the, the, the, [000:00:00;00] the, the welcome to wells, the part a shuttle a comes remark. some things are easier to know then to explain the russian british relationship is among them. despite numerous efforts to man the historical rivalry, the relationship remains cold and arrogant at best, and poisonous and scheming. as for us, what keeps the ill will so entrenched. well, to discuss them now and join by in town, a former british diplomat,

an officer of miss fit in moscow. how british diplomacy failed in russia, mister proud is, is great to talk to you has been a long while since i had the pleasure of conversing on air with a british gentleman, let alone i made a diplomat. so thank you very much for that. i'm thank you. for inviting me now let's start with your experiences here in laska which you so humorously in describing your book. now you replaced here in between 20142019, which was a pre day and time period starting with russia stayed fully uh, returning to crimea, which i have to say in the u. k. ones coveted and all the way to the still mysterious poisoning of synagogues cripples. so i think it's fair to say that it was the time when uh, the previously politely called relationship turned into

a seething hatred. what was it like to for you to be in the midst of all of this as well? so i see, i wouldn't despise this. so is this evening k 2, but is this setting to that? uh, the relationship say right? quite significantly, during the time that i was in most skate and nothing else, a struggle of and russian coins a lot. and i was able to, i guess, get a more realistic perspective from the name of us. and it's kind of thought about new k. and that i think the page was, was much more mixed. but actually i would be in person, most russian people just wanted to get on with their lives and wanted to have good relationships with, with other countries, including including with a u. k and then company. and for my family, they liked, and most a was, you know, confirmation as most of my have say. and in most regards safety, you know, medical, our past experiences, especially with young children. but it was work wise. yeah. it was a different that different muscles go, of course that that was at times recall tends to between 2018. i'm here in the

title of your book, you're describe yourself as an miss fit in moscow. and given the rising animosity, and during that period i assume that it was pretty uncomfortable for, you know, many british diplomats, i wonder if you were indeed me sit in moscow or rather misleading the british embassy in moscow. well, i think that's what i'm trying to make, but i miss been in the body since the most thing was make such a good low tide. and that's exactly the point. do you compete? you? i mean, you might be, was, was much more problematic in terms of the need to have a relationship. and as i load with all should despite the difficulties you mc countries difficulties, we were talking about about it off to a bite. and so how to do the stuff in 2014 and we'll know that and, and you know, i was fairly alone that much space colleagues in having that be fine was on a didn't, they must have, let me ask a personal question because i know that you're a graduate of solon university,

which is a good school, but not the least one. and in the book, you make a point about not having gone to it and not coming from the patent greed family, which i assume didn't prevent or perhaps even if your curiosity and so the sort of open mindedness about the world. and i wonder if what you describe as miss said has anything to do with social class and exclusive education and the trash 12 years that i saw associated with it? no, i didn't think so. i mean, i think um, i would always be quite comfortable coming forward from class background them replace them by the challenges i use that as a child was able to kind of get you and buffy education and enjoying the many as they just kind of falling off it's volunteering program that they've already made a higher for me. i think the big get advantage. why hasn't life was going on? i the season jim. he's the to assign years of my life. and that was inside. it has to be experience, you know, something when i started sold it,

when the less living in its own country and have the access and experience info, totally different cultures, languages to the one that was used to that for me it wasn't really kind of a good experience and i think very much the mistake was about not agreeing with the u. k. policy on machine isn't tardy. i still get my job. i still have control of do you have policies with best of my abilities? both are trying to innovation, so by the direction of that policy just continue to stay. now maybe it's a russian bias, but i think one of the most common words used here in the russian to describe british policies, era goes sometimes coupled with ignorance. and i wonder if it's era, if this aragon so, you know, sort of this a moral high ground that the brits or the british a policy makers sometimes assume these are the, our country. whether it is in any way related to that. i'm bringing within those very selective institutions from, you know, from school and all the way to the foreign service. one not, i don't think so necessarily. i mean, we've had

a tall secretaries and the last kind of 10 years and see cutting costs is started. david cameron, obviously the account. uh so the site part of the problem is that he did codes and you can but we finals its different chase. uh, you know that as well in the other can 7 phones x rays that i think what you think has necessarily anything to do with it on the bill, just to begin transfuse notice within a physical circles but within the media as well and have say, you know that, but you can try to squeeze in motion as well in physical settings and then the rushing media by the case everybody wants to talk about that because i'm not, i'm not sure that's actually the case. and i suggest we started our discussion with many people. remember about that, but the one of the 1st, the visits that vladimir putin made as they knew the elective had upstate and back in april 200-2000 actually you know, 24 years ago was to the u. k. as i think it was specifically meant to convey a good, well and an ad for a to ma'am,

the historical i mentioned between our countries. because for centuries, who have been scheming, and tells me each other in a great eurasia, and yet uh, one of his 1st intentions was to sort of ma'am, those ties. and yet, 24 years later, we still haven't been able to bury the hatchet. why do seeing if there's this because i'm sure on the russian side that have been efforts to do something. yeah, man, i think that'd be difference on both sides of the different times. they've just followed by the way side of things like in from the lack of consistency in leadership on the pay side. spend 15 to, you know, we've had the 75 missing stay doing that. pay that you talk about, you know, mean i and god bless can thank you my number's on site 335 during that time. so we haven't really had best if it was the principal level that has exist on the russian side. but nevertheless, those, those moments, you know, when present breeding came to you, k, u k must send busy. they were still big differences on policy issues on the box.

for example, when you walk on something you chasing, you know, uh for example, unless there was still a little come into the case. i can really kind of recognize the polls, but i see them of us at that time. likewise and thing to be counted in 2010, you know, he wanted to kind of really have a positive relationship with us. and i think that was as and say it is on his ball and i'm pretty much lost it through to, you know, being of to 2017. when are you still have to come distracted by his attempt about, you know, you won't call june kept on being a, you paid commission present. so you know, when those efforts that does happen on the case certainly have thing must be meaningful. the difficulty was that suddenly, when haven't came public sector in 2014, we would invite vital hasting, i'm going to use my came 5 minister in 2016 that we hold. he's still stored in bed . you know, the u. k. governmental level and it has to be to ship it until this same continues . now can i ask you about what you decide that, you know,

a number of politicians are where it seems here in including camera and then they were sincere about hearing rushes concerns. what exactly you mean by that biggest for us, it's not enough just to voice or be heard a rational once it's security concerns to be recognized and dealt with. i mean, the action is also important, not just, you know, like we are not going to the west to be, you know, a client of a psych, a therapist, the we, we, we actually won the, the, to be dealt on the common basis and on the equal basis yeah, no, i totally get that. but i'll see, you know, cameron's engagement with some, you know, appointments may be different than the present made of and then present paging. pre dates, you know, to be honest with you kind causes and others used to talk back about time. you know where, where we are mutually just increasing the kind of city became a, you know, and the wise and that, and that was kind of good discussions on natural. they've been kind of for the box because listening. so i'll make sure you buy it, which means you guys send you

a $1000000.00 and save it as you live and in care. there is a disagreements on that unless you know that despite the difference, is that on some policy issues, those over the intent to move forward on, you know, some most amazing engagement, sometimes changes. and, you know, for example, how long was really sincere, actually believing all in wanting to see a really successful and safe um, you know, new beginnings. and so she had the solar 2014 and it automatically went into that before that kind of recurring costs. as we have salanza and coming, visited the pacific region. and so let's see. so maybe so genuine, definitely it's nicole as you call the boot and everything. that's impossible. and obviously, i think we're on everything with the us, for example, a lot of it kind of, you can partners, but there was a real desire to kind of collaborate the in areas where it made sense. so seduce, so why that's us. now, since we mentioned kudos 1st visit to the u. k, let me ask you about the last at least until now. and it was in 2013 within the

framework of g age in which you play the major organizing role one. do you remember from that the rent? oh, i mean, i remember that can make music was really good between cameron and page and it was an i c, i'm button on the off to, you know, cameras visit to i just saw cheat sort by city and other things and no, no, no off to actually that amazing, know the end of the day we come on with some petersburg for the g 20 summit and there was some real areas of power. also from the cold place that alignment on policy on g g, 20 issues, particularly in tax transparency and things of that. so yeah, there's some really good areas of collaboration that on j g g trying to kind of policy called say it is a, you know, the patron was very welcome in northern the that time i live, she comes to my place in personal, myself, don't occasions on the side tables a different time, but obviously you get an understanding that was some pretty bad music gene facing

the bomb. it looks kind of custody of them all their lives at the time because of a single day is to ask you about this. this is something that stands out the most for me and not so much in substance of terms, but then emotional terms. because we only remember that footage of uh, obama, seeing uh, in a very demonstrative lee bore it. and some would say arrogant fashion on the part in the cross and known shalanda clinton. and maybe it's just a russian bias. but i think there is a strong perception in russia, the west sort of maintains it's a moral grandiosity of rushes expands that obama sort of had to meet with a put in by duty. but he wasn't your interest signaling that he is morally above it . how common do you think that is for the west in general, all 5, using russia as, as a scapegoat for its own shadow. i think it is certainly to uh, in the west um to, um, you know, we, we take,

uh so many policy might decide to buy a normative deal and policy that, you know, but we don't engage with auction because we don't some of the bushes actions the initial back smith taking the call to is to be kind but on, on other issues as well. nation since we have on it and so on. so i wouldn't necessarily sutherlands back on the body countries. other thing that that's, that's a bit of a challenge and, and, but i think that she got back some i'm gonna think the same thing to be said about some of the questions media portrays, you know, the west that state machine close by the media waste in his by difficult to have a catalogue mid to that kind of line here in the u. k. a much as you know, the state of control media in vasa by much, which is the option slip. pensacola, the show, it was our work for a state supported television, and i'm giving your 0 the ability to say whatever you want to say this is makes you, i'm very cold to you for that. now i'd be happy. the point i'm making is it's very difficult time to cancel. i commit to the meeting and trist. line it back busha.

and that, and that hadn't changed from this become was like the past decade i've seen since aren't being involved in, in was from joshua. it's by much to be, it's like, you know, given how much she told from the countries and by the need for free speech. it's amazing how difficult to be is to expose all tend to be on a policy towards russia. well, mr. proud and before we get engaged or rather entrenched the now own arguments, let's take a short break, but they will be back in a couple of moments, say to the russian states. never as i've started as soon as the most sense community,

best of all sense and up the in the system must be the one else calls question about this, even though we will then in the european union, the kremlin move. yep. mission, the state on the rush, putting s r t sports net keeping our video agency roughly all the band on youtube. the services for the question, did you see a request for chat? the, [000:00:00;00] the

welcome back tools, of course with in child a former graders diplomat and also roles and miss fit in most go how british diplomacy failed in russia. now, mr. proud in the book, you describe yourself as a realist and human team, the core purpose of diplomacy, and indeed statesmanship is to manage relationship the twin states and to prevent conflict. are you sure that this is still an authentic? we proceed. goal of the u. k. policy because it does seem from las go not just in your grant, but also in the middle east, for example, that i'm reading benefits from sparking conflicts rather than solving them. well, i wouldn't necessarily say respond culture to in, in the middle east by the, the, i think the critical, the critical point me is what we're doing to try to try and bring it in to conflict . so in the world, and they, i think, you know, the actions could, could, the must, all of some criticism degree in golf. so you know where,

where we've been quite slow and pushing per se, saw that. and then everybody kind of got to wait, unlike boys in, in ukraine where they think he was actually civilian college, the sci fi, that's fine. but on getting demonstration, it's disruptions because in that country. so i think uh, you know, that actually, um, i think there's a need for going to be, it is my, you know, a place to, to buy those kinds of public funding. and let me do it before i say, because i in the contract, when i ask the question, i don't not ask it in the sort of in a more realistic sense. i ask it doesn't matter of strategy and tactics. and i do that also the west uh uh, an experience of being a reporter on the ground in syria and libya and the, frankly, i mean, it's hard to, or it's hard to process the british role in, in the, in those conflict and say that it was very transparent and moral and that's why i'm asking you about this because i think it's uh, it's essentially about positioning of bread,

the within the western camp. what role do you think brenton wants to play and what's the means of fusing? because clearly could not be the alpha player and that's role is reserved for washington. so what is left there from britain to exert its power to win tenants in fines and also to gain what it wants to gain within the western account? yeah, nothing. we haven't made the night as the price mentioned to you today about one of all should be because certainly since breaks, you know, we were determined to break free and take back control of our lives as we break st . and it seems to me that one of the biggest consequences of breaks it is that they come follow the policy terms. we sent egypt due to close the line with the us. and the, you know, we, us control of policy to, in some of the specs. maybe the old book says book to washington. so, so they weigh it when it may have an identity card. and you see that by emotion times of the kinds which i found dogs and on the train with, well, obviously it is. it's very close on many american policy, west main street house in the us, and that is starting to emerge from your client. nicholas not, i think we,

we have to make sense of all these in the world as in the sense that you are paying comfortable with. and i sort by being european, but we are, you know, your opinions of the country and how we can work best. we do being honest, being bad, you can peace and security. i want to ask you about what's going on with them and not necessarily guys and but within the whole middle is today because it's pretty clear that for example, the united states and around do not want to get involved into a direct conflict. but there's sort of perception and i heard it from both the americans and the radians that there's some 3rd forces that are trying to capitalize on the insecure inches of both sides and are essentially trying to get whatever they can salvage from the american global. as heritage, the americans have withdrawing back to themselves, they're pulling production back to the united states and there's some remnants of the global list economy. some of them concentrated around london that may be beneficial for the u. k. to preserve, do you think you k?

i may be involved in something like this, playing not only against the is proclaimed elements like rational for example iran, but also against and suppose it alice like the united states. uh $8.00. right. and how to take. so i think that's kind of um, applying this guy to be perfectly honest. see that? and in this kind of a saying, i say, no, i think the problem with jobs and actually the same only the problem is, is it was, you know, we're not taking a position on the call, treat that actually recognize as a need for solution. but somebody size a solution, the voice of the policy name, people are being subject tools of terrible, frankly, attacks and injustices and human rights violations. and the what cities right people this of the truthful contest was to type in october of last year. and you know, we need as if we want to have all those states the, we need to kind of give you the, the choice to reconcile the different positions that were assigned and, and,

and as well. and try and find some of the long term solution in concert with the international problems. and exactly the same can be said with, with the company to nucleic where, where, you know, we, we, the side with the painting was simple. you claims because on to types apparently, although it seems to be taking to all the 20 some to the west bond is. but actually, what we need to be do we need is known to promote team also productively stupid community creating most of the west to the new train and bustle and so involved in taking sides that they need some taking sides and contracts, which is actually one of the big items that we face in terms of our credibility is as international come to from us. let me ask specifically about this special relationship between most and between washington, the london. and as we all know, anyone who has ever been in the heart of those relationships and his special relationship has a fair share of resentment and sometimes even um, conceal sabotage. how would you describe at this point of time? i'll send typically, uh the, the ties between uh,

london and the washington. what are, what is there beyond the public facade and the public truck limitations of a terminal union and internal friendship will lead, have a good voice with the us, but it's a relationship. but it's the relationship here yourself said that the and you're in dentist a is lost. if you're not getting what you're ones, you're not, you're not. and you're getting a sort of a short stick, a strong down the shape of the by it was going on the site, so least you and the contacts. and they call me this, you know, 10 times bigger than the economy. and then it's really, it's kind of 10 times bigger than the 3 and so on. so, you know, we are very much the junior partner in the relationship. and i certainly think we may still virginia and palm a deal is hasn't boss consigned to free trade agreement. with us off to after it breaks it in, but nevertheless, you know, that be to have us kind of helping them g vargas attacks against a z variables and so on. you know, in the middle east. so i mean,

i think get somebody and even overlay shit, but to me all of us and go american times like of us and finds such as about like, come on, we are reading this, nothing serious issues. we are discussing actually national treasures and the way you deal with those treasures in a responsible way. and i heard you say ones that you believe that americans abandoned the day are always transactional. and perhaps it's not bad to be transactional because it's, you know, minding what, what you are trying to achieve. do you think the u. k. policy would benefit from being a little bit more transactional and openly so yeah, no, absolutely. and then you certainly you the dog policy towards china, for example, where, where we see as all these terms, the opposite from a policy as well as russia. we shouldn't pay speed, it'd be just a really engaged with. i should have physical level infer that can be but with china despite it can of course evening and induce differences of opinion on, on various issues. we nevertheless make you nice environment engagement so that we can have these kind of guy got a discussions, could kind of the conflict, is we need to be,

let's do that. we need to be able to relationship. so that's how you to good little bad the recognize the differences exist, but still able to have kind of ground conversations at the level of need to lease it to a lot of attack. i'm now going to the ukranian of conflict. i think we would both agree the crack so with is the proposition of later expansion which russia has seen is still sees as a course strategic threat. and what i think is far more important. it has the weapons, this strategy and the political result to defend against what it sees as a threat. and he has, as you have observed, the u. k. together with the u. s. have refused to, of knowledge of russia, sensibilities or its ability to, you know, defend whether it's the deems to be it's strategic interest. what exactly do they fail to see the, the rest of the concerns which were numerous, we voice on the troops that the russia has assembled,

had assembled on the border in 2021. you know, we, we had the experience some to you guys night with the wood, georgia that was in it posted by somebody kind of some circumstances. i mean, you know, some of the, the, in the west we should be looking for the piece of the claim that, that is more plus person that is more integrated with the claim to come in. so on the side for i don't think they think slicing person is consistent, but i did take the when and but she was so kind of basically the opposed a site expansion. that's nothing new news with no advice for whether it was the case. and we continue to push the sign. i think it, you know, if they agree here at some point i agree this year or maybe next year where we have a c sign, you kindly, we already knew monique's have clarity about that aspiration and, and you know, uh, being over some capacity for the claims um, the carding spending protected as interest in the uh she can of incentives give yourself um, you know, back in, in march of 2022, just a month after the the award starts. it was showing signs, it looks kind of with

a way you can say york on a tight and then shit, know that stuff and that frustration you can see it and you can kind of go mental cycles. but actually, you know, they wanted me to the kinds of skies i do. thank you kindly and they wanted more than a day kind of diagnosing anybody they'd function and they tools and getting involved . and you could, you could, you could send that out. the whole thing of protection from, from the claim to that sly, always the sure sense if you can maybe join us one day we don't ask you can that kind of come to a when, when the fighting with the fighting sauce and then so he showed it and it's like when they to kind of concession on us on the child's even security shows isn't that sort of thing. and that was in tell, you can also take the physical decide. i mean, she has all the constitutional powers to decide on his country neutrality. but when do you keep referring to doing or being responsible for your crane sake? i wonder if you are still in this new case position of a sort of more old friend do us additional can do that for your own sake?

because, i mean, does the u. k, have the resources available? the strategy to actually support made enlargement do have the times the weapons of the people to fight against russia in order to implement that as a policy goal might be, you know, finding me to guide you so, so i'm so you know, funding you to good guys but i mean, i think my view is that actually, um, you know, it's not, it's not a bad thing to it, to move to a safe and prosperous country, the ukraine in the future that goes on the south. i mean, it's talking about your credit and the evaluation is pretty evaluation and i'll also may say, but yeah, on your specific point to me, to, you know, nasal knowing to the new us new, strong as new a, as the twice as large as, as much as all me, so mean that the, even if you all the munitions to support their credit, i mean, you can be sad as you know, some people in america fat, but they, they're not strong. i mean, on 3 can confusing besides with the real strengths here,

because it's ultimately about the efficiency of applying your research, assess. and that's results full way that can me to do that. at this point of time, you're going to use it, but nato has never wanted to do a cold training with uh, with flushing new claim. but unfortunately, you kind of, because maybe the idea of making expansion has remained on the table. we've ended up in this kind of awfully has where, you know, we know we know who wants to, can we gauge with the russian and listen to the issues concerns. but neither will be winning touchy fight if you claim to i so you can hold on to that position of ebony to aspiration. i do this when he comes to the coal, the point that we need to have a final, but hang on one more is the piece where you claims future state is one is that look like in terms of the season, a task space and to see memory best solutions and so on. sample you find you have to kind of group i had for you. if it may be a serious, as i have side as the do not mean by 630 in the convict. didn't want him cds in ukraine. ok. well, mr. proud uh,

it's been great pleasure for me talking to you. sorry for uh, uh, becoming a little bit spicy through the end. i guess how it goes, get with the brand based historical, and the mazda takes through them. but it's been the most deep, but to get the system that we have, we have a soap passing to the pleasure was on my side as well. thank you very much. and thank you to our viewers for watching hope to hear. and young hunter was

a part of the the the question is security service is eliminate 6. all i so linked to militants in southern russia who were involved in a shootout with offices open nights just as the flood is being reported, there is a very serious matter. and that is why it is now being investigated very carefully, very intensively and very quickly. the german chan slow all up sholtes comments for the 1st time on those bull. michelle revelations of high ranking german military stuff. we're planning to help you frame this for you, this one in bridge, and runing disturbing images or had a cold blooded