[000:00:00;00] the i'm action retentive and welcome back to going underground, broadcasting all around the world from the u a. this week. so cold genocide, joe biden plans to release his budget request for next year on to months where he has failed to pass. multi $1000000000.00 requests to zable the proxy war and ukraine on the war on gaza. as for palestine up to tens of thousands of being killed with native nation weapons, mostly women and children. now hundreds of thousands, phase famine, aid convoys, lifeline scattering. food watering mentioned i routinely denied entry to northern guns in which human rights organizations a cooling the deliberate starvation of gauze as civilian population by israel wellness soft about the usa, new cave repeatedly refused. that'd be you and rebecca, si fi. joining me now as someone who wasn't advisers and about spinning leadership

in romano and feminine stages negotiations with his ro, khaled l, getting the now senior fellow and director of the program and palestine and palestinian is really it says in the middle east institute joins we now from arlington and virginia, calling to thank you so much for coming on, i should say that because those things, even the top story in the countries which is supplying the weapons so that the genocide can, can happen. you, you describe the unprecedented nature then. what is what is happening? i mean is really so just posting stuff, videos of the beginning of the students in gaza, people on social media can see is yeah, it's it's, it's actually pretty astonishing what, what is happening uh at, in end to gaza. i mean we've, we've seen over the past 5 months, but destruction of an entire society. it civilian infrastructure, most of its homes, most of its hospitals, all of its universities, hundreds of schools, mosques, churches, i mean, just the basic uh, the,

the basic foundations of, of life. and that's, you know, not even, not even counting the 10s of thousands who have been killed, of the 20000 or offends. i mean, the list goes on and on in terms of the scale of destruction. and, and of course you was, you mention, you have these videos of israeli soldiers gleefully mocking um the people uh, you know, leading uh items from people's homes, marketing the people who escaped or were killed in those homes. and, and it's quite horrifying. and all we see on from the west really, particularly in the united states, is either silence in the face of atrocities, including the deliberate starvation of an entire population. and everyone knows

this. and so either we get silence or we get kind of newly mouse talking points um, you know, from the state department and white house spokes, people trying to deflect edge or casual i made the headlines of the papers, drinking does understand it. so it says the state, the bottom, oh they, they absolutely understand it. and when, when, when the president comes out and says, you know, we won't stand for this, you know, clearly, you know, feigning a moral outrage. she personally understands exactly what's happening to the state department of the c. i a certainly the pentagon, the white house, as they all understand, that israel is deliberately preventing humanitarian assistance from coming in. and they've hinted at kind of mild criticism, but they certainly have a tackled it directly. and as of right, you know, rather than confront that atrocity of head on and call it out.

they just circumvented by doing these kind of performative air drops and hand wringing when, when the reality is the substance of the policy has not changed. there's been no interruption in the weapons flow to israel. there's been no disruption of providing cover in the united nations. and seizure, you know, that the towing resolution after resolution in order to shield israel from, from any critique or org or having to stop this war. and it's, i don't know what, what there is left to say. well, one thing to be said was uh, what the again made the newspapers of the country supplying the weapons for the killing of the you and report that by special, by for me in the past who said it was all uh, rape on october,

the 7th. and you can compare the profile functionality between the oaks at october 7th, resistance attacks. and what's happened to guys since? yeah, i mean there's, there's no question that from us committed very serious work crimes and atrocities on october 7, actually i have a war crimes because a, a occupied people has the right to resist using armed there. they're out to use weapons. ok. sure. yeah, i mean there's, there's no question that why you guys know, so, but this warrant attacks as well. well, what i, what i'm saying is, so the way in which hundreds of armed militants carried out those attacks, those were, those are clearly go attacking civilians, killing wanton cooling. that is, those are clearly war crimes. and i mean there's no, you know, we have to in the same way that we can't conflate israel's right to self defense with what they're doing and gaza,

which is committing more atrocities as starving the population. that's not self defense. but i'm just wondering why you called when i would are generally past the point of that, i would argue that what a mass and other armed groups carried out on october 7th was also not legitimate form of resistance. i don't think what is in the g as in my home because nelson mandela would presumably have given it is back in given mandela famously. so the bombing of the restaurants as a legitimate form of resistance under apartheid. yeah, but, but i don't subscribe to that view. um and obviously nelson mandela was entitled to his view. but, but you know, my standard is, is based on international humanitarian law and international human rights law. and international law allows for justified international lawyers as on struggle. again, talk about buying authority. yeah. right. so, you know, you can carry out armed

a taps on on the military, on any armed group that represents the state. those could be considered legitimate targeting. no is riley has also had their function. but oh is really, is have to fight with the idea, i know. but you know, this is a dangerous path that we go down on when we start attributing kind of collective guilt. we have to understand, you know, it's the same mindset that allows israel to, uh, to bomb an entire building and say, either, well, they all voted for him as, or they all support from ass or a, or, or to, you know, attribute collective guilt to, to an entire people because they are, let's say you're a crowds are civil servants in how mass led government. i don't think that's a reasonable standard for who qualifies as a combatant or legitimate target. i don't think even targeting a, a,

a so called militant in their home while they're sleeping and killing him and his family. i don't think that's legitimate when israel does it and i don't think it's legitimate when i mass or any other group does something similar. so sorry, you have to have you already goes mean combatants and civilians. you advised the people in ramallah who danny are. don't have the best of reputations amongst the palestinian people right now. what? so what the palestinian people are just of us to trust these international kind of for a i think that was the quartet, which i think tony blair was associated with for a long time brushes get pulled out of that one. you don't see that. i mean, obviously over the dead bodies of tens of thousands, mostly women and children, at least gaza is on the map in world opinion now the entire will depart from the nature of countries. simple. it's a game the rights of the palestinian people. yeah, i mean that the mean,

these are 2 separate questions though. i mean whether whether the attacks were morally or legally justified the tax of october 7th. and the question of whether they were represented a tactical victory far from ass. those are 2 different questions. mean, yes, scored a tactical victory delivered a shock to these really system in a way that this, you know, no israeli government or public had had felt before. so that certainly from a strictly psychological and even political standpoint. sure that was a tactical victory but, but again, i think we can't confuse you know, outcomes with, with sort of moral or legal justification. and so the bottom line is, we know we, we, we know these kinds of attacks. they work terrorism works, right? it gets people's attention and, and it can even move the ball politically. and i would say not only terrorism by

palestinians, but, but also by israelis and by, by sinus groups. i mean, israel's preparation was very much in large part of result of, of terrorism. very effective terrorism against the, the civilian population in palestine against a british government and other targets. so terrorism historically has worked but, but that's different. then the kind of narrow question. it was okay by their own tax on civilians are justified. i wonder what it's like very much i should just say in britain they don't teach much. my dear good and killing british soldiers. that's cool is directly what did like being there in washington in the middle east institute that amongst and amidst the media landscape that because as far as i can tell in the united states, the media are focused in on the headings,

rapes and all sorts of atrocities committed by the i'm us terrorists is that the lens is always really and is now seeing, i mean, do you give credence to bite and they have to walk it back. it 1st went by and said he saw pictures of beheaded babies. what, what's your understanding as well? i mean, certainly the media coverage immediately after october, 7th, uh for weeks and probably longer was quite verandas. um, it was since ation lipstick. it was dehumanizing of palestinians in error, ebs and, and muslims, in general. it was, you know, you're responsible, you know, we saw people carrying these stories, these totally unsubstantiated stories liked to be added babies, which later turned out to be false. um, and there is a, you know, i will say that the, the media record, the record of us media in particular is,

is mixed. there are those who ran with those stories kind of unrepentant lee and i know we haven't seen really corrections, but we've seen other media. we've seen other media, we've seen our kind of learning curve where certain media have adapted and responded much more responsibly since then. and there is much more coverage and there's even a little bit. busy more of self criticism and, and i think so you think you have the new york times responding to the grey, the electronic into father and others did. right. and i, and i think, i think alternative new sources and social media have helped to create a certain kind of accountability for legacy media liked in your times. and they've had to, um, you know, they're being held to account for shoddy journalism. and for unsubstantiated claims,

and so it's really, it's a mixed picture, i think in terms of the media, it's not all as, as for as low as it was in october and november. and it, it is not at all i would say, certainly not ideal. um, but but it's, it's hard to generalize. i mean, certain, some outlets are better than others. um and have improved. others are i have not uh they'll get to the, i'll stop you that more from the former advisor to the palestinian leadership in ramallah right now senior fellow at the middle east institute after this. right. the what is part of the visit that the

employee would post good isn't the the place you of us in building the word part? is it something deeper, more complex might be present there? let's stop without cases. let's go out of the the welcome back to going under run it.

i'm still here with all that he'll getting the former advisor to the palestinian leadership and romano senior fellow and director of the program on palestine and palestinian is really offensive the middle east institute. miss carter, we were talking about the learning curve all the it over the dads of the dead bodies of tens of thousands of palestinians in, in gaza. why do you think on the ground? and i know there may be this learning curve. i understand the sources as a cnn people are the talking against the management at the moment in the coverage of gaza. but in palestine, how much has never been any being more popular. you see how my says, of having been victorious in the sense of any kind of idea of a democratic election that might take place in the west bank, let alone guys a once the nato nation. um, the genocide ends. well, i mean it's, it's hard to say it's, it's, uh, we don't actually know where dozens,

where costs it ends in gaza stand at the moment. it's very hard to do, polling in an environment where people are, you know, constantly just looking for a shelter or trying to not be killed or trying to find some more assault to eat or, you know, get their children to a safe place or to some medical attention, this isn't and, and of course when there are frequent uh, media blackouts, you know, where, where the little tricity is, is scarce and, and people have a hard time connecting their, their phones and other devices to, to the internet. so there's, it's, it's an extraordinarily difficult to gauge public opinion in gaza in this environment. what we do know is, is that there has been a surge in how masses, popularity, at least in the west bank, including in, in east jerusalem and, and among maybe palestinians outside in the dallas,

bro. um and uh, you know, that is not unexpected because her masses is seen as a group that has withstood this huge onslaught the, the most powerful military in the region. they still have not been dismantled or destroyed, much to the frustration of the israeli political and military leadership. and they're seeing us as a, as a group that has inflicted pain and cost on their occupiers. and so for those reasons we, we expect to see a surgeon and from us as popularity, but we don't know what that would translate into in terms of electronics support. um and i, i think collections are very far off. so what we have then is i'm us perhaps more popular in the context of iraq, that's kind of send syria libya a and sue the reputation of these major powers that keep talking by the rule of

it's based order because clearly they're arming. what's happening in gaza and we have israel now the most dangerous place in the world to be and you. so this is, this is where they situation is at the moment. um, i suppose, i mean that was um, i mean its not exactly how i would characterize it, but don't tell me how you would because uh tell me the global south does not support the well. yeah. right. i mean there's that there's going to be kind of sort of the united states there's, there's no question that the so called rules based order has taken a huge hit. i don't know that it can recover. i don't know that the credibility of the countries and states who have claimed to uphold the rules based order in places like you crane. and i don't know that their credibility can ever really be restored . address with the global south. i mean, certainly with the global south, i think it's not

a coincidence that south africa was the country that took up the case of the 4 genocide against israel in the international court of justice. and it wasn't an error of states. it wasn't, it was the majority country, it was so south africa and, and so yes, the global south is, is not only this illusion but quite angry at this very obvious, a double standard and flagrant disregard for the most basic principles of, you know, there's people can debate about self defense and, and when it's justified and what's over the over the limit. that's why we have the laws of war and international humanitarian law. but there's no instance in which the starvation, the deliberate starvation of an entire civilian population could ever be justified for any military or political. and uh,

and so the mirror silence if not tacit or even open support for this policy by these countries i think is, is the vista rated the idea of a rules based order and i don't know that it can recover. and frankly, there's no question about that. um, you know, they're going to it but, and i think their credibility has been shot to a large extent in their own countries in the united states, in the u. k. in germany and other parts of the west where we've seen mass protests, where we've seen major acts of civil disobedience. you have now an entire generation in the west who are completely disillusioned and who don't by the official talking points coming from their leaders anymore. there is a major gap between the ruling and leads in places like the u. s. and the u. k. a n and the grassroots and the public. and,

and we see that every day mean the majority of the population in the us and in the u. k. over whelming, we support a ceasefire and have for many months, but that is not at all where the political leaderships are in these countries. i know that you a sponsored one of the security council resolutions as part of it, is rotating a place on the security council. but why do arab nations take people again to the blinking seriously and meet up with him? i mean, he's a full member of the drums consultancy boss. we know lloyd austin, of course, will perhaps be profiting as a director, raphael, and from the amounts of arms transfer from nato countries to support the israel. mpeg lincoln said i come before you know it as a us extra estate, but as a, as a jew when he arrived at idea of headquarters and tell him even minutes the genocide, why do i really believe does take lincoln seriously. i mean, newland is going in the past few days. i mean, i think there's a number of reasons. one, it's because it's the united states,

even if they dislike very strongly us policy. you cannot ignore the united states, just the mere geo political reality of the united states as a superpower. and that has enormous influence in the region and people. and the just say these are all the money and the ones, the ones you worked with, the both and you work with. they went to moscow. and in fact, only the king of jordan refused to meet joe biden, when he hurriedly came over in the past few months to make some kind of have some people to the visit to the region. yeah, that was early on when they, when they refused to to, to meet with him. he hasn't been the president hasn't been back. um, but uh, you know, the moscow eating. yeah. site. i think, you know, that was largely for so i think at this point,

palestinian factions are each for their own reasons trying to show that they are committed to national unity. um, obviously the united states is not going to host a meeting that includes how mass and other groups that us doesn't accept. and, and so rough as one of the few places that, that can host a meeting like that. russia has an interest in projecting its own power and influence in the region at the expense of the united states. and posted in groups have an interest in demonstrating to the united states that they're not the only game in town. but at the end of the day, the rest has influence is going to be limited. russia doesn't have the depths of its involvement. it doesn't have, i think the credibility with all posted in a groups. and it also, it just, it doesn't have the bandwidth itself to do what's needed. i think it's largely opportunistic. you know, that, that moscow is picking this up well, right?

especially with nobody they deny that. but on the other hand is no jerk. russia saudi arabia, the u. a. what's up with the gc no longer following orders from washington in the past few months, whereas, historically, i'm sure you, you were close observer of those, they would do what washington told them to do. yeah, they're, they're not following orders from washington, but they're also not trying to alienate the united states. they are, they are trying, you know, part of can one do that. but as they have been doing that dance, i don't know how effective it is, but we're talking about resumes to saudi arabia, the u, a. e of egypt that depend very heavily on the united states for their own security . and that in the case of saudi arabia, the energy from the much closer to i think you've already really sorry, security for me. what are the, you know, various regional threats including including your on but i'm not able to run it as

close relations valley view. uranium farm is, are visited and saturday in the middle of the night. so i have to be out of the way . why is it the old middle, he's to think tags in washington believe the to the united states has some sort of umbrella helping, where i'm speaking to you from your on. i'm going to evade the way or south the heck, you know, obviously the, the, the day time is between started or of any ron? that's something that is in saudi's saudi arabia's interest. there's, there's no question about it. and i think it, it's not a coincidence that, that it was broken by china and a think it was a clear signal to the united states. but at the end of the day, you look at the saudi normalization arrangement with israel that had been pursued before october 7th. it was and, and that is still being talked about now. it was in large part to draw the united

states back in to provide security guarantees to the saudis, to, to crew, to recreate a kind of us lead a security architecture in the region. the saudis want that um and that is the only reason they're talking about normalizing windows really, but i mean, i'll remind you, well, i'm interested in ron denies, has really, really hard that i did stage. iran has denies any moves in on that, and there isn't certainly any talk about normalization here in this region. i'll tell you that just briefly on trump gas election in november, which i suppose is the like eventually, even if it's from jail, will it get worse? the situation for the palestinians or given he wants to change in policy, visa the russia, to, to on, with that, with russia. could this pay the way for something follow better than we've seen under the under genocide, joe is gold. i mean it's, it's very hard to say whether it will be better or the worse, worse or the same as far as this issue. i mean, obviously

a trump presidency would have enormous implications for a whole range of domestic issues, but not the least of which is, you know, basic civil liberties. and, uh, and, you know, trump has shown himself to be very unpredictable on foreign policy. it's very hard . he does not have a guy reading, vision or ideology. it is all very personal. it's give you a scene craddick and, and it's transactional and an opportunistic his, his approach to foreign policy. so yes, when it comes to playing to his base, he will say things like, we're going to band students who protest so you know, we're going to band palestinians from entering the country because, you know, you have this anti immigrant sense or incentive phobia that runs through the republican party and so he's going to push those buttons because they're useful for

him. but, but in terms of broader issues about deal politics, it's much, much harder to predict what he would do. you know, the price, we know president biden does not believe in putting any public pressure at all, even on the most extreme government and israel's history. and he's now being criticized by his own party in some circles for 2 uh, 2 types of an embrace of, of netanyahu and is extreme is coalition. whereas with a trump administration, we don't know, what would trump put up with a, a, a intransigent netanyahu government in this to the same degree? i think his ego would dictate that he would at least be willing to challenge that. okay, hold on something. so they'll get to the thank you. yeah, thanks for having me. and that's it for the show. continued condolences to those

bree by the u. k. u. s. u, i'm bombing in palestine 11 in yemen, syria and iraq. we'll be back with a brand new episode on saturday until then keep in touch my last social media. if it's not sense in your country and have to watch, i don't going underground tv on mobile, don't. com. and watching, you know, the upsets of going underground fees at the show. they just don't have to shape out if it comes to after care and engagement because the trail when so many find themselves will support. we choose to look for common ground, the, the,

the, the, the full, you estimate abrams tank is destroyed by russian troops while the british challenge of time donates. do you guys get stuck in the most insane you and it's all captured by a british media outlets. and the tank is just sunk in, slit in an out their way to for recovery day and do you agree live so low? the give citizenship to non muslim for national, leading from i've got it's done bundles ash and focused on presence of consent among lovely minorities and does the garden health system as being broad. so it means all these special, projecting human shields documents. the story of adults of post i'm to take his own