just when the agent has made homosexuality ok, find some 6 acts are, are criminal for marriage is criminal. i think that more and more countries are going to come up with laws against it. right. do stay with somebody back with much more about 30 minutes time in the meantime. be sure to visit our website, r t dot com for the very latest breaking news and updates by the

welcome to was a part of the from a special military operation to a state of war. the kremlin definition of facilities on the russian ukrainian border shifted starkly this past week following a gory attack on concert goers outside moscow. is this which in the rush or rake, likely to be followed by change in military tactics. to discuss that, i'm now enjoying by the mitre training research professor of the higher school of economics in moscow and a member of russia's foreign and defense policy council. mr. training, it's always an exclusive pleasure, intellectual pleasure to talk to thank you very much for your time. thank you for having that sign up. now sit out this last 2 years. you've written a lot about sierra v use and regulatory function of fear in international relations. for example, how would me encourage diligence,

risk calculation and healthy, self restrain. but here we are faced with a different kind of fear. 3rd, to be precise, but it's also at some level of russia now it aims at certain behavioral uh outcomes. and i want to start by asking you, what do you think are the motives behind this attack? well, i think we are the process of understanding. uh, there's a dog. they think that a lot of uh, of evidence sofa suggests that the attack was a, uh, the, uh, re keying. uh, that's a psychological havoc in russia. essentially sending the message to the russian people that the best appointment may have want the election. and yeah, he can not fully guarantee security to russian citizens even in the capital of the

country. i think that is uh, one of the most important uh, motives. whoever was beside it, like i think that was important. another thing uh, is that the attack was perpetrated by the people coming from trump digit to stand. and those who are playing their tech. oh, probably most probably a wanted to um, russian relations in domestic relations within russian. you would remember a few months back. uh there was an attempt to stoke the extensions there. now doug is starting. oh, by the arrival of uh, the number of uh, uh joyce. people uh, from uh, from uh, israel and that was uh,

clearly an attempt to destabilize the northern caucasus as yourself. no. and as, as you have just expressed, the rush is no stranger to either service attacks or malevolent efforts to see, to saw the dis court within the russia. having said that, i do want to ask you about the conduct on the initial reaction to this attack. because, you know, there are certain things that are truly chilling here and on just the number of, of victims. we have a handful of heavily armed man walking into a park concert hall team dar arsenals without chanting, any ideological or religious slogans. getting into the car. and driving off along one of the busiest roads in the capital, i wonder if that in and of itself is meant or was meant to convey something. and if soul was into home. well, again, i think we're in the,

in the process of understanding what actually happened, why it happened, who was responsible, who was beside the, the, the attack. i think we, we know a lot right now. but the, the investigation continues. i just think that was a surprise. me personally is the, uh, is, is the, the immediate reaction from the united states to the shut up this was the attack attributed to the expedient as of the islamic stroke. i don't like find the on you are still not, i'm the, i'm hard to explain except you look you the point of finger. the tribute has to be directly as, as many as because as many people did that i think that there's more evidence that

this was something um the, this, this was a potentially a flaw slide operation. i definitely want to get to this question of a tradition certainty on both sides because i think it is pretty unusual to have an attack. when you know, at the time when it's committed, both sides are pretty confident about who has not committed it or who may have been behind. but before we go there, it's a very sensitive question and i'm myself, a russian citizen. i live not far away from that small, but i think it's an important question to ask to understand the dynamics because in the united states, as far as understand has warrant that citizens not to go to any mass events and specifically avoid large gatherings and including concerts on the eve of this attack there, there was also some reports about them handing over some vague information about

something possibly happening. any of the russian authorities did not change any levels of security in the capital. and this event was allowed to take place. perhaps because the russians that, sorry, the russian, the 3rd just wanted to convey this message of peace and stability within the country. and my question to you is pretty bland. do you think the, the russian security services and law enforcement services also have to, you know, consider the way they operate, given that the countries and did it in a state of war. and yet we are still at least in big cities, are trying to lead as normal of a life as possible. well, it seems that the 1st of all we don't know ever is leaking about the uh about the warning that the and i states, uh, made, uh, we don't, i mean, we can guess, but uh, i don't think it was much but the, the shortly i don't know what the actual reaction of the russian authority is,

was to that, to that message. i know that publicly russian officials refer to those uh, us embassy statements as a, as a way to uh, let's say it's about 11 late on the invite a bunch of pre election russia. i think that their way. uh, this one is good deducted. uh, is uh, meant to convey to a message is up to save time to very contradictory messages. one is the, this is an extra special matter. on the other hand, there's a very, very cautious attempt to allow people to continue living normal lives. it may be, i would explain that by uh, by the oh, sorry,

it is uh the conclusion that the public how do you spell the last uh many decades if you start would not want to switch to what time and what not switched. or what time do you usually uh that what does this the switch good uh reduce more problems. so that's the reality of peace may be false reality. but um, you know, moscow is, uh or, or, or maybe i'll do a others share this except for bill garage maybe quarter sca baby a, a clearly of the, the, the city is like the don. yes. good. the other sit is in the new territories of russia. they do not experience war firsthand dicks the, the saw things on television. they, they, they know that there's something going on. but uh, they are low, their own lives. the not the do not feel the he told the war from my appears

thought a point of view. it's understandable that the authorities would want to preserve, you know, some semblance of peas. but if you do not a sort of how your public a custom to the realities of the day, your enemies will do it for you. i mean, if people continue living as if they leave without the war, then don't you think that could be a certain point more dangerous because the shock off a terrorist attack like we've just experienced, would be in this case, a truly shocking. i mean, like, it's better to, i mean, the gap with reality here in this case would be larger. my opinion is that the, we are war. we have been at war for the past 2 plus years. and we need to mobilize in different ways. i'm not talking about the waves of the mobilization of reserve as this is up to the commander in chief up to the general

staff to decide. but society of society needs to understand that the peacetime is over for a period of time. maybe for a lot there at the time, and then we need to adapt more quickly and more effectively to the reality is of the day. and um, unfortunately this, the effort is not the, is not very much in the evidence. and i just see more people of the official side trying to create what you're called the semblance of the thing stay normal is there's, there's just something going on a television screens and the warranty is collecting. uh uh, firms that are helped uh, soldiers on the front line, but otherwise the so it, so normally sold nice. this is one thing. another thing is, is to know what kind of television content is appropriate during work. because the,

you know, people work really well. you know, we're, we're have a good time in moscow. why loves thousands and thousands of the core citizens were fighting and many of them died. and that is the, you know, the, that is a problem that needs to be a result. otherwise, i think you, you're going to get that out yourself. uh, otherwise we may have a pretty serious problems later on. someone has to tell the people that the little guys of his time is over. we have this a dire situation that will not go away by next is though, by next christmas. so, you know, in the 1st year but the future, we all need to carry out part of the burden. so this, this mentality needs to stop and from all the way from top to bottom, from top to bottom, that need to change. okay, well, what needs to change right now, mr. training is us taking a short break,

but we will be back in just a few moments state you and the, the, the

the welcome back to world support with the metric training research professor at the higher school of economics in moscow and the member of precious foreign and defense policy council. now, mr. training uh, as we were talking before, as we were discussing before, the breaks here and just confirm you need to be managed not only outside, but also inside the country. otherwise your enemies may on taking initiative upon themselves. but let's now talk about the international implications of what has happened in the article that he wrote immediately after the attack. you

positive that it may lead to serious changes in the nations public security and foreign policy. and i'm sure you will telling me that it's too early to speculate, but still, what are the possibilities here on the international or foreign policy from? this would be a very slow investigation. uh, no one is jumping to conclusions. um, uh before the investigation is over because everyone understands the mistakes involved and they've got closures that will be made or will have to be translated into some real action. i think we're closing him on the, on the final result of the investigation with bird junior. if that goes and the russian security establishment, mr. board because of the a f s b,

the federal security service. and uh, mr. popular sheriff of the secretary of, in, of the russian federation, security kind of sold a bump. they both essentially point a fingers, the crane, and the support that goes case also to the united states, the united kingdom. and if of this link to your create a 9 further on to the us and d, u. k is established, it's going to have a practical consequences for uh, for the war. i think that with regard to ukraine, we have also heard of that uh uh, of the leadership of the ukrainian of security services. maybe in fact, the legitimate targets for rush and strikes. we have

a good in the days after the, the terrorist attack and the russian missiles targeted buildings belonging to the, to the ukrainian security your services. right now they have been just in the last couple of days, they have been very major dash against your plenty of your trade in energy and infrastructure. so the war has been around the, the intensity of the war on the russian side has been ramped up. now, as you yourself pointed out within that article or if the ukrainian trail is confirmed, it wouldn't necessarily mean that an attack of this kind will would not have been possible without some approval of the head of state and present savanski in this case. and as you mentioned in your article, at this point, moscow is still abiding by its own sort of south taken

a restraint of not targeting the ukrainian president directly. but if the complicity of the ukrainian leadership is indeed confirmed, that's what not only make them legitimate targets, i suppose that would make them a necessary target. i mean, russian security services, including the commander in chief, by law, obligated to take measures to defend the rest and national security. and what i wanna ask you about is, what's the at this point, the larger geo political meaning or symbolism of this self imposed constraint of not targeting zelinski. and he's close a circle personally. and what would it mean to abandon this constraint versus worrying had been evolving since the start of the special military operation. and you would recall data to the, the original terms of the pre g that was drafted russian ukrainian creative that

was drafted by i didn't the show but, but never, never signed up. i think that if the connection between the terrace of the train you should occur to services is actually established in the restaurant establishment, then not only the world, the ukrainian leadership is seen as a cause of law, not under any circumstances, not a party to any future dogs and a future negotiations, but i think this will strengthen the view that quite a few people have been expressing openly got to russia can not, not tolerate the invasion. the russia cannot

afford living much to a terrorist state. so that state must go. this would be if that conclusion is rich. i'm told you about the conclusion that the about the connection declared and the connection done. this is the, the logical uh, photo uh to the conclusion. if you're dealing with a bunch of turbo sound to capture the state, then the doctors you must go, i'm not sure our audience understands the difference in military terms. what was the differentiation here? i mean, combining a terrorist state versus a conventional and the misstate. how would the tactics change in this case? well, you know, of an award. you can, well, you can decide to, to the point you can decide to uh, to come to terms with your phone. uh,

you have exhausted yourself the phone. it is, as does that yourself, your, uh, your comfortable terms, you know, you may or may not agree on a treaty, but at least some sort of an honest look at career. uh since 1953 that has been an honest us out there. no peace treaty but no more either. uh, so for, for, for some people in russia, many people outside of rusher, the korean scenario is, uh, is, is a, please. um, potentially possible scenario that's for some people, this is the most and their, you know, i think this, the disconnection tourists would kill the scenario. because you cannot, seriously, if you're serious about yourself, you know, serious about your no obligation. so as, as leaders of the stage of cetera,

then you can go to, you cannot tolerate living next door to the terrorist. you have to go smash, you'd have to smash the machine and make sure that and if you to resume will be, will be decent. and then an advocate advocate of introducing fear more squarely and directly into the us a russian or us western relationship and make it, it's aligned in both washington and london that they cannot wage your proxy war with russia via ukraine without no harm to themselves. and i think of this sort of argument to receive some rhetorical supports from the russian leadership, right? but i didn't see it materialize into any straight forward action. so you've got the link with uh, britain and the united states is established either directly or, or let's say,

through intelligence channels. what could possibly be the russian reaction? because he, i think your point is very well taken that, uh, you know, as russia is being self constrained in this war. the, the western definitions of what is allowed to keep moving and keep expanding. so how can the rush of possibly stop without creeping process without uh, initiating a larger perhaps nuclear armed conflict in the age of nuclear, the trance. uh, here is the, the best uh, maybe only gotta give you the, uh, uh, the doors will not, well not shale. the, the alternative to new way to, to us. there's no clear war. i'm very tragically. so i've got a fee of hunger. i'm just someone who is on the line of the importance

of something that lies up the heart of the taurus that see if you have no fear. if you lose fear, the initial prepare for they were absolutely. i mean, even in basic psychology here is a necessary reaction to it, so actually keeps us alive. this is the king brother ingredient to in survival. and if we want to survive as a, as a human race, that we must remember the, he'll be a bit of fear when we deal with the with one another. i think that, um, that is true. certainly if for a, if it's to establish not to be opinion officials beyond doubt, their training and officials were behind that doc then. um, you know, the headquarters of the ukrainian services of their train. yeah. and the top leadership and the need to become targets for that.

it is also um, um a logical that to yeah, we only know about this promise not that i get there. can the impression from we're only know about this on the fly lead. i must have food never told us that, but uh, so the flow is uh, from a former prime minister advantage of israel was right when he was saying what he was saying, but he understood correctly the showed the, this promise should the should be lifted. but mr. training again, would that be enough to a forest striking? no, no, no fear and not only in the car. so if you're bringing literature but also, you know, sobering up the western o eats will support that or what has been really, it's, i think there was a, an important statement from the east of the no fly,

an intelligence service in which you said that the, you know, in front of the sides of the sound, the soldiers up to your claim, those soldiers will be wiped down. they will be a priority targets for russia. and i think that the, that is a, that is a serious warning. and that's what it needs to be, and is it good to should not be ignored? now, of the other studies? i think that the, the, i don't know whether the rest of the cruise missile the folders in space by chance because of some miscalculation them, the in mapping of that flight. or maybe it was intentional. i think it's more likely that it was intentional. this is a message to uh, polish neighbors, that the, at some point point of the jumping target should polish territory that will be

engaged by, by russian missiles. we're talking about supply points, we're talking about communicate, communicate issues. we're talking about logistical routes leading to ukraine. the there levels of the escalation, we're talking about, the need for restaurants talking the need about the need for russia to assume escalation dominance, so not to be always on the receiving end because being always on the receiving end . but uh, i st. george safely take us through. uh, the absolutely terrified, well, when uh, you know, there will be a choice between other defeat of russia or other failure to achieve any risk, any meaningful results in your grade. a nuclear war. i don't want to, i don't want to ask all of us to get there, so sure that we don't get there. we need to uh to,

to be more and more proactive. uh and, and dominate the, this situation because it's so much more important to us than it is for, for the united states, the united kingdom, the rest of may so well that we need to, uh, to assume domination in the escalation there, in order to achieve an early and on the conflict on the conditions that would satisfy, i'll shoot you into the absolute and i think your earlier point is also well taken . it's better to be scared. then terrified or terrorized. mr. trying to we have to leave it there. but as always, it's been great, pleasure and honor for me to talk to you. thank you very much for that. thank you. it's a pleasure to talk to you again. it's on us. thank you. take care and thank you for watching hope to sara, again, are worlds apart. the,

[000:00:00;00] the water is part of the, the employee was posted. isn't the defense you of us and that in the word part is it something deeper, more complex might be present? let's stop without collision. let's go products.

the the, the russians special forces, detain, 3 suspects during a raid and the republic of dag a stand is official said the man, repairing it to commit terror attacks. the hundreds of people deeply moved by the tragedy of the march 22nd massacre and moscow gather outside the concert hall to honor those killed. there. the opinions are divided in russia as some call to reinstate the death penalty after the terror attack. to put the topic up for debate with our guests in here from local on the streets of moscow. i feel positive about this because it seems to me that