the system has, the language that is being used in the courts today is being either sort, but i'm okay published and i don't know the language was english in all the courts right now if you go to, we get up here and get judgments and we're not the if you go to the level, the court proceedings take this environment. so common man, who is the biggest bigots to know what is happening in this case and or not? is it right up next on our to international going underground option responses, interview with them. and people staying, who exposes the western propaganda surrounding the october 7th, come us for that by the

action or since you're welcome back to going underground, broadcasting all around the world from the u. a. it's april fools day and i'll give you the on the a full with his end a conference scheduled for today with us on basset to view and then to, to him is green field and don't wonder how she thought un security council resolution to 7 to a demanding a cause, a seatbar was nor to binding all countries voted for it except the usa that is funded. and i'm the genocide critical to the propaganda narrative to enable us u. k. u nation weapons transfer to israel had been raped, claims and beheaded babies. i'm, it's the october 7th resistance attacks by him. us joining me now again on going underground is the sound of holocaust survivors. professor norman finkelstein known all around the world, the scholarly work on the effects of zionism. his books include image in reality, all of the israel palestine complex, the whole of cost industry and gaza. an inquest into each month of them. he joins me now from new york. thank you so much. progressive. think of stuff going back on

the show. it's been too too long, arguably, i mean, as, as goals or phases that the fam, in your latest piece is about october the 7th. during analysis of october, the 7th by one of antonio gutierrez's officials, how important it has been the propaganda about october 7th, the the use of sexual violence and beheaded babies to allow the populations of the countries of germany, prominence breaking the united states in arming the genocide a l x of the what happened in october 7th, which remained murky and there are aspects which are fairly clear until there is an official investigation, which is the normal procedure, an international investigation which the one wants to carry out, but which is what refuses to allow it to carry out. we won't have any kind of

authority to this. uh, the details on what happened. oh, somethings to me are crystal clear. or beyond dispute about 400 conductors for killed about 800 or more civilians were killed. i don't see. there's any point in arguing that is uh from us and it's all organizations are committed now since atrocities, atrocities, and the update. i think it's silly to argue exactly how much of the, how many of those 800 and some odd of civilians killed. how many were killed by the milton suddenly they were killed by and cross, sire and so forth. we don't know the exact numbers that this guy that the, you know, they've got to be significant that were killed by how much. so i don't want to argue that i think it's stupid. i don't even think it's particularly important into the bank i had. oh, you mentioned earlier before we came on there, the debate i had with them the mars mars?

i said, i can't tell you the numbers because i'm a stick or for figures, that's what i do in life. i'm a forensic scholar. i look for numbers or look for evidence. and unless you give me a credible figure, i, i'm not going to give a number in the debate. my partner moreno, barney, you said a clear majority were killed by harm us. then the maurice wanted him to say over whelming majority, well, i don't know how you can discriminate between those 2 of uh, locations. clear majority versus overwhelming majority. if we don't know the numbers by the name of the fan is progressive it's, i'm not, you know, given the scale of getting multiples since october 7 it's, it's the use of what we don't know is it wherever october 7th, to enable the genocide that i'm more interested in you called at the rates than to see the familiar path you are, i'm going to get to the half moment. i certainly will establish what we know what

we don't know. um, so oh, i said that unless you give me forensic evidence digital evidence our time to give you a figure, i wouldn't give a figure for anything without root forensic or digital evidence because i'm a forensic star one to see the concrete evidence. and i never thought it was important, you know, in about see how the costs. so the official figure put off like, oh, institution, 6000000 jews work, you know, ro hilbert. the best scholar in the topic, he says, 5100000. does it make a difference? do we really say, oh, was only $5.00 millions of course that is completely irrelevant from the point of view of the yellow judgment. from the point of view of a historical or factual judgement numbers count from the judgement. i said massive atrocities are good and that's as far as i could go without forensic evidence. all

types of things that were how to immediately after october, 7th, for the claims of the headings and rates. those were the 2 talking points if you will, about october 7th, beyond beyond the, the mass occurred. so the be heading, so it seems israel has dropped because if you look at the oral proceedings for the i see jerry on the genocide case when they listed these readings and oral proceedings when they listed the atrocities occurred on october 7th. they did not include the headaches. i should just say your old squire in 5 years upon their island judgements of uh yea, over apparently uh, picked up by his rent benjamin netanyahu to defend israel at the well cool set on this program. people who i seem to be on rumble, they're not only was it skepticism, was as bad as denying the whole of course, but that he saw photographs of uh, headed headed babies. i think. yeah,

well that may be what he looks at after hours at home. and may have been from october 7th, so that's the side of the questions. and the rates now are the i was skeptical at the beginning about the rate the systematic rates claim. i won't go with my reason that you have more to do in my reason for me has more to do with if you'll forgive me have more to do with my understanding of the not just of muslim culture in general. they have a lot of the, our lives and friends, a lot of my students, i know them quite well. and for reasons which i don't want to go into now because it 1st know i found a chart. i was skeptical of the charge except this movie, an isolated incidents here in isolated center. and then the whole controversy as you, as you know, unfolded about this rate discharge. and the people who are very knowledgeable on

the topic they were going back and forth play with the new york times story was fraudulent under the case of but it was not just send you your cards is now it was the guardian as my friend, jimmy starr and minor pointed out to me yesterday, it wasn't the only the new york times which what with that systematic rates or reuse, also the british guardians. and right now the british car has to have low. they don't want to be reminded of what they did when the time spots do that story. and then turn the upper middle of packing paper and i read it. i'm always there. as i said, i'm a forensic scholar. i'm curious about governance and it was a very strange thing. first i called to say, because it's all what it was. she says, i'm not an investigator. this is not an investigative body, but there she says, i'm analyzing the evidence. i'm verifying the evidence. i'm reaching not just you

know, um uh, if you know, human rights supports human rights supports are supposed to be preliminary tool, full fledged investigation. and so the why would you always use is reasonable grounds to wait. that's the maximum. typically a human rights report will go we have reasonable grounds to believe this that and that, but they never make state anything more because they haven't carried out a full fledged legal investigation for miller. has she not only claims, reasonable grounds to believe she also claim clear and convincing evidence that so much fire spender. and so now i'm shaking my head. you say you're not even, you're not even an investigative body like human rights watch amnesty international

or commissions mandated by the un human rights council. you say you're not even dead, but you're not claiming that you have a higher standard of evidence. you claim you are clear and convincing evidence i mean to she has blurry is that actually your camera is going in and out of focus. but in all the decades you've been a forensically analyzing statements out of a u. n. officials have you ever seen anything like it in terms of where the top line at a press conference could just go out tool and use agency as, as there was raped? actually, there was one example. it was with the model, the murano. i asked even bobby lower incident. there was a big to do between turkey and israel because the vessels were the, remember about best for your listeners. that was the humanitarian con, voice. that was going to die. so in may 2010 to break the back. you have to

break the block, a humanitarian goods, and there are 3 o clock the vessel and then killed 9 and later a test person were killed, died from the attack, and a secretary general donkey moved. it was trying to figure out the way to record to read about conciliation between turkey as israel and the a point to this absolutely disgraceful commission called the palmer commission, had on it the columbia and war criminal. what are you, a big was on it, and they produced a completely ridiculous report. i am a lives in great detail and one of my books to point be when the secretary general up points a condition, a red light should go off your head. this is not at all, is this the guy should?

this is about politics as gutierrez up point to this committee is not even a commission. i don't know what it is as a saw to united states and israel to show these being ballots. because you will notice gutierrez suspect, it's a pretty strong statement after october 7th. i was very surprised. i thought ok, this guy is going to be gone by christmas. it's the dry when you mean gone, you know mean like damage. sho. oh oh oh no. not that boy. oh boy, he was being pretty tall and i guess because i didn't see how he would less. but now i see how we less you use the un surgery general. you suspect is a subject of a quick bro quote, to allow him to continue talking about the genocide and caring anything about this i, i would say that it was a political move by the secretary general in order to show he was valid.

but it was a very strange political move and you know, why here is the power ducks. paradox is the, the camilla packed in report ended up being the most compelling evidence that there was widespread rate and sexual violence on october 7th. now you might be wondering how can that be all the media were saying, here's the post. we have to prove, we have a smoking going to premier of of 1000 report. but what does the print bill of passing the board show this enough carefully? number one, they were supplied overwhelmingly with the evidence. some deals well the government . so you conclude not just in for you can clue is one they, it's best case to the correct. what was their, israel's best case?

they look at not less than $5000.00 photographs and they looked at 50 full hours of digital footage. ok. 54 hours is not a little. that would be if you max, they could have located for 8 hours a day. that's our time. see how beyond that, that's 6 full days that we're looking at these digital footage. they told us or has told us before they came from where terms dash terms cctv traffic monitors. which is to say they looked at the footage taken from every conceivable angle. okay. hang on, i'm going to provide if i goes time, we'll just go to

a break. now more from one of the world's great, his middle east goal is up to this break, the hello and welcome to the cost of full force. here we discussed some real in the

welcome back to going undergoing, i'm still here with professor you open finkelstein or through the whole across industry and got as an inquest into each month of the preventative finkelstein before i interrupted you were talking about this. uh, well, effectively rape fantasy of a un official in the butch empty proving that the whole of a to a probably going to meet you got it wrong about what happened on the same day. they examine fluid from every conceivable and go by every cigarette consumable technological device. and you have to remember that the area was a but to god. so which means it must have been among the most probably surveil areas and go over this rule. and here's the, here's the upshot, the character very short in the report, the claim for one single image or frame of sexual violence,

no one. and this is israel's best case number to has is yet sunk in because there was a complete shock to me when i was ready to get it. because this is supposed to be the smoking gun clothing such a violent number to they said they couldn't afford a single scrap of what they call medical legal evidence, meaning forensic evidence on sexual violence, not a single strep. and then number 3, they said none of the victims would step for. now the usual argument is because most of them are killed, the victims, that's the how the argument goes. that's not what this happened. the board said, go look at it and then say,

because there was an absence of direct victims. they gave the claim, they gave 3 kinds of claim. number one, they said the people in that area have now been to why can be dispersed throughout israel? number 2, they claim that they, these people have been trust you when commission and number of somebody, they said they were to traumatize. well, that's just not credible. how important, how important is it for uh, this oriental ism, this arguable racism against palestinians to justify genocide in the continuing billions of dollars of weapons being sent to murder more palestinian. uh well, what does it, 13000 a children. go into the homicide link ministry. $30000.00, mostly women and children killed. what, why,

why have you written this piece about the rate fantasies of upper middle above them and why every other day you'll hear on mainstream the propaganda, the media in nature of countries, sexual violence has the excuse. so i haven't looked at it myself, but other people have cited is us of this repair that was done by frank long since are very influential. analyzer of public opinion in the us be in the us. and what the study showed was, were pertaining to the events of october 7. when the he, when there was asked to list which kinds of evidence of most influenced you in your support of israel. they said number one was right. so it was from the point of view of public relations and

galvanizing public support. it was known by them the proper gators of this claim that it was we can use the words, it was the most potent weapon in their practice. again the arsenal to propagate this claim. so that's to me, it's 5 star a reason why every time israel faces and other p r crisis, the new york times has in your headline about the accusations of race and sexual violence on october 7th. well, let's move on then to this. suppose it, the more maybe is propaganda. mainstream media. i've got a paper here. netanyahu faces crisis and us relations of to picking public fights

with bible. you went to school. i understand with chuck schumer, the highest ranking. that was, he was, he was 3 years ahead of me and my high school. oh, what did you make of either he's previously said in 2010 that the people of god and most collectively be strangled. so you wouldn't take as much difference between chuck schumer and that you know, when it comes to supporting genocide. and yet, if you were to read the new york times or any of these cnn and bbc and sky news, you'd think there's this big split between blinking is being here in the middle east. is this the manufactured given to the arms continue to be sent to to net and yahoo or or are they preparing something different had once they've killed all the palace palestinians of gaza? well, let's be clear, said said majority leader, chuck schumer likes to be senate majority leader

election is coming up as president by the once the wing, the election and the whole democratic party wants to in the election and they have 2 problems. i should say. they had their court between 2 conflicting forces. on the one hand, there is a jewish billy in their class and by the one storm know that you need their money. you know, our country where you calculate the success of the campaign is how much money and cost campaign contributions comes in each week. they keep very close tracking that number as he needs the money in general, i won't say the re case is general. there's been good social scientific research on it. there's a direct correlation between which side gets the most money and campaign contributions

and who wins the election. that's the way our system works. so he needs that money and that was the george billionaire class has since october 7th. it's become utterly and totally roofless in its support of israel. there is no power of the american history. i'm not just talking about modern american history of outside individuals. happily. probably not one but 2 precedents of id the universities a copy of the toppled claudine gate and then they toppled mcgill in university of pennsylvania. they are, was less now gary and mcgill were copied because they were insufficiently repressed and suppresses of this

on their campuses. and why didn't those one false me and they will just give their money to trump. we'll just switch. so he has to keep sending the world. so what if they then ask him to go like a israel? i tried to get the united states and its allies to go to war in iraq of the 911. i mean, does that mean they could persuade them for an attack on their run? because it to the threat. i know i have to defend the i've studied that quite closely. that was a decision made by rumsfeld, cheney that was not in this raley, this isn't actually, it is really, is one of the last back them to go after a random, not it wrapped. so i don't think they play that would they could they do at this time? well, however, there is a critical point here. what you're saying, senator sure. robert, none of that is were the only 2 democratic party main senators who tells

they are ready to deal out of loyalty to israel. and now it's schumer that say schumer who oppose be around the view. and the same schumer who was incorrectly quoted in 2006, 10, said we should economically strain go guy. so that's what he said. it's the same schumer who gave that speech. and that's why i've said there are 2 forces. the court between the judge really there are class and the democratic party base. and there's a lot of turbulence not to mention outrage in the democratic party base at the support of the, by the administration for the fact of support of dividing ministration for israel. then they believe me talk to supports and they believe israel and so sure it was

a very interesting speech. was very interesting. first of all, named for ops because the piece one come us to the power of sidney, the $33.00. yes and yahoo! and for the for right, israel, the balance. he balanced the responsibility. very unusual, especially he's the guy who pose the around you use like way out in right field dollars. and then the most interesting part of the speech was he didn't say supporting one state was at the semitic, as he actually said, did you read the speech? he said, i understand the idealism of young people what one state and don't see what's wrong with one state. he then try proceed to try to

rationally refute the demand for one state. but he did not dismiss it out of hand. okay. i'm sorry for the rest of it, we're just running out of time. but as you say, that's the 1st time i think one state is back on the agenda in the last 2 minutes. blink and of course has been in this region talking about the some sort appear uh it was previously mooted by and is rarely transport secretary could the u. s. military be involved in this region off the coast of garza, or with a peer peer. so that's how this whole thing is searching, disgraceful public, right? you know, every precedent, right, you know, running for office of course are going to gain gay g p r. but to encourage you to you are when children are starving to death in the most literal sense, every body with an ounce ounce of knowledge and its value. there

is no need for a p are good hundreds of trucks outside garza which are waiting to enter. the problem is not material has to be the problem is not even load, just fix the problem is exactly as the your foreign policy chief said, well, as well as using starvation as what been let's not treat the new york finds that this is a no cool question of how to get the people of excuse me, the food and medicine to the people in gaza. this is not the cold question. this is a political question. there is a see,

impose on garza coast star population to the west, palm us. so renters drugs the problem, professor norman vehicles 9. thank you. and that's it for the show of continued condolences it as bereaved by u. k. u. s. u. i'm bombing in palestine, lebanon. yeah, i'm in syria and iraq. we'll be back with a brand new episode on saturday until then keep in touch my role as social media. it's an old sense of your country and have to have channel going underground tv on normal dot com to enter new and old episodes of going underground successive the the

moscow demands the arrest and extradition of ukrainians at length to terror attacks in russia. a group of greeks politicians say the crocus massacre also clearly there is the mark of kia and its masters in washington. easy as they are. they rush to equip themselves 1st and then you cream. i think that no one can believe what the usaa saying about itself and ukraine regarding the terrorist attack. the is really prime minister. benjamin netanyahu refuses to hold a snap election, which of thousands of protesters are demanding as they rally outside his residence and the countries parliament plus the.