. but i think there is a strong perception in russia, the west sort of maintains it's a moral grandiosity at the rushes expands that obama sort of had to meet with the put in by to here to. but he was near to signalling of of his morally above it. how common do you think that is for the west, in general, all facts using russia as, as a scapegoat for its own shadow? i think it is certainly to it in the west. um to, um, you know, and we, we take, uh so many policy might decide to buy a normative deal and policy that, you know, but we don't engage with auction because we don't, some of the bushes actions the initial backs. we have to clean the call to be claimed, but on, on other issues as well. nation since we have on it and so on. so i wouldn't

necessarily something that ends back on the way in countries. other thing that, that's, that's a bit of a challenge. and, and, but i think that i see that, that some, i'm gonna think the same thing could be said about some of the motion media portrays, you know, uh, the west that site machine forced by the media. waste again, is by difficult to have a catalogue mid to that kind of line. you didn't, you take much is, you know, the state of control media in vasa by much pushes dawson's in the plug. cuz colorado tell them necessarily sure, because i work for a state supported television, and i'm giving your 0 the ability to say whatever you want to say this makes you, i'm very cold but to you for that. but now the, i think the, the point i'm making is it's very difficult time to cancel. i commit to the median tracts, line it back to russia, and that, and the huge range from is become, was say, the pasta, hey, the, i've seen some sort of being involved in, in working with us. and that's by much, truly it's like, you know, given how much you talk to other countries and by the need for free speech. it's amazing how difficult to be is to expose the whole time to be on a policy towards russia. well,

mr. proud and before we get the engaged or rather entrenched the now own arguments, let's take a storage break, but they will be back in a couple of moments state and the the watching is why isn't why in this control? if i give both plenty of the store and this this, you should have been a short order for now, i'm not going to say lots of green scale. when i am what i could catch at your desktop session. let's just show new york, just a bunch of mine is going you said on the what's the the, the,

the the welcome back tools, of course with in child a form of writers, diplomats and also roles mis fit in most go how british diplomacy failed in russia . now mr. proud in the book, you describe yourself as a realist and human team, the core purpose of diplomacy, and indeed statesmanship is to manage relationship the twin states and to prevent conflict. are you sure that this is still an authentic? we pursued goal of the u. k policy because it does seem from moscow not just in your grant, but also in the middle east, for example, that i'm reading benefits from sparking conflicts rather than solving them. well,

i wouldn't necessarily say respond culture to in, in the middle east, by the, the coast, all the codes will coordinate is what we're doing to try to try and bring it in to complex. so in the world, and i think you know, the actions could, could lead must all of some criticism degree in golf. so you know where, where we've been quite slow and pushing per se, saw it at an inability to have us way. unlike boys in, in ukraine where they think it was actually some of the in college the sci fi, that's fine, but on getting demonstration instructions because in that country, so like, uh, you know, that actually, um, i think there's a need for going to be, it is you know, a place to, to buy those kinds of public funding and i don't think you'd be facing me cause i'm in the contract. when i ask the question, i do not ask you the sort of a more realistic sense. i ask it as a matter of strategy and tactics, and i do that also with a, an experience or being a reporter on the ground in syria, in libya and the frankly, i mean, it's hard to,

or it's hard to process the british role in, in the in those conflicts and say that it was very transparent and moral and that's why i'm asking you about this because i think it's uh, it's essentially about positioning of great the within the western camp. what role do you think brenton wants to play and what means it's using because clearly could not be the alpha player and that's role is reserved for washington. so what is left there from britain to observe his power to win tenants and funds and also to gain what it wants to gain within the western account? yeah, nothing. can we haven't made the noise. does the price of managing the pay about what level should be? because certainly since breaks that you know, when we were determined to break free and take back control of our lives as we break st. and it seems to me that one of the biggest consequences of bikes it is that they come full of policy terms. we shouldn't be directed to place alignment with the us. and the, you know, we, us control of policy to, in some of the specs,

maybe the old book says, but to washington. so, so they wait, wait a bit of an identity card. and you see that very much in terms of being culturally insights on dogs and on the train with, well, i'll see is it's, you know, very close the line. really american policy, west main street, us in the us and they're starting to emerge from ukraine. but nevertheless, not, i think we, we have to make sense of all these in the world, as in the sense that you have been covering that we don't, i sort by being your opinion, but we are, you know, your opinions of the country and how we can work best we do a pin on or something about you can peace and security. i want to ask you about what's going on with them and not necessarily garza but within the whole middle is today because it's pretty clear and that for example, the united states and around do not want to get involved into a direct conflict. but there's sort of perception and i heard it from both the americans and the radians that there's some sort forces that are trying to capitalize on the insecure inches of both sides and are essentially trying to get

whatever they can salvage from the american global. as heritage, the americans have withdrawing uh back to themselves, they're pulling production back to the united states and there's some remnants of the global hist economy. some of them concentrated around long that may be beneficial for the u. k. to preserve, do you think you k, i may be involved in something like this, playing not only against the is proclaimed elements like rational for example iran, but also against and suppose it alice, like the united states. uh, $8.00. right. and how to take something that's kind of um, applying this guy to be perfectly honest. see that and induce kind of a saying, i think i think the problem with jobs and actually the same only the problem is, is it was, you know, we're not taking a position on the call. treat that actually like you nice isn't the post solution, but somebody size a solution, the voice of the policy need. people are being subject tools of terrible, frankly, attacks and injustices and human rights violations. and the what cities,

right people this of the joyful contests to type in october of last year. and you know, we need as if we want to have all those states that we need to kind of give you the, the choice to reconcile the different positions that were assigned and, and, and as well. and try and find some of the long term solution in concert with the international palm is and exactly the same can be said with, with the company to new playing where, where, you know, we, we, the side with the painting was simple. you claims because on the types of time that you were in seems to be taking to all the toning some to the west bond is. but actually what we need to be do we need is no time on my team. also productively stooped can be kind enough to continue west to a new train and bustle and so involved in taking sides. and they need some taping sides and topics, which is actually one of the big items that we face in terms of our credibility is consent to national cont, took from us. let me ask specifically about this special relationship between most

and between washington to london and as we all know, anyone who has ever been in the hair of those relationships and his special relationship has a fair share of resentment and sometimes even um, conceal sabotage. how would you describe at this point of time? uh, authentically, uh the, the ties between uh, london in washington. what are, what is there beyond the public facade and the public proclamations of a terminal union and internal friendship. always you have a good boy with the us, but it's a relationship. and that is what it is that the relationship here. so i'll send that the and you want them to stay as long as you're not getting what you're warranty or not. you don't know if you're getting a sort of a short stick, a strong down the shake on the by what's going on the site. so lacy and the contacts and can they call me this a, you know, 10 times bigger than the economy and then it's really, it's kind of 10 times bigger than the other 3 and so on. so, you know, we are very much the junior partner in the vice chair,

and i certainly think we've made fill virginia and palm a deal has, has advice consign and free trade agreement with us off to after the breaks it and . but nevertheless, you know, that be to have us kind of helping them to walk into talks against a hazy vegetables and so on, you know, in the middle east. so i mean, i think get somebody and even overlay shit. but to me all of us and go american times like of us and finds such as about like come on, we are really dispatching uh, serious issues we are discussing. uh, actually national treasures and the way you deal with those treasure is in a responsible way. and i heard you say ones that you believe the americans at the end of the day are always transactional. and perhaps it's not bad to be transactional because it's, you know, minding what, what you are trying to achieve. do you think the u. k. policy would benefit from being a little bit more transactional and openly so yeah, no, absolutely. and certainly you all policy towards china, for example, where, where we see as all these types, the opposite from

a policy as well as russia. we shouldn't pay speed, it'd be just a really engaged with. i should have physical level and for the for that can be but with china despite the can of course, significant differences of opinion on, on various issues. we nevertheless make you nice and by, you mean casement, certainly we can have these kind of guy got a discussions, could kind of the conflict, is we need to be, let's do that. we need to be able to have relationships that the site, the good below bad, and recognize that differences exist, but still able to have kind of ground conversations at the level of need to lease it to a lot of attack. i'm now going to the ukranian of conflict. i think we would both agree the crack so with is the proposition of later expansion, which russia has seen is still sees as a course strategic threat. and what i think is far more important. it has the west funds, this strategy and the political result to defend against what it sees as a threat. and you have, as you have observed, the u. k. together with the u. s. have refused to,

of knowledge or russia sensibilities or its ability to, you know, defend whether it's the deems to be a strategic interest. what exactly did they fail to see the, the rushes concerns which were a numerous lead voice on the troops that the russia has assembled, had assembled on the border in 2021. you know, we, we had the experience some to you guys night with the wood in georgia that was in it posted by somebody kind of some circumstances. i mean, you know, some of the, the, in the west we should be looking for the piece of the claimant that is more plus person that is more integrated to the claim to come me and so on. the site for uh, 1990. thanks. i suppose. nice consists of the idea take the when the bus route is i kind of basically the opposed a site expansion. that's nothing new news with no advice if the weather, the case and you and we continue to push the sign. i think it, you know, if they agree here at some point i agree this year or maybe next year where we have a seasonal. i knew kindly where the new monet's have clarity of that aspiration and,

and you know, uh, being over this, the capacity for the cranes, the crane spending protected as interesting the she can of incentives give yourself um, you know, back in, in march of 2020 to just a month out to the, um, the word stars, it was showing signs. it looks kind of with a way you can say your call may tell you mentioned this stuff and the frustration you can see and you can kind of go mental cycles. but actually, you know, they wanted me to call you this guys. i do think the kind they wanted monet's, kind of diagnosing to buy it, they'd function and they tools and getting involved. and you could, you could, you can send that out. the whole thing of protection from, from the claim to that sly, always the sure sense if you can maybe join us one day we don't ask you going to kind of come to a when, when the fighting with the fighting sauce and then so he showed it and it's like when day to kind of concession on us on the child he was going to do shows isn't that sort of thing. and that was and taken off the table and ultimately the

physical decide. i mean, it has all the constitutional powers to decide on his country neutrality, but when do you keep referring to doing or being responsible for your crane sake? i wonder if you are still in this new case position of uh, sort of more open to us additional can do that for your own sake because, i mean, does the u. k. have the resources available, the strategy to actually support made enlargement do have the times the weapons of the people to fight against russia in order to implement that as a policy goal might be, you know, finding me to guide you so. so i'm so you know, for you to going to be honest. i mean, i think mike, you is that actually, um, you know, it's not, it's not a bad thing to, to move to a site. you can pause, please come to the ukraine in the future that you're going soluble yourself. i mean, you can talk about your credit and the evaluation. so it's very rarely waste and all also nice things. but yeah, on your specific point to me, to you know, nasal knowing to the new us new strong as new a,

as twice as large as much as all me. so i mean that the munitions to support their credit. i mean, you can be sad as you know, some people in america fat, but they, they're not strong. i mean, on 3 can confusing besides with the real strengths here. because it's ultimately about the efficiency of applying your research for assessing. that's result full way, not getting me to do that at this point of time. going to use it. but nato has never wanted to do a cold training with uh, we flushing ukraine, but unfortunately, we kind of because the idea of nato expansion has remained on the table. we've ended up in this kind of awfully has where, you know, we know we know who wants, can we gauge with the russian and listen to like his concerns. but not even though we went in touch sci fi of ukraine to actually kind of hold on to that position of plato aspiration. i do this when he comes to the coal, the point that we need to have a final thing on mobile is the piece where you claims future state as long as that

new, like in terms of the season, a task space and to see memory best solutions and so on sample, we finally have to kind of group i, if we, if we may, a serious as i have signed is the new norm inversely to the end, the call rates in wanting cds in ukraine. okay. well, mr. proud. uh, it's been great pleasure for me talking to sorta of, for, uh, uh, becoming a little bit by steve to the end, i guess, how is the scale with the basic historical i'm the mazda takes through this, but it's been the most deep, but to get so stupid we are, we able soul passive to the pleasure was on my side as well. thank you very much and thank you to our viewers for watching hope to hear. and young hunter was a part of the

the there's no end in sight over how you're going to continue to destroy the earth. is the case for the med, most of the people. i tried to go to the gym, but i'm certainly not ready to fight russia. this is also of soon. this is the 3rd world lunacy re washing press for so the funder line likes to say we have the tools while we just start with stability and business deals to living on the have very goods propaganda. you know, price here in new york. i think we don't know the aftermath any time that you're not allowed to ask questions, you should ask all of the questions. the more questions ask

a better. the answer is will be the 5 flights of ropes between law enforcement and a minutes in groups. the state to the planning service that's fox. and so the most up also i have the situation clearly indicates the pro we're camping your best to build there. there's 5 minutes specifically, labrono does, does no western advertise for facing ukraine as up to elise? coal between gym and generals, reveal discussions about striking buses, climbing bridge through the stuff that's not kind of us. yeah. hot. it doesn't matter. we need to ensure that from the very beginning there is no mention that would make us talk of the conflict.