as prominent us to call them as told us, polly is democracy, being web and not really engaging conversation this one on it gets going involvement, stick the tone and welcome to was a part of the populace singles. you can never get an alpha. what you don't have, but it's on thousands store people or whole nations from trying to get more balls than more than economy on today's politics. private candidates own goals and

objectives that have little to do with a meaningful or balanced life. quite the contrary, they often the manufacturing dependence is in conflict as a way of sustaining themselves can be changed out of soul by whom to discuss it. i'm now in joined by thomas family and american economists. also, there are several books including plenty of nothing. and they found are all the economics for democratic and open societies project. mr. bailey, it's a great honor and great pleasure for me to talk to. thank you very much for your time. well, thank you very much for inviting me. i'm looking forward to this. now you're not only a prominent economy, but also i think there's some extend an economic your story and, and what i really like about here our approach is that the, your factor in a psychology culture, morality as a way of explaining uh, economic behavior of people or whole nations and using this a very comprehensive plan. so i want to start by asking, where do you think the global economy assigns itself at this very point i want on.

so in terms of strong weak what i think i'd like to use of a school mazda, i'll give it a grade. i give it a c great. and of course, to understand the global economy, it consists just pieces. and so i, i don't think that that being is 3 pieces of significance right now. the 1st of course is the united states as your up and then at a school, the rest of the world. uh, and in the united states we're having a macro economic go see to now stock market now cash and so on. but there's a lot of discontent on the ground. and i would say to people that boom is very much a financial boom. and so things can and i suddenly was finance, i buy say, i guess as a something that's a substitute, but it may be insightful. the longer it goes on, the closer we are, because again,

with your, of the economies, we is quite clear that there either in recession, both on the edge of recession in and in the rest of the world, the economy is stagnant. and in the background, there's a good possibility of some sort of financial problems, financial crisis from the accumulated debt put that together. and the best that you can say is. and so she, great, i mentioned in the introduction that you are the founder of the economics for democratic and open societies projects. and there is very terms, democratic and open society is a very hard to define because um, you know, america for example, considers itself as, as the mode of democracy. but the, the, the current choice for president. so you have this here is quite narrow. and so i would say disappointing. so i like being the quality of that open society is quite debatable. what do you put into those terms? what does it mean to have a democracy or to have an open society in this day and age?

the to open society comes from list the last of uh, uh, call pop up and it should have come to publish views on such as people think that the truth is accessible, that there is a truth out there and we can get a pop up showed that even in science that is not possible. and it's really a very clear why. we just don't know what's going to happen tomorrow. i mean we, we book it the size, the garage, but we have to admit that we copy something because we don't know the future. so it is possible, it is to sea level and i buy one day, probably the song world rise. but what's true and shines is even more true in social science and what we know about societies. so if we con no the troops, we must always keep an open mind to the possibility that we are wrong. and we need institutions that govern us and arrange social life in that way. and that's why, although what's happened to the poor, elizabeth is not because persian such

a great thing in itself, but it's the only way that we have to have dealing with this very fundamental problem. and that's what i mean by organs aside. well, it's interesting, it's something else going well. uh i was going to continue on because i'm interested is obviously in the eye of the beholder and we in rush, we even have 2 words for the concept of truth. one is something that is internal and not accessible. to human sense and the other one that is very personal, but in my society at least there is such a concept as justice and say are, and this, and this is something that also in the beholder. and yet there's some social dimensions that could be sort of worked towards and achieved when you mentioned that the american economy is now that it's boom. do you think um this boom is democratically distribute at one person's ok. there's another button to block and that's true of social life, but these are, i think we've been so that's why we have to sort of socially negotiate them. and

that's part of how politically, what, what a good political system does. is it twice and negotiates them in a way that delivers or big are all joined together? same roughly reasonable for our outcomes in the united states. clearly not. there's a tremendous in a quality. and there's a lot of on the happiness, as i said on the ground, but people struggled to make it me to us by the way, honest the course of all political problems. and by the way, it's actually very much why i started this economics for democratic and open societies project because i used to work with the labor union shit. and i also worked for a while with georgia national. i knew i was not such a popular speaker anymore and russian. i'm, but the idea of was say, if you want to society, you have to ask yourself, what is the economic basis that will support it? and by the way, that's what george soros never did. and that's why i believe his project is ultimately failed. it never engaged this question. what is the economic system that

will support democracy? what is the economic system that will support open society? and this is a question that flashed to be on the table. and we, in the united states and europe has failed. all the countries are trying to answer it in different ways and i understand what, why they're doing it, they come from a different, it is a place to start to. well, let, let's talk about that because i think that question is at the very correct some deal politics today they bought in administration, often uses this theme of the, as the central fight of democracy is against a talker says, and obviously that includes russia in the list of a talker says, but uh, i know from my personal experience uh, covering many international meetings that they stand as primarily use with domestic consumption internationally. big democracy is like india, brazil, south africa. they couldn't be bothered about out of countries, political or ideological organization. they're mostly concerned about mutual trade

about crime, about trans border issues, you know, print maddox matters. why do you think this uh, theme of democracy is so prominent or danger to democracy, so prominent in the united states, why is it outwardly rather than inwardly focused on who is a danger to who are here? a very good light so much that i yes i, i agree that the, the day in the united states, all foreign policy establishment, all national security establishment is a weapon audition to pursue i don't believe we have any interest in promoting democracy that i don't even know what democracy is, do they the, that that's, let's go to the, what i, i think i think we have a rough idea of what democracy is. good. more and more people realize that it's not working here. but let's stay with the point that this is a very important point of view. as to here is how we have westernized democracy as

a way of attacking other countries. it becomes a cloak where our own regression, it becomes a way of flushing other countries on the back foot and effect our record shows that we're not really that much into democracy, that we have about low low strip interfering in other countries when they produce democratic outcomes we don't like, we have a long history of collaborating with and i'm democratic countries and we have a very slaughter understanding democracy, how democracy is deter, ready, con, be the, uh, the evidence of for a country that says its in favor of democracy. we have work to do cattle, we should stop trying to end up being in depth as with all those internal affairs about us. i want to ask you um, the question that the just popped into my mind. i, i'm citing psychology and both collective around individual psychology and whenever you all started doing psychological work or any developmental work,

your starts where you are and it's not a linear progress. but essentially, you're sol, wireless, you will even move to the next on. there's some regression always with what is important is to treat yourself with patients with empathy to invest in your development them to treat yourself seriously. where does this idea that societies can somehow arrive a democracy over all of a sudden that they can be indoctrinated into democracy? come from because i simply don't understand how such a cult, complicated and complex organism as a, as a car, as a country could become a democracy over night. they, when they for institutions are brought there. well, i think that again, that, that is really of the essence here. and that's why i talked about the united states weapon rising democracy. we know that democracy is very hard to come back to a very long historical process to each country has its own historical conditions.

some have been more advantaged and more fortunate than others. perhaps the chocolate provisions of geography, perhaps variations of where scientific revolution landed earlier or not, but the actual regions of culture. but so we know that you cannot just a lot democracy over not. and it's in that way that the united states is what the nice and democracy i would say the but i go section countries go ahead of the game a little bit. and they were advantage. but now they've turned it around where other countries are trying to find ways of improving livingstone outage for their citizens. a strengthening back of an inch improving the state of, of the us, united states as if you know that democracy, your enemy, and then the company, it was the very common was this terrible story? that's true. oh, the washington same tax. yeah. as they should have access to more talk procedures. and this is part of that, there's an autocratic alliance around the world. ended simply in denver pushing and

this is part of what, how they drum up, the impression supports nationalism. i don't know, i have support for the military support for these before who was have intervention . of course, it could be false if i be able to, it says the exact opposite. look at the history of who has been involved in was over the last 20 years, which the us look something black, the defense budgets, the united states defense budget is 10, is as large as the next 10 countries. we'll add it together right now. and i hope it doesn't last is that the united states is leading aggression against these other countries. i don't know how to get that. but if people are willing to look at the evidence, and if people are willing to consider the other pop proposition, then we will just be led to by the nose, which is what's happening right now and all politics. and which is particularly the case in europe, right. now, well and mr. paley, we have to take a very short break,

but we will come back to this conversation in a short while police station. the take a fresh look around his life. kaleidoscopic isn't just a shifted reality distortion by power to division with no real opinions. fixtures designed to simplify will confuse really once a better wills, and is it just as a chosen few fractured images presented as 1st. can you see through their illusion going underground? can the

welcome back to wells appointments, thomas bailey, an american economist, and the founder of the economics for democratic and open societies. project. mr. paley, as we have been talking before they break, it's impossible to ask for democracy. but i wonder if american policy makers understand the democracy also needs maintenance. it's impossible to keep it at a terminal without actually doing much for dissing that resonates with the americans. because i think the american society, there is a lot of this and of history sort of feel. and they assume that once they arrive the democracy, nothing has to be done and it will be there forever. it can be taken from granted. i think you're too nice to say that they think of it in terms of the end of history, then all that intellectual allow, i'll lead us what we have is capture. i mean we have for what democracy.

and actually each one of the interesting, even the think i read recently in the economist magazine that does have a democracy index on the economist has quite a right wing magazine. and it said that the united states was a floor democracy. and, and, and we've had them not when there's no conversation really about in prison. i'm eldest some and g o. she had some incentive last people to say that we need to make changes. but there's no, does, i mean, think of an i sent 100 senators to sunday, which is the state so that while maine was 650000 people has the same representation to senators. as california was 43000000 people. and we have a huge problem of gerrymandering when we use computers. now draw all boundaries so that we can really get the biggest advantage why they want to group the cost of them all together. they, when the sheet was an 80 percent 20 percent about the adult, the dominant body then rearranges the rest of the map. so they can win the sheets,

which say 52 to 48 percent. that way you can actually control the deluxe, even if you don't have a majority representation. indeed, by the way, but i think this happened twice already our presidential election, remember george bush got fewer total votes than algo donald trump got fewer total dutch than hillary clinton. if that happened in another country, guess what i'm media would be saying, i saw, i think what, what blind to it. yeah, we could manage this thing. we could drop competitive districts encourage competition. we could talk different ways of counting voltage. so we have to be only the equipment to do it, but above all, the system is locked down and bo, and by big money, the rich part of this country, and that it works with the corporations, they own the system. so we have an extremely toward democracy, right now, i don't think the economist does anything like enough justice to house more we are,

but at least it has the guy in the stage says notes. and i think that's, i mean, you highlighted all the challenges associated with getting to power. but i think there is also a 2nd part of how one uses the power and whether, you know, the governing structures enough to implement a substantial change in the lives of the people. because ultimately politics exist for governance and it has to do some practical work around that non day either way around. now, um, what elaborate is at this point, are you seeing an average american pass to not only a gag his or her interest voiced or heard, but actually pursued by the, by the politicians or elected leaders in the, in defense of spanish. yeah, let, let me just roll back up the system, the problem of capture and not being responsive to change ethics every system and also, or a terry and systems as you learned in russia, in the, in the years,

a good call in the call me and sylvia deborah could be pretty unresponsive and could be pretty captured. so every political system needs to think about this problem. if you want to talk about the united states, well, uh can i stop here here? and because i don't wanna it to be only about the united states because, i mean the restaurant is often referred to, isn't a talk or see, but i, i know for sure for sure that i have a lot of lovers for example. and there's something in my neighborhood just a couple of weeks ago, there was something like in my backyard i, i made a call, i wrote a complaint on, you know, a couple of hours later it was illuminated. so there are many mechanisms in russia to actually influence life on the ground about the if can be, are here that you know why the important has been in power for so long. but if you actually look at the, you know, the, all 4 of the candidates for the upcoming presidential elections, we have 5 of them in the running. and some of them are pretty young and the, you know, handsome and attractive. but uh, the population, a student seems to be, uh, honestly and i'll send typically voting in favor of

a certain party. now you may dislike it in the united states, but i think part of that has to do with the advocacy of governance. and this is one more question that i want to ask you, how like in focusing on labels so much whether any particular government is a democracy or, and that's a talk or see on the losing side of what it actually deliveries for the people. because people don't care whether it's put in or by then you know, what's the last name, more logical affiliation. they, they care and whether, you know, they bring something that bring something that are into their lives. but yes, i, i know what it is interpreted my was just making a general point that every political system confronts this problem. and quite clearly, russia has a political, says some ellis political competition. and there's to that, that's about, there's a lively politics that, i mean, that's part of the misrepresentation, nebraska and china to in our society essex, i have no box politics is if the president is a, is a dictator. he's not,

he works within a political, we don't care what's, i mean like the rest of the culture of the uh, warrant is important, but uh, what stands, what supports that's more it is more important than the worth itself. kind of, after the president is clearly popular, he wins the election by popular consent. i want to say also that again, i want to come back and talk is a good bad. i'm not an expert or an internal affairs in russia. i want to talk about the rush or us relationship. i think what we, what we are doing, actually, if we were interested in democracy, that were saying we're doing is actually a set back to democracy. because a lot of countries attacked from the outside us. i believe we've been engaged not a military attack, but in a slow motion, more of aggression on the border stage with a long term time. i would say this if, if i put it on the table here, maybe we'll discuss it. i would say that within the united states, within the state department of the pentagon,

the appliances apart to try and deconstruct brush it, just as the soviet union fell apart, the fractures where the republics. so 2 people here believe they can do the same thing with russia itself. the russians need to understand. then i'd stage as a long term and meant to your gauge, russia. and by attacking it, produced for china, it actually encourages the retreat from democracy. this is, by the way, also what happened in this country, often 911. when we were attacked by a criminal gang, the bush administration use it as cause to roll back out democrats to really i'm not sure i would agree with their here because, i mean, i think i decided that the american policy is not very friendly towards either russian or china is pretty clear, but, and on the, on the other hand, i mean, you may have these as are several intentions. but as an economist, you know, you need to, you know, fortify them by actual means of achieving them. and the russians have known about

that all along and they put the efforts and money into creating a military sector into a strength thing that defensive and also into making sure that the economy is self sufficient. the same goes for china. i wonder if the american leads who have this hedge and warning intentions actually do that whole or to, you know, do the numbers to make sure that they can achieve those goals. whatever those goals are practically not just to inform of wishful thinking. but practically, well that, that, that, that's obviously a big debate and this is the big picture debate that is taking place inside. yeah, i think that there is a recalibration taking place. you may have heard of globalization being on the rock such as well. i'm the original go coming out of this sort of the end of history store. it was and it used to be cool. that sort of the wall street model of globalization was still edit. states was going to become at the headquarters of world capital. well,

wall street was going to be the course and then it would have judy a part in this much like say, britain today is a junior partner or a gentleman. he is a junior, i thought another hope was that china and russia would come on as junior partners and they didn't accept that with good reason. but they didn't know i, i read a recent book about it. it's called southern pre owned as a buy in australia and also with the system was subbing i was a, any pre owned by the united states below which somebody imperial palace, those shopping periods. bosh, some foreign policy is already, but it's all subservient to the end of the imperial power. then they're all the actual states who have no foreign policy rights at all. and then this arrest, this was sort of the low speed model, and it's on a part of what the united states was going to run the world, speak spanish. and it was really to outsource shortage manufacturing. and this i thought it was gonna work and it doesn't work and be in the united states,

just recalibrating as a result, we are trying to bring back some manufacturing. but we're recalibrating it to as a little bit of i don't see, i don't know how much we can bring back. instead we've gone on the side of aggression. so we do things like 5 blocks of trust or technology. we try to exclude others, and we try to shop a tosh. the economic develop the developers, and maybe if need be, we'll con, i think russia responding through ukraine is wrong. so the board to state activities to nato latrice with maybe military force. so all of the, the us so the does very much aware of the problem and if this recalibrating the search, it's not it, but whether it will work or not. it's another issue. i think the world has its own and thinking to do and uh, when i attends various international organizations. and since with many countries actually choosing the path as of the own, you know,

of intellectual and sometimes industrial economic autonomy because they don't no longer want to rely on anyone for a strategic decisions. and that's an interesting development. and sometimes i get a sense that um, you know, many of them i have this not only sort of urging a sovereignty, but i also am sort of a lack of understanding why the united states is resisting the adaptive flow of history. because they many of them see what's happening right now. notice the purpose will decline of that was with rather as the rising of the rest of the world on each country bringing you know, its own strength and the weaknesses to the for and that's normal. i mean, this is a big world. we all want to develop and you know how to child and developed. i sometimes wonder if all this talk about the end of history is ultimately a cover for the united states. not being able to afford itself to have this

historical, on long view perspective, because russia has a china has in brazil has a many countries that have transitional governments haven't, but it seems that the united states, as for eval, locked in the, you know, election campaigning rather than a real discussion of, on how the country should be governed and what are the priorities and the distribution of responsibilities between big money as a social organization and social welfare of virtual or economy to chris, really a last few countries that can really be anything like or thomas, i should be like the night states is about as close as you can get to that. it's a, it's a, it's, it's caught on to a size 350000000 people counted extra, the northwest, a lot of resources, mexico to the south with a lot of people do the north american economy can essentially go it alone. i don't a rush. i can, i don't know that china,

china is indeed that the resources towards large population is manufacturing. and so, so the rest of the world is a lot to be doing from a to existing into a peaceful world that promotes economic development. and that's what i was talking about this indeed for night, but, and that's why i think it's such a tragedy to shift in world, in a direction that practiced it in this way. i think it was the really the verizon so rushed should be seen as a blessing. this is a way that we are going to right, raise livingstone, improve political life throughout the world when they did it states because it sees itself and then it. so an imperial ends, and this is, it runs very deep into the culture and the people, but ordinary people see it in those towns to the same crazy way that i'll own new york on policy make us do. but it's very easy, then you have to add, you do

a somehow exceptional that you do your wish, right? but the right to do this, you want, if you have this imperial mind, then it's very easy to turn the rise of the rest into a 0 sum game. and when you try it into a 0 sum game, then you're going to have been talking. wow, even if you are exceptional or shining city on the hill, that $1000.00 free your, from my doing some basic reality checks. and then you can look at basic economic indicators of the united states to see how much or how little dog has brought to an ordinary american over the last, the 20 or 30 years. anyway, mr. paley, we have to leave it there. i wish i had more time with you, but thank you very much for this se like me in discussion. thank you for inviting. i've enjoyed it. thank you. and thank you for watching hope to share again on the world's a part of the

the

russian forces pushed ahead at the front clearing mines left by retreating ukrainians villages. while the french pressed that doubles down on coals to send the troops to craig, as long as control the sea for trying to get nato allies on board. as india said, stepping up trade with russia in defiance of western pressure. we sit down to discuss the prospects with these folks. person of india is really not the position from listing board does not see any certificate or dictation from the rest of the work regarding it. by russia.