lea, a prominent economist, but also i think there's some extend an economic your story. and, and what i really like about here approach is that the, your factor in a psychology culture, morality as a way of explaining uh, economic behavior of people or whole nations. and using these very comprehensive plans, i want to started by asking, where do you think the global economy finds itself at this very point i want on? so in terms of strong weak what i think i'd like to use of a school last a, i'll give it a grade. i give it a see great. and of course, to understand the global economy, it consists of pieces. and so i, i don't think that that being is 3 pieces of significance right now. the 1st of course is the united states. and this your up and then at a school the rest of the world uh, and in the united states were having a macro economic boom. shooting out stop marketing on cash and so on. but there's

a lot of discontent on the ground. and i would say to people that boom is very much a financial bill. and so things can and i suddenly was finance. i, if i say, i guess there isn't something that's so stupid, but it may be insightful. the longer it goes on, the closer we are to begin with your, of the economies we, it's quite clear that they're either in recession or on the edge of recession. and in the rest of the world, the economy is stagnant. and in the background, there's a good possibility of some sort of financial problems, financial crisis from the accumulated debt put that together. and the best that you can say is. and so she, great, i mentioned in the introduction that the are they found are on the economics for democratic and open societies projects. and there is very terms, democratic and open societies, a very hard to define because, um, you know,

america, for example, considers itself as, as a mode of democracy. but the, the, the current choice for president. so you have this here is quite narrow and some would say disappointing. so it like being the quality of that open society is quite debatable. what do you put into those terms? what does it mean to have a democracy or to have an open society in this day and age? the to open society comes from list the last of a uh, call pop up and it just sort of comes from publish, deal is own such as people think that the truth is accessible, that there is a truth out there and we can get a pop up showed that even in science, that is not possible. and it's really very clear why we just don't know what's going to happen tomorrow. i mean we, we book the size, the garage, but we have to admit that we thought this was, we don't know the future. so it is possible, it is to see level and i buy one day,

probably the song world rise. but what's true insurance is even more true in social science and what we know about societies. so if we con, you know, the troops, we must always keep an open mind to the possibility that we are wrong. and we need institutions that govern us and arrange social life in that way. and that's why i was happy to put our lives and it's not because stores and such a great thing in itself, but it's the only way that we have to have dealing with this very fundamental problem. and that's what i mean by opens aside. well, i want to say it's something else going well. uh, i was going to continue on because i'm interested is obviously in the eye of the beholder and we in rush, we even have 2 words for the concept of truth. one is something that is internal and not accessible to human sense and the other one that is very personal. but in my society at least, there is such a concept as justice as they are. and this, and this is something that also in the beholder. and yet there is some social

dimensions that could be sort of worked towards and achieved when you mentioned that the american economy is now that it's boom. do you think um this boom is democratically distribute at one person's ok. is another button to match for the social life, but these are, i think we've been so that's why we have to sort of socially negotiate them. and that's part of how politically, what, what a good political system does. is it twice and negotiates them in a way that delivers or become all joined together? same roughly reasonable for our options. are united states clearly not. there's a tremendous in a quality. and there's a lot of on the happiness, as i said on the ground us. but people struggle to make it me and that's, by the way, honest because of all political problems. and by the way, it's actually very much why i started this economics for democratic and open societies project because i used to work with the labor union ship. and i also

worked for a while with josh or so i know it's not such a popular speaker anymore and russian i'm, but the idea of was say, if you want to society, you have to ask yourself, what is the economic basis that will supported by the way that's what george soros you never did, and that's why i believe his project is ultimately failed. it never engaged this question. what is the economic system that will support democracy? what is the economic system that will support open society? this is a question that smashed to be on the table and we in the united states in europe, i failed all the countries are trying to answer it in different ways. and i understand what the, why they're doing it. they come from a different to that is a place to start that. well, let, let's talk about that because i think that question is at the very correct some deal politics today they bought in administration, often uses this theme of the, as the central side of democracy is against

a talk receives. and obviously that includes russia in the list of a talk where says, but uh, i know from my personal experience covering many international meetings that the steam is primarily used for domestic consumption. internationally. being democracy is like india, brazil, south africa. they couldn't be bothered about out of countries, political or ideological organization. they're mostly concerned about mutual trade about crime, about trans, border issues. you know, pretty maddox matters. why do you think this uh, theme of democracy is so prominent or danger to democracy, some prominent in the united states? why is it outwardly rather than inwardly focused on who is a danger to who are here? a very good life so much that i yes i, i agree about the, the day in the united states, all foreign policy establishment. all national security establishment is

a weapon audition to pursue i don't believe we have any interest in promoting democracy. i don't even know what democracy is doing today. the that's, that's good that the what i, i think i think we have a rough idea of what democracy is. good more and more people realize that it's not working here. but let's stay with the point that this is a very important point of view. as to here is how we have weaponized democracy as a way of attacking other countries. it becomes a cloak where our own regression, it becomes a way of flushing the countries on the back foot and effect our rec, what it shows that we're not really that much into democracy, that we have about little strip interfering in other countries when they produce democratic outcomes we don't like, we have a long history of collaborating with uh on, on democratic countries. and we have a very flawed spanning democracy. how democracy is detailed already taught,

be the uh, the evidence of for a country that says it's in favor of democracy. we have, we're up to do here. we should stop trying to end up being in depth as and all those internal affairs of august. i want to ask you um, the question that the just popped into my mind. i'm studying psychology and both collective around individual psychology and whenever you started doing psychological work or any developmental work, you're starts where you are and it's not a linear or progress, but essentially you're sol wallace. you will even move to the next. then there's some regression always with what is important is to treat yourself with patients with empathy to invest in your development them to treat yourself seriously. where does this idea that societies can somehow arrive a democracy over all of a sudden that they can be indoctrinated into democracy? come from because i simply don't understand how such a cold, complicated, and complex organism as a, as a car, as a country would become

a democracy over night. they, when they for institutions are brought there. but i think that again, that is really of the essence here. and that's why i talked about the united states weapon rising democracy. we know that democracy is very hard to come back to a very long historical process. the each country has its own historical conditions . some have been more advantaged and more fortunate than others. perhaps the joke provisions of geography, perhaps, variations of where scientific revolution landed earlier or not, but the actual regions of culture. but so we know that you cannot just a lot democracy over not and it's in that way that the united states is worked on, isaac democracy, it, i would say it needs, but i go section countries go ahead of the game a little bit and they were advantage, but now they've turned it around where other countries are trying to find ways of improving livingstone outage for their citizens. strengthening back of an inch,

improving the state of a fast united states as if you don't know that democracy your enemy. and then the company was the very common or was this terrible story that's through the whole, the washington's think tax. yeah. as they should have access to more top proceeds. and this is part of that. there's a, an autocratic alliance around the world. ended simply in denver pushing and this is by what pallet, a drum up, the impression supports nationalism. i don't know. i have support for the military support for these before who was the intervention? of course, it's could be false if i be of interest as the exact opposite. look at the history of who has been involved in was over the last 20 years, which the us look something like the defense budgets. the date on it states defense budget is 10, is as large as the next 10 countries. we'll add it together right now. and i hope

it doesn't last is that the united states is leading aggression against these other countries. i don't know how to get that, but if people are willing to look at the evidence and if people are willing to consider the other paul proposition, then we will just be led by the nose, which is what's happening right now. i know politics and which is particularly the case in europe right now. well mr. paley, we have to take a very short break, but we will come back to this conversation in a short while placed agent, the the,

what is part of the is it that the employee would post good isn't the, the place you was in that, in the word or is it something deeper, more complex might be present good. let's stop without pleases. let's go out of or the welcome back to wells a part to thomas bailey, an american economist, and the founder of the economics for democratic and open societies project. mr. paley, as we have been talking before they break, it's impossible to ask for democracy. but i wonder if american policy makers

understand the democracy also needs maintenance. it's impossible to keep it at a terminal without actually doing much for dissing that resonates with americans. because i think in the american society there is a lot of this and of history sort of feel. and they assume that once they arrive the democracy, nothing has to be done and they will be there forever. it can be taken for granted . i think you're too nice to say that they've been to the times at the end of history that not that intellectual. well, i'll lead us. um, what we have is that you, i mean we have for what democracy. and actually each one of the interesting, even the think i read recently in the economist magazine that those are the democracy index from the economist is quite a right wing magazine. and it said that the united states has a through a democracy. and, and, and we tell them not when there's no conversation really about in prison. i mailed us this, i'm n g o z. yeah, some sent our last people to say that we need to make changes,

but there's no design. i mean, think of it, i'll send 100 senators to send there it is the state so that while name was 650000 people has the same representation to senators, as california was 43000000 people. and we have a huge problem of gerrymandering. when we used computers now to draw all boundaries so that we can really get the biggest advantage. why big one group, the cost of them all together. but a window seat was an 80 percent 20 percent about the adult. the dominant body then rearranges the rest of the map, so they can win the sheets, which say 52 to 48 percent. that way you can actually control the deluxe, even if you don't have a majority representation. indeed, by the way, but i think this happened twice already our presidential election, remember george bush got fewer total votes than algo donald trump got fewer total dutch than hillary clinton if that happened in another country. guess what

a media would be saying are. so i think what, what blind to it. yeah, we could manage this thing. we could drop competitive districts encourage competition. we could talk different ways of counting both. so we have to be only the equipment to do it. but above all, the system is locked down and go and buy big money, the rich and powerful in this country, and that it works for the corporations. they own the system. so we have an extremely flor democracy right now. i don't think the economist does, and he's been black enough justice to house more we are, but at least it has the guy in the stage says a notes. and i think that's, i mean, you highlighted all the challenges associated with getting to power. but i think there is also a 2nd part of how one uses the power and whether, you know, the governing structures enough to implement a substantial change in the lives of the people. because ultimately politics exist

for governance and it has to do some practical work all around that non day, either way around. now, um, what elaborate is at this point, are you seeing an average american has to not only get his or her interest voiced or heard, but actually pursued by the, by the politicians or elected leaders in defense of spanish? yeah, let me, let me just roll back up the system, the problem a capture and not being responsive to change ethics and racist authoritarian systems as you learned in russia, in the, in the years of the call in the cold. and the soviet era could be pretty unresponsive and could be pretty captured. so every political system needs to think about this problem. if you want to talk about the united states, well, uh, can i stop here here? and because i don't wanna it to be only about the united states because, i mean the restaurant is often referred to as an a talk or see, but i, i know for sure for sure that i have a lot of lever, as for example,

and there's something in my neighborhood, just a couple of weeks ago, there was something like in my backyard i, i made a call, i wrote a complaint and you know, a couple of hours later it was illuminated. so there are many mechanisms in russia to actually influence life on the ground. now the if can be arg here that you know why the important has been in power for so long. but if you actually look at the, you know, the, all 4 of the candidates for the upcoming presidential elections, we have 5 of them in the running. and some of them are pretty young and the, you know, handsome and attractive. but uh, the population, a student seems to be, uh, honestly and i'll send typically voting in favor of a certain party. now you may dislike it in the united states, but i think part of that has to do with the advocacy of governance. and this is one more question that i want to ask you, how like in focusing on labels so much whether any particular government is a democracy or, and that's a talk or see andre losing side of what it actually delivers for the people.

because people don't care whether it's put in a bite and you know, what's the last name, more logical affiliation. they, they care and whether, you know, they bring something that bring something that are into their lives. but yes, i, i don't want you to misinterpret who i was just making a general point that every political system confronts this problem. and quite clearly, russia has a political, says the ellis political competition. and there's, there's a, that's about, there's a lively politics that, i mean, that's part of the misrepresentation, nebraska and china to, in our society a 6, i have no box. all the texas president, good news is a dictator. he's no, he works within a political, we don't care what's, i mean we look at the rest of the culture of the worth is important. but what does that stand? what supports us more, it is more important than the worth itself. kind of a absolute, the president, brutish, clearly popular. he wins the election by popular consent. i want to say also that

again, i want to come back and talk is a good bad. i'm not an expert or an internal affairs in russia. i want to talk about the evidence rush or us relationship. i think what we, what we are doing, actually if we were interested in democracy, that we're saying we're doing is actually a set back to democracy. because what country is attacked from the outside us, i believe we've been engaged, not a military attack, but in a slow motion board of aggression on the border stage with a long term plan. i would say this up, if i put it on the table here, maybe we'll discuss it. i would say it within the united states. but in the state department of the pentagon, there is applied to a part to try and deconstruct prussia. just as the soviet union fell apart, the fractures where the republics. so 2 people here believe they can do the same thing with russia itself. the russians need to understand the n. i'd states as a long term penalty against russia. and by attacking it's the same for china. it

actually encourages the retreat from democracy. this is, by the way, also what happened in this country, often, 911. when we were attacked by a criminal gang, the bush administration used it, as course to roll back out democrats to really i'm not sure i would agree with their here because, i mean, i think i decided that the american policy is not very friendly towards either russian or china is pretty clear, but it, on the, on the other hand, i mean, you may have these as are several intentions. but as an economist, you know, you need to, you know, fortify them by actual means of achieving them. and the russians have known about that all along and they put the efforts and money into creating a military sector into a strengthening the defensive and also into making sure that the economy is self sufficient. the same goals for china. i wonder if the american leads who have this hedge and warning intentions actually do that homework to, you know, do the numbers to make sure that they can achieve those goals. whatever those goals

are, practically no, just inform of wishful thinking practically. well that, that, that, that's obviously a big debate and this to the benefits of debate, but it's taking place inside. yeah. i think that there is a recalibration taking place. you may have heard of globalization being on the rock, such as what um, the original goal coming out of this sort of the end of history store. it was, and it used to be cool as sort of the wall street model of globalization was still added. states was going to become at the headquarters of world capital. well, wall street was going to be the headquarters and then it would have judy apartments much like say, britain, today is a junior partner or a gentleman. he is a junior partner. the hope was that china and russia would come on his junior partners and they didn't mix up with good reason. but they didn't know i, i would

a recent book about it's called southern pre owned us and buy in australia and also with the system was subbing. i was a 100 pre owned by the united states below which somebody imperial palace, those shopping period. bosh, some foreign policy is already, but it's all subservient to the uh, the imperial power. then they're all the actual states who have no foreign policy rights at all. and then there's the rest, this restore of the low speed model. and it's on a pop the what the united states was going to run the world, speak spanish. and it was really to outsource each manufacturing. and this, i thought it was gonna work and it doesn't work and be in the united states, just recalibrating as a result, we are trying to bring back some manufacturing. but we're, we're calibrating it to, as a little bit of i don't see, i don't know how much we can bring back. instead we've gone on the side of aggression. so we do things like fight a blocks of trust or technology. we try to exclude others and we try to sabotage

the economic development of others. and maybe if need be, we'll con, i think roger responding through ukraine and drugs, some of the border state activities to nato latrice with maybe another tree for us . so a lot of the, the, the us elite is very much aware of the problem. and if this recalibrating a search, it's not it, but whether it will work or not. it's another issue. i think the world has its own and thinking to do and uh, when i attends various international organizations, it seems that many countries actually choosing the pass as of the own, you know, intellectual and the sometimes industrial economic autonomy because they don't no longer want to rely on anyone for a strategic decisions and that's an interesting development. and sometimes i get a sense that um, you know, many of them i have this not only sort of urging a sovereignty,

but i also am sort of a lack of understanding why the united states is resisting the objective flow of history. because many of them see what's happening right now, not as the purpose will decline of that was with rather as the rising of the rest of the world and each country bringing you know, its own strengths and weaknesses to the for and that's normal. i'm and this is a big world we all want to develop and you know how to child and develop. i sometimes wonder if all this talk about the end of history is ultimately a cover for the united states. not being able to afford itself to have this historical on long view perspective. because russia has a china has in brazil has a many countries that have a transitional governments haven't. but it seems that the united states, as for, of a locked in the, you know, the election containing rather than a real discussion of, on how the country should be governed. and what are the priorities and the distribution of responsibilities between big money as

a social organization and social welfare of physical or economy? to chris, really a last few countries that can really be anything like a ton of us. i should do that the night states is about as close as you can get to that. it's a, it's a, it's, it's called on to a size, 350000000 people counted extra the north with a lot of resources. mexico to the south with a lot of people. do the north american economy tenant essentially go it alone. i don't a rush, i can't, i don't know that china can. china is in need of the resources towards large population is manufacturing. and so, so the rest of the world is a lot to be doing from the existing in that a peaceful world promotes economic development. and that's what i was talking about this indeed for and i but, and that's why i think it's such

a tragedy to shift and weld the direction that practice it in this way. i think it was the really the verizon so rushed should be seen as a blessing. this is a way that we are going to right raise living stuff which improves political life throughout the world. when it be, it states because it sees itself in it. so in imperial ends, and this is, it runs very deep into the culture and the people, but ordinary people see it and those down to the same crazy way that out on new york on policy make us do. but it's very easy, then you have to add, you do a somehow exceptional that you do your wish, right? but the right to do this, you want, if you have this imperial mind, then it's very easy to turn the rise of the rest into a 0 sum game. and when you turn it into a 0 sum game, then you're going to have been talking. wow, here when this here are exceptional or to shining city on the hill,

that $1000.00 free, you're from i doing some basic reality checks. and then you can look at basic economic indicators of the united states to see how much or how little dog has brought to an ordinary american over the last, the 20 or 30 years. anyway, mr. paley, we have to leave it there. i wish i had more time with you, but thank you very much for this se like me in discussion. thank you for inviting. i've enjoyed it. thank you. and thank you for watching hope to share again on the world's a part of the, the the,

the, the purpose of the international issue and what is patient's eligibility of legislation within a younger civilian motor polls show me a picture today in the chatting with the bus on the hands of showing shootings on our to them, we have some sort of forward and i'm wondering if somebody wants to skip that are some don't sort actually show one of those recently me know to the most if the use of that opinion. good, good. and there's nobody know him, you know, the expect the smoke, but when he is the isn't boy most pretty, as grandma and the boys easy, the way to somebody alone, that's the money being made. and then assuming, and then you ask my key within the united nations and you know, when it continues to be just as long as that video for that are clear. but the

sort of, you mean the only 2000 my turn now to the latest on rushes presidential election. well, well, well, at least turned it up of the

the, [000:00:00;00] the question for this push ahead of the friends clearing minds left by which waiting ukrainian sold will be friends, presidents double donald coles to send troops, the ukraine as folks control the sea for trying to get nato allies on as india say, that stepping up to wait with the russia in defiance of western pressure. we sit down to discuss the prospects with these folks costs and have been the is ruling cost. 80 alia, does not see any certificates or the patient from the rest of the work regarding is