the service stopped by us electron enjoying hoffman, as we also see the full welcome to wells, a part of a shuttle accounts remark. some things are easier to know then to explain. the russian british relationship is a long bounce. despite numerous efforts to ma'am the historical rivalry, the relationship remains cold and arrogant as best and poisonous and scheming. as for us, what keeps the ill will so entrenched?

well, to discuss them now and join by in proud a former british diplomats, an officer of a mistake in moscow. how british diplomacy failed in russia, mister proud is, is great to talk to you has been a long while since i had the pleasure of conversing on air with a british gentleman, let alone a greater diplomat. so thank you very much for that. um, thank you for inviting me. now, let's start with your experiences here in moscow which you so humorously in describing your book. now you replaced here in between 20142019, which was a pre day and time period starting with russia stayed fully uh, returning to crimea, which i have to say in the u. k. ones coveted and all the way to the still mysterious boys lending officer to gaze cripple. so i think it's fair to say that it was on the time when uh, the previously likely called relationship turned into

a savings hatred. what was it like to for you to be in the midst of all of this fuzzy? i wouldn't despite this, so is this evening hatred, but it's the setting to that the ballistic, to say right? quite significantly, during the time that i was in most skate and nothing else, a struggle around russian and coins a lot. and i was able to, i guess, get a more realistic respect to folks who will name us. and it's kind of thought about new k m a. i think the picture was, was much more mixed. but actually i will be in person. most russian people just wanted to get on with their lives and wanted to have good relationships with, with other countries, including including with a u. k and then company. and for my family, they liked, and most a was, you know, confirmation as most of my have say. and in most regards safety, you know, medical, our past experiences, especially with them children. but it was work wise. yeah. it was a different that different muscles ago, of course,

that was at times pretty well 10162019. i'm yet in the title of your book, you're describe yourself as an miss fit in moscow. and given the rising animosity, and during that period i assume that it was pretty uncomfortable for, you know, many british diplomats, i wonder if you were indeed i'm interested in moscow or rather, misleading the british embassy in moscow. well, i think that's what i'm trying to make, but i missed it in that very sense. the most it was make such a good low tide and that's exactly the point. do you compete? you? i mean, you might be, was, was most, most like them. i think 8000 ebony to have a relationship and as i loved, we'd all should define the difficulties in mc uh country's eyes difficulties we were talking about about you did off domains that happened. it was stuff that was 2014 and we'll know that and, and you know, i was fairly young and that much space colleagues in having that be fine was, i mean the most that i let me ask a personal question because i know that you're

a graduate of soul and a university which is a good school, but not the least one. and in the book, you make a point about not having gone to it and not coming from the patent greed family, which i assume didn't prevent or perhaps even if your curiosity and so the sort of open mindedness about the world. and i wonder if what you describe as miss said has anything to do with social class and exclusive education and then trash 12 years that are associated with it? no, i didn't think so. i know they can always be quite comfortable coming to away from class. background them replace them by the challenges i face, that is a child. i was able to kind of get he and buffy education and enjoying the many custody. just kind of falling off it's policy and program that's they've already been hired for me. i think the big get advantage i hadn't life was going out of the season, jim these the sign years of my life. and that wasn't fantastic experience. united

something when i started sold it whenever less living in its own country and have the access and experience info, totally different cultures. languages to the one that was used to that for me it wasn't really kind of a good experience. and i think it's a much the mistake was about know, agreeing with the u. k. policy on the machine isn't tardy. i still get my job. i still have control of do you have policies in the best of my abilities before i try and visitations about the duration, but also you just continue to stay. now maybe it's a russian bias, but i think one of the most common words used here in washington describe british policies. era goes sometimes coupled with ignorance. and i wonder if it's era if this aragon so, you know, sort of this a moral high ground that the brits or the british a policy makers sometimes assume these of our country. whether it is in any way related to that. i'm bringing within those very selective institutions from, you know, from school and all the way to the foreign service will not,

as i said, so necessarily. i mean, we've had a tall secretaries and time for the last 10 years since the cutting costs. it started david cameron, obviously the account. uh so i would say probably the problem is that he did codes and you can, but we finals, it's different chaise. uh you know that as well. any other concerns on site guys that i think what you think that has necessarily anything to do with it? i think they'll just begin transfer views, not just within the principal circles, but within the media as well, and have say, you know, that you can try to squeeze in motion as well in technical settings and then the russian media, by the case everybody wants to talk about that because i'm not sure that's actually the case and i suggest we start our discussion with many people. remember about that, but one of the 1st of this is does what i didn't know pretend made as they knew, elective had of same back in april 200-2000 actually you know, 24 years ago was to the u. k. as i think it was specifically meant to convey

a good, well, and then ask for it to man the historical i mentioned between our countries. because for centuries, who have been scheming and tests each other in great eurasia, and yet uh, one of his 1st intentions was to sort of ma'am, those ties. and yet, um, 24 years later, we still haven't been able to bury the hatchet. why do sing and persist? because i'm sure on the russian side that have been efforts to do something. yeah, man, i think that'd be happens on both sides of the different times. just for, by the way, side of things like in from the lack of consistency and leadership on the pay side . spend 15 to, you know, we've had the 75 minutes since doing, doing that pay that you talk about, you know, mean i and god bless can. thank you. my number's on site 335 during that time. so we haven't really had this different lives in colorado that has exist on the russian side. but nevertheless, those those moments, you know, when present breaking came, k,

u. k must send busy. they were still big differences on policy issues on the box. for example, when you walk on something you chasing, you know, uh for example, unless there was still a little come into the case. i can really kind of recognize the poles, but i see them of us at that time. likewise and thing to be counted in 2010, you know, he wanted to kind of really have a positive relationship with us. and i think that was us and say it is on his ball and i'm pretty much lost it through to, you know, being of to 2017. when are you still have to come distracted by his attempt about, you know, you wanna call june cuz i'm being you paying commission present. so, you know, when those efforts that does happen on the case, certainly have they must be meaningful. the difficulty was that suddenly when for the haven't came public sector in 2014, we would invite vital hasting, i'm going to use my kind car minister in 2016 that we hold. the stuff's going back . you know, the u. k. governmental level and it has to be to ship it until the state and continues. now, can i ask you about what you decide that, you know,

a number of politicians are, were sincere in including camera and then they were sincere about hearing rushes concerns. what exactly you mean by that biggest for us, it's not enough just to voice or be heard a rational once it's security concerns to be recognized and dealt with. i mean, the action is also important, not just, you know, like we are not going to the west to be and, you know, i climbed over psych, a therapy. so we, we, we actually won the, the, to be dealt on the common basis and on the equal basis. yeah, no, i totally get that. but i'll see, you know, cameron's engagement with um, uh, you know, appointments may be different than the present made of and then present paging. pre dates, you know, to be honest with you kind causes and then others used to talk back about time. you know where, where we are mutually just increasing the kind of see, it became a, you know, and that why isn't it? and that was kind of good discussions on natural,

they've been kind of for the box because listening supplementary you by is which means you guys send, you came $19.00 and saying it was really financially. there was disagreements on that unless you know that despite the difference is that on some policy issues, those over the intent to move forward on, you know, some more personalities and engagement, sometimes changes. and, you know, for example, how long was really sincere, actually believing all in wanting to see a really successful and safe um, you know, new beginnings and salt, g, tennis, others, and 14. and a lot of, if it went into that before, that kind of recurring costs as we saw, isn't coming, visited the pacific region, insult. see, so maybe so genuine, definitely. it's nicole as you call the book and everything. that's impossible. and obviously we don't agree on everything with the us, for example, a lot of it kind of, you can partners, but there was a real desire to kind of collaborate the in areas where it made sense or seduce. so why that's us. now, since we mentioned kudos 1st visit to the u. k, let me ask you about the last at least until now. and it was in 2013 within the

framework of g age in which you play the major organizing role. when do you remember from dr. brand? oh, i mean, i remember that can make music was really give gene cameron and page and it was an i c, i'm button on the off to, you know, cameras visit 2 adult teeth sort by seeing other things and no longer off that i see that amazing and know the island of david, come on with some piece, but i to the g 20 summit and there was some real. there is a power also from the cold place that alignment on policy on j g. 20 issues, particularly in tax transparency and things of that. so, you know, there's some really good areas of collaboration. but on j g g trying to kind of policy cold say it is a, you know, the clinton was very welcome in northern law. and at that time i live, she comes to my place and bustle, myself vocations on the side, tables a different time. but obviously you're going to be sending that with some pretty

bad music team page. and the bottom it looks kind of just bring them all the headlines at the time because of that, obviously you'll get to choose to bother with this. this is something that sounds out the most for me and not so much in substance of terms. but then emotional terms, because we only remember that footage of uh obama, seeing in a very demonstrative li, bore it. and some would say eric and fashion on the part in the cross and known shalanda clinton. and maybe it's just a russian bias. but i think there is a strong perception in russia, the west sort of maintains its moral grandiosity at rushes expands that obama sort of had to meet with a put in by duty. but he wasn't your interest signaling that he is morally above it . how common do you think that is for the west in general, all 5, using russia as, as a scapegoat for its own shadow. i think it is certainly to uh it, in the west um to, um, you know, and we, we take,

uh so many policy might decide to buy a normative deal and policy that, you know, but we don't engage with auction because we don't some of the bushes actions the initial back smith taking the call to is to be kind but on, on other issues as well. nation since we have on it and so on. central with that. and that's certainly something lynn's back on the body countries. other thing that, that's, that's a bit of a challenge and, and, but i think i see that back. so i'm gonna think the same thing to be said about some of the questions media portrays, you know, the west that's like most, reinforced by the media waste. and it's very difficult to have a catalog and into that kind of line in the u. k. much as you know, the state of control media in vasa by much harsh is dawson slip, colorado to him, necessarily struggled with our work for a state supporter television, and i'm giving your 0 the ability to say, whatever you want to say this is, makes you, i'm very cold to you for that. now i'd be happy to. the point i'm making is it's

very difficult time to cancel. i commit to the meeting and trist. line it back busha. and that, and the huge range from this become was say, the pasta a, the, i've seen since aren't being involved in, in working with us. and that's by much to be, it's like, you know, given how much she took from the countries and by the need for free speech. it's amazing how difficult to be is to expose all tend to be on a policy tool as usher. well, uh, mr. proud and before we get engaged or rather into ranch the now own arguments, let's take a storage break, but they will be back in a couple of moments. say to the russian states never is as tight as i'm one of the most sense community best

most i'll send send up the same assistant must be the one else calls question about this, even though we will then in the european union, the kremlin mission, the state on the russian scooting and split the ortiz vote net keeping our video agency roughly all the band on due to the fitness center. for the question, did you fix a request for chance? the

welcome back tools, of course with in child a former graders diplomat and also roles and miss fit in most go how british diplomacy failed in russia. now, mr. proud in the book you describe yourself as a realist and human team, the core purpose of diplomacy, and indeed statesmanship is to manage relationship the twin states and to prevent conflict. are you sure that this is still an authentically proceed goal of the u. k . policy? because it does seem from las go, not just in your grant, but also in the middle east, for example, that i'm reading benefits from sparking conflicts rather than solving them. well, i wouldn't necessarily say respond culture to in, in the middle east by the, the, i think the critical, the critical point me is what we're doing to try to try and bring it in to complex . so i'm the world and the i think, you know, the actions could, could lead must all of some criticism degree in golf. so you know where, where we've been quite slow and pushing per se,

saw that. and then everybody caveats it way. i'm like, boys, in, in ukraine where they think he was actually civilian college, the sci fi, that's fine. but on getting demonstration, it's instructions because in that country. so i think uh, you know, that actually, um, i think there's a need to going to be, it is my, you know, a place to, to buy those kinds of public funding. and let me give you a brief, i say, because i in the contract, when i asked about the question, i no, not as given the sort of an immoral istic sense. i ask, it doesn't matter of strategy and tactics. and i do that also with a, uh, an experience of being a reporter on the ground in syria and libya and the, frankly, i mean, it's hard to, or it's hard to process the british role in, in the, in those conflict and say that it was very transparent and moral, and that's why i'm asking you about this because i think it's, uh, it's essentially about positioning of bring the width in the western camp. what

role do you think breton wants to play? and what's the means of fusing? because clearly could not be the alpha player and that's the role is reserved for washington. so what is left there from britain to executive power, to win tenants and funds and also to gain what it wants to gain within the western account? yeah, nothing. we haven't made tonight as the price mentioned to you today about one of all should be because certainly since breaks, you know, when we were determined to break free and take back control of our lives as we break st. and it seems to me that one of the biggest consequences of breaks it is that i don't follow the policy terms. we shouldn't be directed to close alignment with the us. and the, you know, we, us control of policy to, in some of the specs. maybe the old book says book to washington, so, so they weigh it when it may have an identity card. and you see that very much in terms of being culturally tell you, tell them dogs and on the train with, well i'll see is, is everybody closes on the american policy, west main street house in the us. and that is starting to emerge from your client.

nicholas not, i think we, we have to make sense of all these in the world as in the sense that you are paying coaching that we don't, i sort of by being european. but we are, you know, you opinions of the country and how we can work best with you. it being honest, being bad. you can't base and security. i want to ask you about what's going on with them and not necessarily guys and but within the whole middle is today because it's pretty clear that for example, the united states and around do not want to get involved into a direct conflict. but there's sort of perception and i heard it from both the americans and the radians that there's some sort forces that are trying to capitalize on the insecure inches of both sides and are essentially trying to get whatever they can salvage from the american global. as heritage, the americans have withdrawing back to themselves, they're pulling production back to the united states and there's some remnants of the global list economy. some of them concentrated around london that may be beneficial for the u. k. to preserve, do you think you k?

it may be involved in something like this, playing not only against the is proclaimed elements like rational for example, iran, but also against and suppose it alice like the united states. uh, $8.00 and how to take something that's kind of um, applying the sky to be perfectly honest. see that? and in this kind of a saying, i think i think the phone with calls and actually the same only the problem is, is it was, you know, we're not taking a position on the contract that actually making noises in the post solution. but somebody size a solution by some policy named people are being subject tools of terrible, frankly, attacks and injustices and human rights violations. and the, what, so these right people, this of the truthful contest was to type in october of last year. and you know, we need as if we want to have a whole list of states the, we need to kind of give you the, the choice to reconcile the different positions that were assigned and, and,

and as well. and try and find some of the long term solution in concert with an international problem is and exactly the same can be said with, with the company to new playing where, where, you know, we, we, the side with the painting was simple. you claims because on the types of hand that you were in seems to be taking to all the 20 some to the west and bonus. but actually what we need to be do we need is know to promote team. also productively stooped can be kind enough to, to west the new train and bustle and so involved in taking sides that they need some taking sides and complex, which is actually one of the big items that we face in terms of our credibility is as international come to from us, let me ask specifically about this special relationship between most and between washington to london. and as we all know, anyone who has ever been in the hair of those relationships and his special relationship has a fair share of resentment and sometimes even to conceal sabotage. how would you describe at this point of time? i'll send think we uh, the, the ties between uh, london and washington. it,

what are, what is there beyond the public facade and the public crumpling nations of eternal uh, union, and internal friendship? well, we do have a good voice with the us, but it's a relationship. and that is what it is that we're licensed over here. so i'll send that the you are in dentist days last cuz you're not getting what you're ones. you're not, you're not, you're getting a sort of a short stick, a strong down of a shake of the, but it was really on the site. so least you and the contacts have been a couple meetings and you know, 10 times bigger than the economy. and then it's really, it's kind of 10 times bigger than the tree and so on. so, you know, we are very much the junior partner and have a nice chip. and i certainly think we may still virginia and palm a deal is, has advice consign and free trade agreement with us off to after it breaks it in. but nevertheless, you know that be to have us kind of helping them do voc and attacks against a z variables and so on. you know, in the middle east. so i mean,

i think it's somebody and even overlay shit. but to me, all of us on the american times like on the bus and things such as about like come on, we are really dysfunction, your serious issues. we are discussing, actually national treasures and the way you deal with those treasures in a responsible way. and i heard you say ones that you believe the americans of the end of the day are always transactional. and perhaps it's not bad to be transactional because it's, you know, minding what, what you are trying to achieve. do you think the u. k. policy would benefit from being a little bit more transactional and openly so yeah, no, absolutely. and certainly, you know, i'll policy towards china for example, where, where we see as all these times the opposite from a, a both equals russian. we shouldn't pay speed, it'd be just a really engaged with us or the principal level and for the, for that can be but with china, despite the can of course, significant differences, opinion on, on various issues. we nevertheless make, you know, he's evaluating casement so we can have these kind of go to a discussions,

could kind of the conflict, is we need to be, let's do that. we need to be able to have relationships. so that's how you, the good below bad. the recognize the differences exist, but still able to have kind of ground conversations that at the level of need it needs it to live attack. i'm now going to be ukranian of conflict. i think we would both agree the crack. so with is the proposition of nato expansion, which russia has seen and still sees as a core strategic threat. and what i think is far more important. it has the weapons, the strategy, and the political results to defend against what it sees as a threat. and you have, as you have observed, the u. k. together with the u. s. have refused to of knowledge of russia, sensibilities or its ability to, you know, defend whether it's the deems to be a strategic interest. what exactly do they fail to see the, the rest of the concerns which were numerous, we voice on the troops that the russia has assembled,

had assembled on the border in 2021. you know, we, we had the experience some to you guys when they were in georgia. there was an adult by somebody kind of some circumstances. i mean, you know, some of the, the, in the west we should be looking for the piece of the claim that, that is more plus person that is more integrated. we claim to come in and so on. and so for i don't think they think sanction person is consistent, but i do take the when advice you is, i kind of basically the opposed a site expansion. that's nothing new news with no advice for whether that was the case. and we continue to push the sign. i think it, you know, if they agree here at some point i agree this year or maybe next year where we have a seasonal. i knew kindly where the new mouldings have clarity advised that aspiration and, and you know, uh, being over some capacity for the claims via credit spending protected interest in the i see kind of incentives getting self um, you know, back in, in march of 2022 just a month after the, the award starts, it was change signs,

it looks kind of what a, what do you say your on a tight and then shit, know that stuff and that frustration you can see it and you can kind of go mental cycles. but actually, you know, they want to, they take the kinds of skies id, id call you and they wanted, monet to kind of diagnose anybody they'd function and they tools and getting involved. and you could, you could, you can set out the whole thing of protection from, from, you claim to that sly, always this just says if you can maybe join us one day, we don't ask you going to kind of come to a when, when the fighting the fighting sauce and then so he showed it and it's like when they to kind of concession on us from the child. even security shows isn't that sort of thing. and that was and taken off the table. ultimately, the single decide that means it has all the constitutional powers to decide on his country neutrality. but what do you keep referring to doing or being responsible for ukraine, sig, i wonder if you are still in this new case position of a sort of moral print dose. additional can do that for your own sake because, i mean, does the u. k. have the resources available,

the strategy to actually support made enlargement do have the times the weapons of the people to fight against russia in order to implement that as a policy goal of the, you know, finding the, to glad to use look. so i'm so you know, funny you to good you guys, but i mean, i think my view is that actually, um, you know, it's not, it's not a bad thing to it. to move to a site, you can pause, please come to the ukraine in the future. that goes on your self, i mean it's talking about your credit and the evaluation. so it's pretty rarely wasted. all also may say, but you're on your specific point to me to, you know, nasal knowing to the new us new, strong as new a, a, as the twice as large as, as much as all me. so mean that i think maybe even if you all the answers to this allows munitions to support their credit. i mean, you can be sad as you know, some people in america fat, but they, they're not strong. i mean, on 3 can confusing besides with the real strengths here it goes. it's ultimately

about the efficiency of applying your research for assessing. that's result full way that can me to do that. at this point of time, you're going to use it, but nato has never wanted to do a cold training with uh, with washer new claim. but unfortunately, we kind of because the, the idea of making expansion has remained on the table. we've ended up in this kind of awfully has where, you know, we know i, you know, even want to kind of be gauge with the russian and listen to the issues concerns. but neither will be winning touchy fight if you claim to i seeking to hold on to that position, open a to aspiration. i knew this when he comes to the coal, the point that we need to have a final, but hang on. one more is the piece while you claims future state as long as that new, like in terms of receipts made to us space and to see memory past solutions. and so on. sample you find you have to kind of great buy it for you. you may a serious, as i have side as you know, and by 630 and then convert in wanting cds in ukraine. ok. well, mr. proud. uh,

it's been great pleasure for me talking to you. sorry for uh, uh, becoming a little bit spiced into the i guess how it goes, get with the brand based historical and the mazda takes through them. but it's been the most deep, but to get the system that we were able to solve back to the pleasure was on my side as well. thank you very much and thank you to our viewers for watching hope to hear again, honey was a part of the

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