a society's project, mr. bailey, it's a great honor and great pleasure for me to talk to your thank you very much for your time. well, thank you very much for inviting me. i'm looking forward to this. now you're not only a prominent the economy, but also i think this, i'm extend an economic to store and, and what i really like about here approaches the fear factor in psychology, culture, morality as a way of explaining the phenomenon, behavior of people or whole nations. and using this a very comprehensive plan, so i want to start by asking, where do you think the global economy assigns itself at this very point i want on. so in terms of strong weak what i, but i think i'd like to use a school last a. i'll give it a grade. i give it a c great. and of course, to understand the global economy, it consists of pieces. and so i, i don't think that the pain is 3 pieces of significance right now. the 1st of

course is the united states. and this your up and then at a school the rest of the world uh, in the united states were having a macro economic pool, shooting out stock market numbers and so on. but there's a lot of discontent on the ground. and i would say to people that boom is very much a financial boom. and so things can and i suddenly was finance. i, if i say, i guess as a something that's a social, but it may be insightful. the longer it goes on, the closer we are to begin with your, of the economies we, it's quite clear that they're either in recession or on the edge it for a session in and in the rest of the world, the economy is stagnant. and in the background, there's a good possibility of some sort of financial problems, financial crisis from here to my day to day put that together. and the best that

you can say is. and so she, great, i mentioned in the introduction that the are they found are on the economics for democratic and open societies projects. and there is very terms, democratic and open societies, a very hard to define because, um, you know, america for example, considers itself as, as a mode of democracy. but the, the, the current choice for president. so you have this here is quite narrow. and so i would say disappointing. so like the, the quality of that open society is quite debatable. what do you put into those terms? what does it mean to have a democracy or to have an open society in this day and age? the top open society comes from list the last of a uh, call pop up and it should have come from publish views on such as people think that the truth is accessible, that there is a truth out there and we can get a pop up showed that even in science that is not possible. and it's really, it's very clear why we just don't know what's going to happen tomorrow. i mean we,

we book the size, the garage, but we have to admit that we can't be sucking because we don't know the future. so it is possible, it is to see level and i buy one day, probably the song, low price. but what's true insurance is even more true in social science and what we know about societies. so if we con, you know, the trips, we must always keep an open mind to the possibility that we are wrong. and we need institutions that govern us and arrange social life in that way. and that's why, of what's happened to the poor. listen. it's not because persian such a great thing in itself, but it's the only way that we have to have dealing with this very fundamental problem. and that's what i mean by that opens aside. well, it's interest rate. it's something else going well. uh, i was going to continue because i'm interested is obviously in the eye of the beholder and we in rush, we even have 2 words for the concept of truth. one is something that is internal

and not accessible to human sense. and the other one that is very personal, but in my society at least, there is such a concept as justice as they are. and this, and this is something that also in the beholder. and yet there is some social dimensions that could be sort of worst towards and achieved when he imagined that the american economy is now. that is bone. do you think? um uh this boom is democratically distribute at one person's ok is another button to match for the social life. so these are, i think we've been so that's why we have to sort of socially negotiate them. and that's part of how politically, what, what a good political system does, is it twice and negotiates them in a way that delivers, or become all joined together. same roughly reasonable for our outcomes in the united states. clearly not. there's a tremendous in a quality and issue a lot of on the happiness, as i said on the ground, is that people struggle to make it. and that's, by the way,

honest because of all political problems. and by the way, it's actually very much why i started this economics for democratic and open societies project because i used to work with the labor union ship. and i also worked for a while with george saw. so i know it's not such a popular speaker anymore and russian, i'm, but the idea was say, if you want this society, you have to bosco, so what is the economic basis that will support it? and by the way, that's what george soros you never did. and that's why i believe his project is ultimately failed. it never engaged this question. what is the economic system that will support democracy? what is the economic system that will support open society? this is a question that smashed to be on the table. and we, in the united states, in europe, i failed all the countries are trying to answer it in different ways and i understand what, why they're doing it, they come from a different to that is a place to start that. well let,

let's talk about that because i think that question is at the very correct some deal politics today they bought in administration, often using this theme of the as a central side of democracy is against a talk receives. and obviously that includes the restaurant in the list of a talk where says, but i know from my personal experience covering many international meetings that the steam is primarily use for domestic consumption. internationally being democracy is like india, brazil, south africa. they couldn't be bothered about out of countries, political or ideological organization. they're mostly concerned about mutual trade about crime, about trans, border issues. you know, pretty maddox matters. why do you think this uh, theme of democracy is so prominent or danger to democracy. so prominent in the united states, why is it outwardly rather than inwardly focused on who is a danger to who are here a very good life so much that i yes i, i agree. but the,

today in the united states, all foreign policy establishment, all national security establishment is a weapon audition to pursue i don't believe we have any interest in promoting democracy. it, i don't even know what democracy is. do they want to know that that's, that's good. that's what i, i took by, hey, we have a rough idea of what democracy is. good, more and more people realize that it's not working here. but let's stay with the point that this is a very important points. all of us together is how we have westernized democracy as a way of attacking other countries. it becomes a cloak where our own regression, it becomes a way of flushing other countries on the back foot. and it's like our record shows that we're not really that much into a democracy that we have about little low strip interfering in other countries when they produce democratic outcomes. we don't like to have

a long history of collaborating with uh on, on democratic countries. and we have a very flawed spanning democracy, how democracy is to, to are ready comp, be the the evidence of for a country that says it's in favor of democracy. we have what to do here. we should stop trying to end up being in the 1000 of those internal affairs of office. i want to ask you um, the question that the just popped into my mind. i, i'm citing psychology and both collective around individual psychology. and whenever you all started doing psychological work or any developmental work, you're start where you are and it's not a linear progress, but essentially you're sol wirelessly and will even move to the next time. there are some regression always with what is important is to treat yourself with patients with empathy to invest in your development, then to treat yourself seriously. where does this idea that societies can somehow arrive a democracy of all of

a sudden that they can be indoctrinated into democracy? come from because i simply don't understand how such a cult, complicated and complex organism as a, as a car, as a country could become a democracy over night. they, when they for institutions are brought there. but i think that again, that is really of the essence here. and that's why i talked about the united states weapon rising democracy. we know that democracy is very hard to come by. it's a very long historical process. each country has its own historical conditions. some have been more adventures and more fortunate than others, perhaps the joke provisions of geography, perhaps variations of west scientific revolution landed earlier or not, but the actual regions of culture. but so we know that you cannot just a lot democracy over not. and it's in that way that the united states is what an isaac democracy. i would say the but i go section countries go ahead of the game

a little bit. and they were advantage. but now they've turned it around where all the countries are trying to find ways of improving livingstone outage for their citizens. a strengthening back of an inch, improving the state of a fast united states as if you don't know that democracy, your enemy. and then the company was the very common was this terrible story that's through the washington. same tax. yeah. as they should have access or talk procedures. and this is part of that there's an autocratic alliance around the world industry in denver, pushing and this is part of what the hell of a drum up. the impression supports nationalism. i don't know. i have support for the military support for these before. who was the intervention? of course it's could be false if i be of interest as the exact opposite. look at the history of who has been involved in was over the last 20 years, which the us look something like the defense budgets the you did on it states

defense budget is 10, is as large as the next 10 countries. we'll add it together right now, and i hope it doesn't last is that the united states is leading regression against these other countries. i don't know how to get that, but if people aren't willing to look at the evidence, and if people aren't willing to consider the other pop proposition, then we will just be led by the nose, which is what's happening right now and all politics and which is particularly the case in europe right now. well mr. paley, we have to take a very short break, but we will come back to this conversation in a short while placed agent. the

i look forward to talking to you all that technology should work for people. a robot must obey the orders given it by human beings, except we're so shorter is that conflict with the 1st law show alignment of the patient. we should be very careful about our personal intelligence at the point, obviously is to trace a truck or rather than to the area. i mean with the artificial intelligence we have so many with him in the robot most protects his phone. existence was on the

welcome back to was important to us to thomas paley, an american economist, and the founder of the economics for democratic and open societies, project. mr. paley, as we have been talking before they break, it's impossible to ask for democracy. but i wonder if american policy makers understand the democracy also needs maintenance. it's impossible to keep with a turnover without actually doing much work doing that resonates with americans. because i think in the american society there is a lot of this and of history sort of feel. and they assume that once they arrive the democracy, nothing has to be done and it will be there forever. it can be taken for granted. i think you're too nice to say that they've been to the times at the end of history, then all that intellectual allow our lead as well. we have is gotcha.

i mean, we have for what democracy and actually each one of the interesting, even the think i read recently in the economist magazine that does have a democracy index on the economist has quite a right wing magazine. and it showed that the united states was a floor democracy and, and, and we've had them not when there's no conversation really about in prison. i'm eldest some and g o. she has some incentive last people to say that we need to make changes, but there's no desire. let me think of it. i'll send 100 senators to sunday, which is the state so that why only was 650000 people has the same representation to senators. as california was 43000000 people. and we have a huge problem of gerrymandering when we use computers now to draw all boundaries so that we can really get the biggest advantage why big one group cost of them all together. they, when the sheet was an 80 percent 20 percent about the adult,

the dominant body then rearranges the rest of the map. so they go into sheets, which say 52 to 48 percent. that way you can actually control the deluxe, even if you don't have a majority representation. indeed, by the way, but i think this happened twice already our presidential election, remember george bush got fewer total votes than algo donald trump got your total dutch then hillary clinton. uh, if that happened in another country, yes, what our media would be saying and so on. but what, what blind to it. yeah, we could manage this thing. we could drop competitive districts encourage competition. we could tab different ways of counting voltage. so we have to be only the equipment to do it, but a bustle. the system is locked down and go and buy big money, the rich and powerful in this country. and then they work through the corporations . they own the system. so we have an extremely flor democracy right now. i don't

think the economist does anything black enough just as to how small we are, but at least it has the kite it in the state says notes. and i think that's i'm in a highlighted all the challenges associated with getting to power. but i think there is also a 2nd part of how one uses the power and whether, you know, the governing structures enough to implement a substantial change in the lives of the people. because ultimately politics exist for governance and it has to do some practical work around that and on the other way around. now, um, what elaborate is at this point? are you seeing an average american pass to not only and gab hughes or her interest voiced or heard, but actually pursued by the, by the politicians or elected leaders in defense of spanish? yeah, let, let me just roll back of the system, the problem a capture and not being responsive to change ethics and racist. and also are terry

and systems. as you learned in russia, in the, in the years of the call in the cold and the soviet era could be pretty unresponsive and could be pretty captured. so every political system needs to think about this problem. if you want to talk about the united states, well, uh, can i stop here here? and because i don't wanna it to be only about the united states because, i mean, the russia is often referred to as in a talk or see. but i, i know for sure, for sure that i have a lot of lovers for example. and there's something in my neighborhood just a couple of weeks ago, there was something like in my backyard, i, i made a call, i wrote a complaint and you know, a couple of hours later it was illuminated. so there are many mechanisms in russia to actually influence life on the ground about the if can be art here that you know why the important has been in power for so long. but if you actually look at the, you know, the, all 4 of the candidates for the upcoming presidential elections, we have 5 of them in the running. and some of them are pretty young and the, you know, handsome and attractive. but uh, the population, a student seems to be,

uh, honestly and i'll send typically voting in favor of a certain party. now you may dislike it in the united states, but i think part of that has to do with the advocacy of governance. and this is one more question that i want to ask you, how like in focusing on labels so much whether any particular government is a democracy or, and that's a talk or see argument losing side of what it actually delivers for the people. because people don't care whether it's put in a bind and you know, what's the last name or a dell, logical affiliation. they, they care and whether, you know, they bring something that'd bring something better into their lives. but yes, i, i don't want you to misinterpreted me. i was just making a general point, but every political system confronts this problem. and quite clearly, russia has a political system, some of this political competition. and there's, there's a, that's about, there's a lively politics that, i mean, that's part of the misrepresentation, nebraska and china to, in our society

a 6 i have no box politics is if president bush is a, is a dictator. he's no, he works within a political, we don't care what's, i mean like any of the rest of the culture of the uh, warrant is important, but uh, what does that stand? what supports that's more it is more important than the worth itself. kind of a, actually the president, brutish, clearly popular. he wins to election by popular consent by want to say, well, so that again, i want to come back and talk is a good bad. i'm not an expert or an internal affairs in russia. i want to talk about the evidence rush or us relationship. i think what we, what we are doing, actually if we were interested in democracy, that we're saying we're doing is actually a set back to democracy. because what countries attacked from the outside us, i believe we've been engaged, not a military attack, but in a slow motion, more of aggression on the border stage with a long term plan. i would say this up, if i put it on the table here,

maybe we'll discuss it. i would say it within the united states. but in the state department of the pentagon, there is applied to a part to try and deconstruct prussia. just as the soviet union fell apart, the fractures where the republics. so 2 people here believe they can do the same thing with russia itself. the russians need to understand n i'd states as a long term, m a t, a gauge, russia, and by attacking it's the same for china. it actually encourages the retreat from democracy. this is, by the way, also what happened in this country, often 911. when we were attacked by a criminal gang, the bush administration used it, as course to roll back out democrats to really i'm not sure i would agree with their hearing because, i mean, i think i decided the american policy is not very friendly towards either russian or china is pretty clear, but it, on the, on the other hand, i mean, you may have this of your several intentions. but as an economist, you know, you need to, you know, fortify them by actual means of achieving them. and the russians have known about

that all along and they put the efforts and money into creating a military sector into a strengthening the defensive and also into making sure that the economy is self sufficient. the same goals for china. i wonder if the american leads who have this hedge and warning intentions actually do that homework to, you know, do the numbers to make sure that they can achieve those goals. whatever those goals are, practically no, just inform of wishful thinking practically. well that, that, that, that's obviously a big debate and that should debate bits of debate, but it's taking place inside. yeah, i think that there is a re calibration taking place. you may have heard of globalization being on the rocks. that's what i'm the original goal coming out of this sort of the end of history store. it was used to be cool as sort of the wall street model of globalization was still at it. states was going to become at the headquarters of

world capital. well, wall street was going to be the course, and then it would have judy apartments much like say, britain, today is a junior partner or a gentleman. he is a junior partner. the hope was that china and russia would come on as junior partners, and they didn't accept that with good reason. but they didn't know i, i read a recent book about uh, it's called southern pre owned us and buy in australia. and also with the system was a sub and i was a, any pre owned by the united states below which somebody imperial powers, those shopping period, power stash, some foreign policy authority. but it's all subservient to the uh, the imperial power. then they're all the actual states who have no foreign policy rights at all. and then this arrest, this was sort of level speed model. and it's on a part of what the united states was going to run the world, speak spanish. and it was really to outsource shortage manufacturing. and this i

thought it was gonna work and it doesn't work. and the via the united states is recalibrating. as a result, we are trying to bring back some manufacturing, but we're calibrating to as a little bit of i don't see, i don't know how much we can bring back. instead we've gone on the side of aggression. so we do things like 5 blocks of trust or technology. we try to exclude others and we try to shop a charge of the economic development of others. and maybe if need be, we'll try and as i said, rush are responding through ukraine and drove some of the board to state activities to nato latrice with maybe military force. so all of the year the us elite is very much aware of the problem. and if there's recalibrating a search, it's not it, but whether it will work or not, it's another issue. i think the world has its own uh, thinking to do and uh, when i attend various international organizations, it seems that many countries actually choosing the past as of the own, you know,

intellectual and the sometimes industrial economic autonomy because they don't no longer want to rely on anyone for a strategic decisions and that's an interesting development. and sometimes i get a sense that, you know, many of them have this not only sort of urging a sovereignty, but i also am sort of a lack of understanding why the united states is resisting the objective flow of history because they, many of them see what's happening right now, notice the purpose will decline of that was with rather as the rising of the rest of the world and each country bringing you know, its own strengths and weaknesses to the floor and that's normal. i'm and this is a big world. we all want to develop and you know how to child and develop. i sometimes wonder if all this talk about the end of history is ultimately

a cover for the united states, not being able to afford itself to have this historical on long view perspective. because russia has a china has in brazil has a many countries that have a transitional governments haven't. but it seems that the united states, as for, of a locked in the, you know, election containing rather than a real discussion of, on how the country should be governed. and what are the priorities and the distribution of responsibilities between big money as a social organization and social welfare of virtual or economy? to chris, really a last few countries that can really be anything like a ton of us. i should do that the night states is about as close as you can get to that. it's a, it's a, it's, it's called on to a size, 350000000 people counted extra. the north of a lot of resources, mexico to the south with a lot of people. do the north american accommodate,

can't essentially go it alone. i don't rush, i can't. i don't know that china and china is in need of the resources towards large population in manufacturing so. so the rest of the world is a lot to be doing from a to existing into a peaceful world that promotes economic development. and that's what i was talking about this indeed for i buy it and that's why i think it's such a tragedy to shift and weld in a direction that practice it in this way. i think it was the really the verizon so rushed should be seen as a blessing. this is a way that we are going to right raise living stand. it improves political life throughout the world when it be on that stage because it sees itself in, in it. so in imperial ends. and this is, it runs very deep into the culture and the people, but ordinary people see it in those towns to the same crazy way that out on the

o'con policy make us do. but it's very easy. then you have to add, you do a somehow exceptional that you do your wish, right? but the right to do this you want if you have this imperial mind, then it's very easy to turn the rise of the rest into a 0 sum game. and when you turn it into a 0 sum game, then you're going to have been talking. wow, even if you are exceptional or to shining city on the hill, that $1000.00 free, you're from, i doing some basic reality checks. and then you can look at basic economic indicators of the united states to see how much or how little and dive has brought to an ordinary americans over the last uh, 20 or 30 years. anyway, and mr. paley, we have to leave it there. i wish i had more time with you, but thank you very much for this se lightning discussion. thank you for inviting. i've enjoyed it. thank you. and thank you for watching hope to share again on the world's a part of the

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it was a made. it has been us to bring it to issue in pretty junior. why given the condition initially and the final appreciate the goals and because of them. oh sure . so i agree with lou, cuz you will get to the subject yourself. okay. so should the case just chose coast mcadams? whenever you're ready to spell the name, she goes to the most from the on the new level you want that to me. yes. that's the most important thing to do with some of the pictures to the point. this is sort of you, but just any successful he wants to build, some of the chairs are still go additional for 3 done. i'm forward to, for, for more from the to mind giving some of the

the russian forces pushed ahead at the front clearing minds left by retreating ukrainian soldiers. while the french president doubles down on calls to send troops to ukraine, and the sparks controversy for trying to get nato allies on horse. as india says that stepping up trade with russia in defiance of western pressure, we sit down to discuss the prospects with this person of india as ruling party does not need any information from the arbitration from the management board regarding it by russia or any other kind of people that apply to also among the week's big stories in bob wake that the consumer for us.