this is the, [000:00:00;00] the hello and welcome to cross talk. we're all things are considered. i'm peter live out. big talk empty words. how else to interpret the contradictory pronouncements coming out of europe and capitals on the subject of ukraine. bluster and threats are not a coherent policy. in fact, it is an indication of panic. meanwhile, remember,

russia does not bluff. it acts the cross talking ukraine. i'm joined by my guess. anthony webber in word think he is an independent political commentator in belgrade. we go to stephen gaiety. he is a research associate at bell grades, institute of european studies, and in lisbon we cross alexander guerrero. he is an international legal analyst, right. gentleman prospect rolls in effect, that means you can jump in any time you want. and i always appreciate a steve, and let me go to you 1st. and in belgrade as an outside observer, like i am of all of this going on in europe of who's speaking for whom. and what is the message when it comes to ukraine? steven, that is a very good question because we see a lot of move walkers here who are sending different messages. and i think that is because they are in between the natal agenda,

which is escalate story and if the situation of ukraine and with there are really 3 industries, we're going better, they would probably even be more aggressive. and on the other side, they have their own people who have no idea why the, how are their armies already involved when it comes to sending aid and perhaps people. and they are especially not happy about the possibility of direct a war between these respective countries. in the rush, so that is why the politicians are jumping on on this hot rocks and trying to somehow navigate between between the agenda that they all have and, and their own population. so that is why we hear shots say one thing or on the other as well. look around, this name is been mentioned already and say let me go to the only thing that chrome and, and napoleon have in common is they were both small man. other than that, there is no similarity here. why is the chrome mouse being off the way he does? remember at the beginning of all this,

he was the dog now he's turning around and calling anyone that disagrees with them, a coward. what's the evolution of a crowd near a? well he's, he's bullied back to the topics on multi site because he's now sighing. but some of the see key piece. this is the role with a piece yet. encouraging. uh, the escalation is somehow encouraging piece, which is absolutely ridiculous, but sound good. that's right. but not from the stall shouldn't be chapman, pets and sorry to pro is not super clear. um, i will try to do the 5 for the mail. that's a, um are you got people like nights i saturday, general site and what you'd probably needs is munition. i'm not swear the quotes of dates, hunter, i should because they, the reality is throughout europe there's actually no unification. that's

all that we're speaking with. different voices. you're going to be you present. i'm trying to sign the united states when they're actually not. and we're, we've got a situation here where they're going to have to face the fact that the client has actually been losing this conflict for some considerable time and how, how they actually going to deal with that. but the added problem is there's a loss of elections in the countries to see it. yeah. and the key points about all of this is not one trunk trait. perhaps a pop, i've been all say opinion. so i don't know if these policies are gates, russia, i'm supporting the current governments and you, right, we have any minds, i will set that up and that's very key. i'm going to talk about democracy. there's no democracy, there's always more money. oh,

this huge expenditure public money without any overall so you for this is and then so the bodies, it's done. so he's and that's why didn't but take to the bar in the united kingdom is spent 12000000000, sorry, fall, so 1000000000 which is solely need to develop. i is, i'm at the same time. assumptions are getting frustrated, rebounded, and the cases of this i've had huge rises and the cost of energy and the costs of living. and it's a disaster situation. i bought the pump, they can also allow me to have an opinion on this is a big uh, there's a lot said about the fact that people in russia doesn't have an opinion which are allowed to go forward. and then you'd probably be the media's some controls, but you call another well you, you could have an opinion, it'll just be censored. okay, that is that's, that's their method that alexandra, you know,

we had the lot being president in the i refer to the both the republics as the baltic chihuahuas on this program. he said he was quartered in saying russia must be destroyed. well, isn't that nice coming from a little country like lafayette and also we have other baltic republic saying that the u. k. should return conscription. so how do you react to that? it's nice in another country banks, another country should have conscription. what is a lot, be a good to throw into the, into the mix here. i mean, how many you halls, full of weapons do they have alexander? it's easier for them to say this, the i kind of catching the wave and the reminded me that plastic case of the younger brother who trusted deezen bully, everyone because he knows that he has an older brother that can go to his rescue in case of trouble so he seems to me that the 3 residents from the baltic states are on the heads of the argument. they behaving this way because they know that they have someone on their back that will try and please not only to follow what they

are saying, but at the same time to protect them and to, to confirm these words. however, lucky and that's the only has nothing but we have only a also seen weeks ago that for example, denmark promised to send all the material artillery. they had the support to grant . and then you realize it's only 14 hope beaches. so it's not much. but at least to the finally called us when that's right to say that we are giving whatever we have a speaking of prescription, for example, i speak for him knowing the situation and menu opinion and countries easier to say for the great names to keep fighting until the last 2 brain, but when it comes up to the, to the situation where our own citizens should be deployed to the battle ropes of the battlefield, then that's a whole different story. that's kind of solution. usually most the majority of the people did not support. we've unplugged to send our signs our grandchildren to the war, but we want the other seems like for us, because if you see,

even from frances, press, the press for the french residents words. what he says usually is we are going to the boy as some of the lead gary in some way, are you great? and she wasn't. she was too vague. but at the same time, she's not saying that she's going to confront the russian because she knows how unpopular such words would be understood by the french or from what i understand alexander's a, it's 6768 percent of french people. paul, do not want french soldiers going to ukraine. again, this is an elite agenda, you know, stephen, one of the things, you know, when i look at these european leaders and i don't know, my guess my problem this as an inferior already complex or he's competing with sergeant schultz or something like that. anyway, we don't need political science, we need psychologists, i suppose to understand these people, but you know, the moral ization rusher must not be allowed to win. what does that mean stephen? that means that they have a problem with the numbers and,

and with reading what is going on on the ground. but it is also a very dangerous path because these words can eventually turn it into uh into moves uh, which will cause escalation. the scenario, the possible scenario that i see is that uh at the beginning, you would have nato forces over to enter west lake. and practically police a occupied to be quite blunt. uh, they would practically be occupation forces in ukraine in central right. and your brain perhaps you have to. but there the point of them being there a would be to release old, the police man. all the national guard and honor security forces of ukraine to go to the me drive or in the east. and that is how i call a slow escalation and slow. and i sent you both into the can actually become

a lot of i was even steve. and these are you bring up an interesting point here. so if you are ukranian, cells are being sent to the meat grinder and there's some french guy sitting in a cafe in care. but what do you think he's good to think my life is worth less than the french guys. steven? exactly. i think they are they, i mean this was done from the beginning, but i think now they're starting to realize that on the front you see that the people are doing everything to try to not end up in the mead rider. people are bribing the local uh, maybe 3 authorities. they're trying to rescue themselves by running away on the border and they're being caught and then sends to the mean brian or, i mean this is the dire situation of man in ukraine. is really something that should be uh, called a humanitarian catastrophe. but it is not, i mean, this is against, uh, uh, the, the, the war war. this is against uh, any kind of up unless it ethics of,

of war. but that is exactly what we're seeing. well, i'm glad i'm glad you brought up the word ethics here. let me go to anthony. now, i mean lindsey graham o pines again, you know, he's complaining of the conscripting age is too high. they need to lower. we need to get these younger guys here. i mean, it's just amazing to see how western politicians are willing to do using ukrainians as cannon fodder. and they always say it and know american troops. i mean, what a ghoulish way to approach things, anthony. this is terrible. i lost a base. i who brushed and read is not, are actually has the amount of tree experience themselves. the sites are quite happy for other people to type type the races, but not then, but not very sums endorses and a such as of to try to find the situation because of the printing casualties. so paul, a 1400000 pets died weight and did michigan not shit and shifted

a on to suddenly the washington casualties about 288000 equivalent. so the situation is almost kind of over from the crime point of view, and it's very much like the, the dying grace of not see job the right people to stop taking to surrender at so the old mass, but there were a few die off people around but it's concerning a bit of as some people, particularly in the united states and indeed in the country who will be happy for the ukrainian bio population. but states are be wipes out just to satisfy that. right. so the car away is a blood glass. less is what it is here, gentlemen. right here, we're approaching a hard break and after that hard break, we'll continue our discussion on you can stay with our team

the, what is part of the, the employee would put to isn't the dfcs you was sent that in the word? or is it something deeper, more complex might be present? let's stop without pages. let's go out of or

the . the welcome back across huck were all things are considered out in peter roosevelt your mind you were discussing. you create the . okay, let's go to alexander in lizard. let's keep with this, this theme of a true, a nato troops being sent to central ukraine, western ukraine as an exemplary for sort of something like that. we train, wow, i don't know, but, but you know, is that is, is there

a built in assumption on the part of nato think or is if that's not a contradiction in terms of that the russians wouldn't dare to touch those troops. that's a pretty big assumption to have. alexander. yes, do you think the next step of course, the russians, i can see the russians having to we're logging dashing through hits nato's troops wherever they are, regardless if they are in need. so terry, 3 stories they are in your brain, west of eastern, west and central, whatever. but at the same time, we have just the focused and to the to see what's, what would be the mission of these nathan troops are, where are they going to be deployed? and they're only the french spots are obese, posted by the french, or are they going to be gray sponsors by nasal? this will be the decisive factor in order to decide and when the stand talk and the russians deal with these forces at the same time. because we have seen so far that there are

a lot of military stocks from the countries in you. great. not only gatherings for meetings, not only for the technical purposes, but they have been there and many of them have been dying in the battlefield. the problem is to see if they are going to attempt to print new troops in certain areas, or if they are going to start any kind of look at the action in order to force russia to a deck and then use russia all addictions 1st. in 1st place, but i don't see any kind of being fashion from nato countries or even by france alone. you start any kind of conflict, ultimately contact our course dealer cameras. but alexander, if they're in the battle field, they're in the battle space. what differences of make, i don't think, you know, if these forces, whatever they're doing with their aiding and abetting a military to kill russian soldiers. so they are the enemy as well. how could it be different? yes, the problem is if they publicly it means that they are on the ground,

while at least through the present time to have never admitted that they worried about the rock. they weren't the battlefield. they were not the only friends. they're not only german, the police, but also from the united states. they have b u, during confrontations. the problem is that people look funny. now that they are assuming you being bullied, then they want to start to use it as being some kind of trigger in order to go to create any kind of facing a possibility with russia. okay, talking about triggers. well then stephen, let's, let's think about it logically, i know western leaders, they'll do this, okay. but, you know, then, you know, we have the article 5 come into into play here, okay? i mean, if, if they're going to go into the battle space, okay, and there is a exchange, there are casualties, then they're in a stage of war. but then you, nato cannot invoke the article 5 because they've already violated article one, that they would not go into a military conflict here. so i mean they're, they're shredding their own logic and their own law. go ahead,

stephen. we're going into a philosophical discussion now because what nato has been doing for the last 2 years, if not much longer, is to get involved as much as possible into the war. but for the rest of the world, the thing that nato is not into words. so phrases check resolved, has made its coalition for munitions, and so they are gathering together them, deployed $800155.00 millimeters shelves from they, they claim they bought it in, in the south korea and other countries. and other major companies are involved in this kind of wherever they are pretending to be dropped mid ito. but that this is a, some kind of coalition of the willing, remember that phrase from 2003 when bush a back to iraq. so it wasn't made, so it was called vision of the willing. so what they're doing now is exactly that, nathan wells or right. well steve and i can up the anti here. adelene a better bach? what 1? 80 degrees?

better boxy wants to have somehow german missiles are sold to the british so the british can send them to ukraine. i don't know what kind of food was raised by the weight, but it would see for some reason not the defense minister would be able to control coordinates. i'd be a, this is getting insane and some of the react to that. well, the it is in the sign and we've close our pretty is the same the on the defense i to try ground start sees likely to, to get along with that. but there are consequences for the current rate, which um, i'll get started, hopefully involved in helping a, a bison eco russian soldiers and in the u. k. e. do you guys just lost the major fishing agreement with brochure? um, which is today were the staple dogs and many people in the united kingdom, official objects and go back out to see

a sky roasting increase in the price of fish in the united kingdom. because that's the thing we're talking about. i think russia is actually paying for my mazda resonates reaction to various european country. so the anthony, let me do this on this special issue here. so the british public will be denied fish, but the russian public will be able to eat fish yet. how is that a sanction? well, the good, i'm sorry, good. well, well, they go rebounded again. see if i can get them by the looks of it. consequences of having such a policy because the, the due date. so i can sure exactly work. but if we guys got to the subject side of people killed, there's only the b 5900. the 62 on soldiers killed in, in the ukraine. a good proportion of visor in the united kingdom. and uh, it's been a bit of

a tougher off how much longer of the bushes. public goods be denied the information because they're supposed to be you guys have delta dental of intelligence to help with the training to make sure the flight of homes is all i retire. i. but in reality that how things are right offensive operations. again, instruction forces, i'm not so now i'm not saying all of this, they know empowerment, show a pharmacy in the united kingdom. and so you conduct for like actions against russia and already the united kingdom and government. so maybe i'll take out the lens, all trucking a very fine line with volt battery. well i, i suppose this is one of the applications of the rules based order that we keep hearing about. ok. you break all the rules because we want to control that determine what is order. this is ridiculous here. alexander, you,

we have. speaker johnson in the united states is talking about a stand alone bill for more aid ukraine. i thought he'd come to his senses, but he hasn't. of course. um, an interestingly enough for republican house control, there's going to give bite in the political when an election year. explain that to me here, but it's not going to make any difference, any one the knows. i've listen to a lot of military experts, and this is just the way, okay, of course companies in the united states, they will of a benefit, but this is not going to benefit ukraine. to be honest, i think that even speaker jonathan doesn't know what kind of a stand alone they take is. will this be because he's proposal still presents very vague tires? we both know yet how is it even going to be submitted on the formal way, but at least it appears that she will try to boost for some kind of single and autonomous proposal disconnected from

a barrel of concessions that have to other political measures sought by democrats and by rebuttal, alexander it's been mentioned here, um, a new land lease. i don't even think the majority of congressmen even know with that term historical term is how is that work? i mean, ukraine is couldn't pay the united states back after all of this. i mean, they, they either, they, they don't know anything about history or they're just finding a new way to live the people, alexander, it was kind of that, that, for example, president former president trump this weekend and just call or that kind of alone, lowering least that this is simply just does not exist in practice, for example, even in the union, we have exactly the same aspect. we keep funding, we are way to fund your brain and you granary, lowly start to pay back up to 10 years within 10 years. so i did, but no one knows, and everyone at the same time knows how will you brain going is going to pay for? well, i think there, there's a, there's

a way that no one's thought about as they should tax ukraine's oligarchy because they are the ones that are making so much money off of this work. i mean, the basement side and personal, you know, loan, you know, that, you know, they've got to pay it back. of course, it's nonsense, that's not going to happen here. we're rapidly running out of time. steven. um, i think this is a, we're the kind of a turning point here. i think there's so much panic and desperation in the air that we have discussed on this program. um, where's that, what's the next step? where are we going? the one thing that the west is the only vanishing in being the desperate because of both, instead of just to drink his victory speech that russia does, it does not want a fake piece which will last for a year and a half or 2 years. so that the, uh, you know, uh, military industrial complex uh, in the western countries uh, gets uh ahead of the game so that they can send enough weapons to the front line. so russia was a political solution,

and i think the political solution with the parents leaves in the west and with the current a government in ukraine or even ukraine as such, is possible. that is why i expect the russia to secure as borders. i'm putting, again said that there should be a buffered so that the cities in, in russia are safe and secure. yeah, i mean there's, you know, do we have on this program? we have talked about this quite a bit. and my only concern is, is that i want an end to this conflict immediately. ok. however, in russia does not want to be put into a position where ukraine re arms for 5 years, and they start all over again. that is the problem. that's the problem. keep go, go ahead. that is why west wanted the career scenario. they all right. yates, north carolina, north south korea situation in the middle of europe, and the roster doesn't want that. it doesn't want to have a constant threat on its borders, but it wants to have a,

a sustainable security architecture in european continent. and that is, this is exactly what it was proposing some 1015 years ago, and what it was continuously proposing during the main main sk agreements and even until today. but they are not going to be a willing to go for another fake agreement, which will only buy time for a, for a 2nd. let's say punch that the russia i should uh, should guess from the west. uh so that is why i think it's more inflict as much damage as it can and it will probably uh solve this uh in military. yeah. so when it must in worth the security is guaranteed for all, i don't know how we do that, but that's how it must and or, oh this will happen again gentlemen. that's all the time we have a one to think, my guessing weird thing. bell. great. and in lisbon, and of course, i want to thank our viewers for watching us here at r t c. and next time, remember across on

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the we are in north of cities in the caucus as mountains where beautiful people have been coming together to celebrate the ancient traditions. since the beginning of time itself, where everything has a special symbolic meaning. i'm so i'm thomas, this isn't my vision. and today we're discovering of the world of a subject culture, the contributor . even if we pd you with story, ok, school level, don't use it for stuff, a campus procedure shifting. it's because each time she couldn't. miller well collected ftp 2 photocopy slip to discuss the dc on this before they have to do is to make sure that you create excuse. but i mean, you're supposed to sort of go stories of disposable cleaning. some the doors not say that the once it's done,

it's conflicting the thoughts about pushing of centuries ago. your forebears name this country ukraine or frontier because your steps blink, europe, and asia, the ukrainians that become frontiersman of another. so these people will be able to send these will be some of those which i like most of them is always, you know, going to use to try to jump with most goals. they would have been that much a lot of the heavily negligence common 0.9. you post pro case gift to 2nd, the will have to okay. and it depends on the, the,

[000:00:00;00] the, the damage will be inevitable. must go warns of repercussions of the e. u. modes over using almost all of the infrastructure and assets of a crude and european funds to keep funding kids in the ukraine conflict. also coming up in the program of regional counseling, you train owners and in to this nazi veteran telling us that west attempts the white horse, the scum less image of western leaders up loading the same gun us bob homecare in the canadian part of the law and conflicting statements out of washington,