while the exec data of the night of the city remains on specified, muslims believe that little gods falls on one of the number of nights in the last 10 days. so frame of on the 27th night being the most probable one. however, there's also a tradition suggesting it could fall on any of the last the nights and there on the 19th 21st and 23rd nights are the most common lee observed. it seems like this can be seen a lot more across. alonzo denied as of yesterday. i didn't get an extra layer of for to the past few months of these people will stay on the night. the prayer and reflection on to the break of dawn seeking to verify their phones. i'm at the bottom of the line. it's fine with switching essentially on the screen during the full capital. i'm not sure i'm used to what he thinks the company here in on the international this saturday we bought with 10 people at the top that the

action redundancy. welcome back to going underground, broadcasting all around the world from the u. a in a week. that's all the most famous john list in the world. julian hassan is given a reprieve from de facto death in the usa instead of the 3 weeks. at least of torture in london is described by former un special rebel to niels meltzer on this program. there has been another un special rapids report though rubble to francesca albanese, and that's a be of a genocide called for an immediate arms embargo of israel and reparations to be paid to gaza. the designation of genocide enabled by the usa u. k. and new nations came up to view and security council, except for the usa budget for a rama, done ceasefire and gaza,

up to tens of thousands. mostly women and children have been sort of accompanied by nato, a nation on age of facilitated aerial bombardment of human iraq and syria. syria, of course, was one area with nathan nation. think you made devices named exclusively by nature for last week's massacre at the quote, the city constituted in moscow and atrocity by are by nature back to ukraine authorities. one scholar who has back to sondra, posed us forever, was, had refused to cool the proxy war. and ukraine unprovoked is professor steven wall, the author of origin, software alliances, and the israel lobby. and the u. s. foreign policy co authored with professor john much i'm a he is the robot and renee bill for a professor of international affairs at the harvard kennedy school and joins me now from brooklyn, massachusetts. thank you so much of as well. and for coming on before we get to the genocide, the us, we've given this 3 weeks, i know the case itself. uh, the documents, the library in time. uh no one really seems to understand it and talk to seas. now

casey's in britain have told me they've never seen anything like why of useable to julie in the sense as well? because i don't believe doing the science committed uh, espn to us. he was operating much as journalists do. he received classified information that was linked to him by people in the us government. but that's no, no different than people leading information to the new york times of so to single him out as a particularly egregious case and to accuse him of espionage that seems to me inappropriate. i might add that governments around the world, including the us government leak information when they want to, to journalists, when they're trying to advance a particular policy. and they're trying to spend a story in a particular way. and given that assigned to us in my judgement, acting much in the same way the journal and all journals do, i'll be in a different platform to have singled him out in this way and threatened him with long present sentence. you know, possibly a life sentence strikes me,

it's just inappropriate. and if he were extradited and subsequently convicted in the united states, i think you will have a chilling effect on press freedom here in the united states. which would be unfortunate because one of the things we expect the press to do for us has informed us about secrets that the government is trying to keep from us. and in particular, when those policies are going or why the public needs to be informed about them, that of course, most journalists understand that. but if they can be thrown in jail or reporting information that is linked to them by people inside the government, then i'd be able to have a chilling effect on the rest of the media. i know the papers of record that i do supports him, have written articles in favor of him, but surprised by how little attention is being given to the assigned case in the united states and what it means for press freedom in the u. s. given that it means any conviction would open the doors to the jailing of the editor of the new york

times and the washington post and who knows who else? i think part of the problem here, of course, is this case is taking a long time and it's been, you know, he's been incarcerated on various grounds. he was, uh, you know, heidi out in the ecuadorian embassy for many years and in some respects i think attention the short attention span of modern society has been such that his case has not gotten as much attention. he's been off the headlines. i believe if he is expedited, if the case goes through, he comes to the united states and he stands trial, then the case is going to get an enormous amount of attention. precisely because media organizations are going to be very worried about the implications because it could be because some of those journals favor vide and in november, and it's a by and justice department, but in the, by the ministration we've seen the i'm a leading chanel from the state department and now the state department official who has resigned over the side in the gaza. assange, you know, we have the you as a rapids over in georgia saying is being tortured by british authorities. this week

we see a un special happened during palestine. alban easy cooling out of the war and gaza as genocide. what is it done to the reputation with the united states all around the world? the just that loading the hand from there? you and you as an investor to view and then it's almost greenfield at the united nations security council. i think this is an enormous negative effect on the american image, and it's exposed to the inconsistency or the hypocrisy with which we talk about a, a rules based order. in a sense, what we're seeing now is what america calls a rules based order being juxtaposed against existing international law. so the united states have stay in cyber security council resolution. and before the ink is even dried, the american investor says, well, it's really not a binding resolution. what does that mean? and perhaps a spokesman, what, what i don't know be for your, and i have no idea of how that kennedy's. oh no, but i, i don't know why she said that because i don't think that has any basis in the

internet. so lots, all right. un resolutions, particularly those that use the kind of language that this resolution, obvious security, kind of that yeah, at the security council saying that they demand an immediate cease, fire cetera. these are binding how, how you enforce them is a separate question, but they are considered binding and the parties involved they're supposed to adhere to the. so for the united states to abstain for to let it go through a small shift in american policy. and then basically to refer to it as non binding is a way of diluting what we had just done. essentially walking it back a little bit, a little bit more. and the problem, of course, is around the world that makes us look deeply hypocritical, that this rules based order we like to talk about is basically our making up the rules. and when we don't like an existing set of rules, we either ignore them or we expect them to be changed, and that's just not a very appealing image of. so i think the combination of the way the united states has responded to the tragedy in casa,

and the way in which it is now talking about it has under cut the american image in all sorts of places. i understand that the chapter 7 resolution with authorized military force in back in a un security council resolution. what does that mean then that this week we've witness be the end of the united states participation in the u. n. project towards united, $45.00. and i mean, what, i know it is a binary reservation that you and themselves said, you know, it's international that resolution to $7.00 to $8.00 for sale. so i, i don't that i think that it's taking it too far. the united states, of course, will continue to use the united nations to try and advance its own interest the same way. other countries to the problem is that when you are agreed just lead inconsistent. this is going to undermine the sort of political capital that the united states has in many parts of the world. doesn't make it impossible for the united states to elicit other countries cooperation. it's just going to make it more difficult going forward. and i think we're already seeing that in

a variety of different places. the fact, for example, that south africa, what independently decided to bring its application to the international court of justice regarding a possible genocide and cause that is a show of independence on the part of south africa that you might not have expected in earlier years. and i think it reflects unhappiness with how the united states and some other countries are responding not only to this crisis, prices in general, but also to the basic state of the present world. or, well, i referred to that resignation of the state department. do you think entity blinking understands what you were just saying there? because the last i saw it was still talking about the fact saudi arabia would make a deal with israel. i know, i believe, said the secretary blanking is stuck in a and outdated view of what's happening in the middle east. and also, i think feels caught as the rest of the administration does between a sort of a rock and a hard place. they are in a terrible bind of what they're doing. they understand it's doing damage to the

american image abroad. they understand it might be causing sufficient unhappiness in parts of the united states. and with the progressives in the united states that threatens biden's re election. but they also understand that if they do the right thing and say, cut off americans support or threaten to cut off american support. israel, they'll say some backlash from pro israel forces in the united states. so in a sense they understand or in a very difficult situation, my ceiling is if you are going to be damned, if you do damned if you're doubt, you ought to do the right thing both morally, but also in terms of advancing basic american interest. and that would be to be putting it norm as pressure on israel to stop what it's doing, agree to a cease fire, get the hostages released, and then move forward to trying to adjust solution in the middle east. because i know you're being a 5 and critic of the leading opposition contend in your country and november donald trump and old trump speaking writing or in an interview in

a newspaper owned by sheldon adelson, hire newspaper. and israel said israel is lot, lot losing lots and lots of support is made a very big mistake. it'll catalyze anti semitism. i mean, that's the kind of woods that i don't know i'd expect from a stephen. well, dr. cool. yeah. in this case, donald trump is right, i don't think that qualifies him to be our next president, but he's called that one correctly. but how do you detect the difference that given that he's so dependent on pro israel pro nothing, yahoo pro. the design is in a cabin a well, i'm not sure that's true or a. so both political parties collect donations from pro israel forces and pro israel individuals. trump is also got lots of other bases of support. and i think he, because he's running or you're going to be running against spies and is looking for ways to distinguish himself from the biden administration. and if he can do that,

he's likely to win some support from people who are unhappy without vitamins handled this particular crisis. and you believe that the public postering that is being given out since a 100000 voters in the michigan primary wanted to know and as opposed to fighting in november, which you you're saying is wiring the democrats. do you believe the fostering that there's this big difference between button and that's and you or is that for the public and for the voting base, why the continues to send munitions bad thoughts and weapon rate and that's in the other. yeah, i think that there are growing differences so many of just about every american presenter just had to deal with that in yahoo. it's down to him, difficult to deal with and for the vice and destruction to have been so supportive of what israel is doing, supported a bit of material sense, but also as we've talked about, protecting and in the security council,

and then to be treated with essentially contempt by the netanyahu ministration, basically saying, well thank you for your support and we're going to do what you want is bound to annoy people who have a previous presidents have said no to is riley bram. you guys have yeah on. i might have to remind the awesome as well there's a number of cases when israel and data is less than in the regular administration. eventually reagan called up my knocking bag and basically told him to stop and he is really stop the season. they route at that point. so there been a few moments where american presidents have been able to and i think bush as well as why doesn't by and do that. i don't know, i to be perfectly honest. i, as i've said a number of times before, i think president biden and secretary blinking are stuck with a sort of old image of israel. i do think they're also worried about the political ramifications here. but as i said before, they're going to be hurt either way. they're concerned, by the way,

with it's not so much that you know, public opinion will shift, although it is uh, shifting i think now the majority of americans in polls are unhappy with how israel is treating this. but i think the big worry for biden's is not only error of american voters in a few key states, but also the left wing of the democratic party. is it going to vote for trump, but they may stay home? they'll simply not turn out in the numbers that biden is going to need. they're not going to help the campaign and the numbers that bite and would like to see. i think their hope is that you'll eventually get a ceasefire before the election. you can start trying to essentially spin this as a tragedy, but we're now moving forward and it won't be front and center in the minds of many voters. i hope they are right in how i'd like to see a ceasefire immediately. but whether or not that actually happens that information to be seen, and i'm not actually all that optimistic as steve and walt,

i'll stop you. the more from the harvard kennedy school divisor of engine natural affairs. after this break the, the, the, there's no end and side over how you're going to continue to destroy the earth. is the case for the med, most of the people. i tried to go to the gym, but i'm certainly not ready to fight russia. this is also of soon. this is the 3rd world lunacy re washing as for so the funder line likes to say, we have the tools while we just start with stability and business deals. living on that, we have very close propaganda. you know, a price here in new york. i think we don't know the aftermath any time that you're not allowed to ask questions, you should ask all of the questions. the more questions ask, the better the answer is will be

the will go back to going on the right. now i'm still here with professor of international affairs at harvard kennedy schools, steven weld professor at the end of $51.00. we were talking about, i buy them. i went to spend the genocide. i don't know when old women and children have been killed. but one thing is special, russia and china, it'd be lock step at the un security council opposing the united states and britain in front policy on, in the middle east. and of course, roger and china have been working together on the proxy war in ukraine. why have you insisted on calling it provokes, in a sense, in your work on ukraine, rather than unprovoked, which is loudly shouted out almost by journalists on so called mainstream media in your country and the nature of countries, it, again, it gets so i think very much that the test now what do you mean by provoked when i say the war was provoked?

i mean, that the united states and nato took actions, which drove russia to ultimately decide to invade, beginning 1st in 2014. of course, the seizure of cry me. and then full scale war in 202022. to say that the united states took action as the health cost that does not justify what russian did, what russia has done is illegal. it's a violation of international the same thing about cost of a presumably in the i think it's the 25th anniversary of you just not is distraught instruction. that's right. oh and do night states invading iraq in 2003. it was a violation of internet for the law, so i'm not defending russia's actions. i'm trying to explain russia's actions. and they regarded the american attempt along with nato to gradually incorporate ukraine into the western security order. ultimately, leading to nato membership as an ex essential threat, we can argue about whether or not they should have seen it that way. but the point

is they did, and they made that clear from 2008 ford. and we continued on this path, even when they threatened to do something about it militarily, we did not take those threats sufficiently seriously. and that again, does not justify, would put this done. it certainly does not justified the way the weight's, the war. the attacks on civilians of what are probably war crimes. eventually none of that is justified by the fact that american policy helped bring this about. and unfortunately we did this and the victims, the primary victims of our diplomatic and strategic mistakes and rust is illegal invasion are ukrainians who are so the to the last ukrainian as many and the global is that the observed, why is, is this opinion that you're coming out with and it was roger denies any will crime does as we went into say, well, the defect a genocide of russians because it needs a new grain. is your opinion and your perspective being a little pervasive now in washington. and then it was say in 2022 as well as is

often the case going to war breaks out. it's difficult to have a rational conversation about it. and i think there was, people were so quick to water blame moscow for everything pinned is entirely on vladimir putin and rally as much public support for the ukrainians as possible to, to even try to point out that western actions played a role in creating this situation. it was very difficult, politically, i think now because there's so much evidence to support that position, that we unwittingly, unintentionally helped to create this for now, people are willing to acknowledge it and more over as we're reaching a point where people begin to understand that ukraine is probably not going to win her, grow it to victory here. it is almost certainly going to end up losing territory when there is a final piece. agree with the settlement that's i think encouraging people to go back and ask the question, well how exactly did we get here?

how might we have avoided this? was there a diplomatic solution either before the war broke out, or in the 1st few months of the war that might have avoided all of the suffering that has occurred since then it's, it's all come to legs and so by blinking then new newland to nibble. sullivan seemed to be talking more about keynesian militarism ok to the us electorate. forget about the great and forget about all the mass. kidding, that needn't have happened. i think about the great money being recycled, that we say is going to ukraine, but we'll improve the lives of ordinary americans. as that surprise you usually proxy was whether it would be central america or latin america. they wouldn't be too. so openly about the fact they would be profitable or yeah, well, you, to the former secretary state many years ago, dean acheson once said that advocacy must be clearer than the truth. right. and i think what's happened here is the administrators very much wants to get the

$60000000000.00 of additional support for ukraine approved by congress. so they will pull out every conceivable argument they can think of that like, went over some congressional support, maintain public support for it. i don't think they're doing this because they want ukraine to bleed russia forever. you fighting to the last ukranian? i think they also recognize that you credit is not going to be able to liberate all of its loss. territory was military force. i think what they're hoping to do is keep the ukraine in the fight and improve its bargaining position. and if biting is re elected then, and the 2nd term, they will actually begin pushing much harder for a cease fire there. and armistice and interventional piece agree. that's not going to be difficult, or that's not gonna be easy for them to do. but i think there's a certain sense of realism as to where this one is headed. they just wanna make sure that ukraine doesn't collapse between now and then getting worse and worse as

it is. and of course, so yeah, donald trump said, uh, he would, the end it ended tomorrow. what are you making all of the fact that certainly in the global south let alone in moscow, people are drawing links. nothing has been fully established with yet between isis cables and to see which is previously being associated with use us intelligence agencies and ukraine. and the proxy war itself uh, let alone uh, the us policy visa be, is lists in syria are in the like. yeah, i tend to be relatively skeptical when people draw a very elaborate connections between a variety of separate phenomena. and i think one can are, you wouldn't have during 911. that was pretty crazy or the $911.00 was pretty complicated, wasn't it, wasn't it? no, it wasn't a complicated plot in the sense that it involved all sorts of mysterious parties.

well, it really involved the history of us foreign policy in you get to the how the actually the, the majority and, and that's kind of stuff. yeah. any case, i think we can have a person, monique, this explanation of the terror attack in moscow, which planes it on isis k, which has its own reasons for going after moscow, given the relationship between moscow and it's muslim population. since some of the actions russia is taken in the past and i don't think one has to drag into ukrainians, are necessarily drag in the united states of america as though we had something to do with this. we did in the sense that our actions in the middle east, in past decades created the conditions and which groups like isis k emerge. that in that sense, we have a certain historic responsibility here. but i would need to see some really a convincing evidence before i think the united states was somehow involved in trying to arrange that or even that the ukrainians were involved in trying to reach

it. do you think this $60000000.00 is going to be sent to the landscape? how hard is it going to be for bite? and i mean, there's supposed to be electrons in ukraine in may. so that's because band shirts, opposition bodies. because it means going to band elections the due in may. it's gonna be difficult to sell that to the american public. i don't think the american public, you're paying that much close attention to be honest. i think they're looking at the very big picture. how is ukraine doing? i believe, although i can't prove it, i believe that the money will eventually be approved. because at the end of the day, republicans in congress would like to pin what's happening in ukraine on the bite and administration. and they don't want to get blamed if between now and the election. ukraine loses a lot more territory you credit and begins to collapse militarily, etc. they want this all on jo biden's desk because they understand it's not going to be looked like a big success story. and so approving me,

age is their way of saying, okay, we're letting you run this and then we're going to attack you for how badly it's going come to fall in the election. and of course, that will be a big part of the drums, a pitch as well, but he doesn't want to give bite and the obvious counter to say, well, i would have been doing just fine if the republicans in congress that just supported this. that's why i think the aid will go through. i don't think it will alter the, the, you know, the situation on the battlefield in any kind of decisive way. it will help you create it. and again, it will not allow them to reverse their fortunes. and all the time west, in your opinion, i'll make decline shocks for the 60000000000 isn't being the sense. do you think people in western europe generally get the feeling they being use over this proxy war as a passions for it? wayne in the state department and the wife has yeah, i don't think that they are feeling used about this. i think there are considerable concerns in europe about what the future american commitment to european security

is going to be. europeans have been a custom for decades to thinking of the united states as the 1st responder when it came to european security. if there was a problem, washington would take care of it. i think it's in america is long term interest for european countries to take much greater responsibility for their own security. and we're seeing a molding like from start as a, you know, that no, uh, uh, the, uh, uh, even a broken clock is right twice a day. um, yeah, but in any case the, this process of europeans taking on more responsibility should be done in a sort of cop cooperative, gradual way, not under the pressure of an ongoing war. i'll put that in any case. your question was, are the europeans be feeling use? i don't think that's the case. i think your parents may be feeling somewhat uncertain about how they're going to provide for themselves. if the united states

is not as focused on european security as it has been for the past 50 years, and the media reports in western european media that russia will then take over poland and invade at an a france, my crew. and i just say what, why is it where is this barrier coming from? i think it's coming from an attempt to inflate a set of dangers in order to galvanize a european public response. and in some cases to persuade americans to, to, to do even more. but this idea that the russian army is going to finish the job in ukraine a rest for a couple of weeks and then started going after the rest of europe, i think is completely absurd. the, your 1st of all, the russian army has suffered a lot. they've experienced lots of losses in ukraine that will take a long time to rebuild. and 2nd, even with a sort of 3 to one advantage and manpower and artillery and things like that.

they're having a very tough time. i don't think they want to learn fans the bracket ology. it's also like that's also true. so this idea that if pollutant is not stopped in ukraine and doesn't suffer a massive defeat, that he is going to launch some blitzkrieg western europe. i think it's great. it is a fantasy. i just very briefly, i didn't actually britain this week. they think china is amazing, written just very briefly though we shouldn't expect any. um actually blacks. one event has been in the news recently. i mean use of the tensions when they run in an election year by the state department of life, joe biden. i certainly hope not. i mean, one of the interesting phenomena since the cause of war began is the fact that both the united states and iran have tried to signal to each other in various ways. but they don't want this to turn into a big or middle explore. and they certainly don't want it to lead to a direct clash of arms between iran and the united states. i think that makes very

good sense for, from washington's perspective. it also makes very good sense from terrence perspective. and so i am hopeful that cooler heads will continue to prevail on that front, even if there are problems elsewhere in the region that are deeply troubling, provides us even. well, thank you. nice talking with you. and that's of, of the show of continued condolences to those bree by u a. k u. s. u, i'm bombing in palestine 11 and yemen, syria and iraq will be back on monday with professor knowing finkelstein. what are the holocaust industry and gaza an inquest into his mazda them until they keep in touch? why would i social media if it's so expensive in your country? and how do i channel going on the ground, 2 of your normal dot com to its new and old episodes of going underground see monday, the the

us statements, the way out of line is us new daily landing washington's remarks on the rest of it, k o position later on long before in the national election. also, it has the funds people are killed during an age delivery effort to garza, while the is where the prime minister sends his top security essentials to agents and casa for negotiations with how much does the desktop for the most power attacks winded to 144 western media focuses on the heavy hand of the rest of the stuff that we look back at the notorious torture of prisoners by the us itself.