a large on odd say the hello and welcome to cross stock where all things are considered on peter level. sometimes words do matter. nato secretary general stilton berg says ukraine may have to compromise with russia what that compromise might be is left on answer. nonetheless, it is an acknowledgment nato's proxy war and russia. it is ending in failure, the cross sucking ukraine. i'm joined by my guess, pasco, look house in kyoto. he's an associate professor at

t o university. in montreal. we have matthew aaron. he is a senior fellow at the american university of moscow and director of the rising tide foundation of canada. and here in moscow we have here a menu well to a month to use electorate. leon university, our gentleman prospect rolls in effect. that means he can jump any time you want, and i always appreciated pasco, let me go to you and kill unto cuz you are staying up late. i usually say you got up early, you're staying up late to do this program. you know, it's spelt and burke is a very interesting creature to observe. he's obviously just a mouth piece for the alliance, probably on speed dial to washington. but he does come out with these things that do. we should pay attention to that there that ukraine is going to have to make some compromises. this is a, is, this is a way, an off ramp for nato as it approaches it's 75th anniversary, with not much to be proud of pascal as well. i would hope that natal fine and he understands that an offer on these needed now that it has seemed basically

all of its equipment destroyed by russia in ukraine on the ukrainians. little by little losing the ability to fight the support because they're running out of man, right? with out external intervention in the form of boots on the ground, which actually differentiate the british are not working on. but without that, there is just no realistic scenario anymore. even to drag out the war, i mean, in europe the all the talk is that because as told me, but even bodies of law, right. it's not a stone me. russia is now is no really and the advantage and can push on. so it seems to me that realism seeps through and nato understands that an offer on these needed. and this is the 1st kind of signs may be that they are willing to consider it. well matthew, the they, they, they, the argument that we are hearing now is that, and it's been for, i guess now for the last 6 months, more aid is necessary to give the ukrainians

a better advantage at the negotiating table. but matthew, if you think about it, the more money is sent ukraine and material, the less territory they control is what you can get smaller and smaller with more and more money being side cafe. see this is their causality issue here. matthew, it's difficult to say what they can or cannot see. i have to admit, when we're dealing with these types of tech and crowds, we're so removed from a battlefield or any plane of reality and are so used to being conditioned by game theory, models, and think tanks without any attachment to reality. so when they come up with an assessment it's oh, is a little strange. try to get into their shoes by curious. we but i think you're, you're correct. there has been embarrassing over 2 years, lack of any type of progress and, and just the reverse has happened. the more money is pouring into the, the, the, the culture in the less results has tended to be the outcome and even the i m f. a said has had to make demonstrations that the data cannot be fledged out that much

or any more. it's very difficult as much the guy mess normally. fudge of data and has demonstrated that, unlike the forecast that russia would be destroyed by this time much earlier on, they were supposed to be economically destroyed. the i'm asking you for recent reports has had to admit that they are now the, the bypass of germany as far as becoming the, the world's 5th largest economy, the most powerful economy in all of europe. they've not, they've only benefited in many ways by virtue of what has been done, section wise and everything else in the war is just one aspect of the failure of planning bodies. technocrats. so yeah, it's a while. well, it's difficult. i do think that there is like the previous speaker said some bending to reality currently. well, parent manuel here in moscow. what, what, what's, what's, what's really quite curious is that, you know, we have someone like cells and birds saying that ukraine may have to compromise. they all people like felton berg, the rest of them. they always forget the other party in the complex russia. maybe

russia doesn't want to compromise, said they considered that purity manual. of course not. oh, they know they should concede over, but she's real narrow teeth. and the narrow t for, for starting to think about it compromising is because they know v, i go not lose more and more we've time. russia is getting mold round, and do they try to hide v strategic disaster? and this is the time where they from bill potent of you need to us to concede or to, to compromise, to, to stop for a russians to advance and to try to, to save of the rest of the ukraine. but actually, are russia is not the same interest of russia wants to achieve is for object teeth, which is to update a new chart is ation of ukraine. but also, but you, your queen regime is not the threat anymore to russia. so each much mo, under of the more we wait,

the move of the result of compromise. we'd be at the higher cost for ukraine on the west. well, you know, do the passcode one of the, the, the difficult things in, in trying to understand this complex. if you look at both sides, neither the 2 sides are speaking and very different languages and then they have different ways of understanding it and what, how it came about. what i'm getting on here is that the russians always talk about their security, the europeans, and the americans talk about their so called values. that's why we're not getting anywhere. pascal. yeah, russian has made it pretty clear what these war is about for them on the fact that on social media ending programs like these, these message has been clearly understood. it has been discussed for 2 years. the fact that that also remind wells that we know that this is about neutralizing ukraine as a threats and, and making sure that russia will be safe. it's

a very different approach and this must be heard. i mean, but public media in europe into us. this is a completely different thing. it's propaganda. the propaganda is on a different level and it is still on a different level but, but we now see that the people in power actually do understand that what, what they publicly say and what, how they actually interpret russia are not necessarily the same. so this is the best chance that we have that actually, you know, the people who are responsible for about the diplomats and also the military people will start talking things into the politicians in, in, in, in europe telling them, look at some point we need to actually discuss with the russians what they want because they are winning or difficult. they want all the winning ukraine is something you know, these to get much worse. we have to buy really the house calls the, you know,

right. in december of 2021 before the start of the conflict in the february after the russians told the world, telegraph the whole world what they wanted. that's exactly what they want today. nothing has really changed. they want security, okay. they don't want, they want a neutral ukraine, and they don't want a nato moving eastward, no to distance. still the same things. let me move over to uh, to matthew here. the, uh, the undertaker of the west pony blinking. um we sent a 2 not uh, 2 new cycles ago was standing next to the training for ministers. i ukraine will be part of nathan, we haven't gotten much progress here. have we, matthew? you know? yeah. all, all you, all that needs to happen is russian needs to be defeated and then you praise is going to become part of nato. that's. that's easy because obviously the 2nd then you create as part of nato. that's world war 3 because there's a lot of, obviously, a powerful interest itching to invoke the article 5 collective security packed. so that's not something that, that will happen directly unless you really do want an all out of thermo nuclear

war, which i don't think that there is that in seen. so i don't think that there's a lot behind those words. yeah, the and matthew, you're, i'm a, i'm sorry, the rapids you're absolutely right, but the in lieu of saying something else, they don't have in lieu of something else or just say, and of course, you know that there is no time table. there no condition you just will be you, you will eventually will be. i mean if i with you crazy and so i said, i would say we need to negotiate the end of this thing here because you can't trust these western partners. i'm sorry, matthew, keep going. yeah, no, absolutely. but then you, you have like, uh, what's the name of alexandra of leo, the public, who is the, the, the land force commander saying that all citizens must be prepared to buy and thus implicitly die under throwing up people. paraplegics, people who are mentally described a you got a lot of a lot of people just being thrown as cannon fodder right now, and they're doubling down and you clean on. the fact that they're the gospel from 2

years ago was somehow still flexible. and it's certainly not the reality is completely completely showing a different picture and they're not able to conform to it. so i don't know with, with blinking why he chose to say that it's just that they're incapable of shifting away property that from their narrative. that's right. there's only one gear, these people have only one year up here in menu. well, what, what is interesting with, with the french proposal, i'm not really sure it wouldn't be crowned really means. a french soldier is nato soldiers. is that a blog? does abreast on a i think in narrative mistake as well because or oc, 20, we have to understand the context for europe and elections in the european parliament and or the or position pots you'd, i could look in. paul t is file here, read ahead of the box you of a menu item. i cool. and the popular menu item i can choose full feel not teeth to,

to, to push the fox is about to be on the side of you play the freedom of demo crusty against a b to russia. and the to accuse the loop in pots you to be a promoter of the russian, the objectives, son, and to be a, put you to agents resist. i'll tell you ridiculous and envy you, come, pay your come notice of french paper doesn't suck this narrative very. they, they want to vote small move for nation are from so reset, thoughts are not, you've said all on the same time or so. and when you get a mock hole, once you to make friends relieved, or of you uh, entered by supporting your queen and gets rush out to, to take advantage of in an opportunistic way of the situation. and do it to be able to lead or in competition with germany because french was always in competition. germany to lead the european project. an area could notice about nobody in you want

. busy this to be told anything and to be led by you are a money order my co on especially to put troops on the ground. it gives russia which one to go to, to with front tire war and continue. but many experts on many tell even know it's not possible, it would be a disaster. so it does to be a mistake in terms of narrative and also jump words. all right, hold on to that thought the wrong of it. we have to go to a hard break gentleman, and after that hard break, we're going to continue. continue our discussion on ukraine, stay with us. the, the, the russian states never is as tight as i'm sort of the most sense community. most all sense. i'm at the,

in the 65 and this been casual. 95 has to be the one else calls question about this . even though we will then in the european union, the kremlin machine, the state on the russians today and split the ortiz full back, keeping our video agency, roughly all the band on youtube, the student services for the question, did you say a request for check? the is a wise, it's can be cited by lawrence, please can be spanish wide for the importance of we can never be of a station. so that transparency is an extraordinary drawn mistake. patrice

then just succeeded in finding the documents that existed in making them available to the public domain. what could be more moving back by publishing information and sharing information with the public. he was exercising the right to free speech. he did so in the public interest, watched us or mom realized tends to me and, and honestly of late, continuously. i know why advice may assume that no one who is the guy that illegal all wisely voltage, just certain so beyond box weighing a 175 used to do it. you'll get sent. it's all we going to let that stay in the local match across stock. were all things are considered. i'm curious about your

mind you were discussing. you create the pay, let's go back to pasco and, and kill to i think one thing. and if we look over the last 2 years of a few things, i think um, we can all agree on this, isn't it? leach warm up here. and menu, always telling us about how friends people feel about it. this isn't a lead ward. they, they expected rush, it would collapse instantly. you know, the sanctions we did with the rubel would become rubble and all of these type of thing. but the only thing they seem to have in common right now is that they don't know how to win because they've lost. so their alternative is just to keep it going . that's what they're doing, just keep it going. pasco, i mean, you're, you're set that there is no timeline, but there actually isn't, that's november of this year, because that's the big election in the united states. and it is to me relatively

clear that full, that the democrats and to you as a trying to do is to keep it going until beyond the election when either joe biden is saved into saddle for another 4 years. and you can like, you know, kinetic paper out. um, whatever it is, or donald trump wins and you can pin it on him. so really like for the, for the americans at this point is to have to have it going for another house a year without ukraine collapsing for reputational purposes for the europeans. it's a completely different games. europeans, as, as he said, they, they, they hung themselves in their own words. and that's why we see my call trying to one up the game and even maybe go further then what, what nature would be would be willing to, to do one on their own. but this is such a risky gamble like no, that would be because it could buy this in world war 3. but also if it backfires, you know, uses credibility in even in europe. so your opinions at the bottom and go from a bad place to the worst, play it out of their own miscalculations. so, well put,

matthew, you know, the, the, the, the adage and politics never let a crisis go to waste. i think that's exactly what your opinion leaders are thinking that would be steep, but brussels is that this is a catastrophe. so let's take advantage of it. let's, let's pursue greater federal ization. let's allow brussels to start directly taxing the engine, individual citizens of the you not nation states, but brussels gets the do it. i mean, this is one of the reasons why i think there's a big competition in europe who is going to be harder on the russians. because this is an opportunity to transform europe in a way that voters will not have no say in whatsoever. matthew, will the, the, the destruction of any type of legitimate democracy in europe has been a, a long time coming in has been part partly the manifestation of the sorts of ideas we had originally seen where the century going merge out of the mind of people. i couldn't hold the colored z with his a pen, europa of fascist movement that had a variety of, of hyper fascist, like you almost shocked me. circles around,

but benito, mussolini, many, many of the most hard core you genesis with global as we're all circulating around, couldn't whole declared these idea of creating a united states of europe. which ended up either adopting the outline that, that he himself, designed with beethoven's 9th symphony b hoping would not be happy with that as the anthem. and ever since world war 2 ended, there has been an immediate effort to try to re purpose and, and put back into play with churchill was a big follower of, you know, we'll amerys kids, julian, and many others were all a advocates, including the head of the british, a fascist party himself, oswald mosley, would it be promoter of this thing? and this became increasingly a federal realized structure that would have more power as far as an unelected bureaucracy above those elected components of the nation. and elizabeth trudy was just a more recent example of this thing. advancing forward in opposition to the actual

democratic will of the people of europe who didn't want this. they would be voted, knowing it didn't, it was still forced down the throats of the irish and others. and so i think you're right in this crisis is being used to advance a more gifted tauriel up or down shift of, of this whole new world order. again, but yeah, but if you don't fall in line like got hungry or slovakia you will pay the consequences as for you are ursula bundle and so we have the tools. okay, very famously. yeah. it's purely menu. well, i mean what, what is the, what does your get out of, of this supporting this war? i mean, i, i see no upside whatsoever. you see european a leads a band doing their own self interest, their sovereign interest of the actually we have to, to see from the point of view of for very the you are p and i, you want you to a, always to push for a federal integrate in europe before the crisis in ukraine,

the europe and projects was already in a very bad situation because various investors on this report from the people are economically doesn't work anymore. but your role is a disaster and the european union as no voice in the world, or will the claim to be jump with the car, actually, or between the us, russia, china in your they all week or on the week or. and this crises in ukraine, they've been monday to date it. they'd be no actually was one west pro vote to buy your by you a nate to a document of the fuse or for washington to negotiated. we brush a new or pre on secure which we to wrench meant as the e u. member states they photo the yours are 20 the, the government's wide fable, brittany wood and the integration. like you're the french of adjustments. they use it, no fault. you're new to a fault, you need this way to save the european project, to, to a fight, a new enemy,

a russia to push for more european integration or vote. people are less, less in favor of you. so actually this, you, this is a sign of vast saudi zation over you to natal under the same time. it's because in term that e, v, r a weaker on mo, mo, divided between member states. that's a reality tv to try to hide. you rush up, the kids escape, go to of a youth and you and your problems. yes. and, and the parent manuel. it also gives them reasons to put a push censorship in the platform. mean people, all the, all the name of national security, of course here, you know, pest go one of the things that if we have the 75th anniversary of the official 70 if anniversary, party of nato in washington in july. and then, you know, the nato is good at p r. i mean, that's mostly what they do,

but they're facing as catastrophic strategic defeat. and that's something they can not contemplate, pasco, i warn you though, you know, a, this is a war that made to didn't win, which is different from the defeats. i would really not want to see an actual real fight between nato troops and russia, which will be weight uglier than what be seen so far. so guess, nato will, it gets, moves, and nato and the nato countries will try to improve their entire industrial chain. because they didn't know the news strategically, the last, the, the, the production game of, of, of a major war in, in europe. and they will try to improve that over time. but they didn't, they just didn't we, ukraine. i would not want to see them challenge to the point where they would actually go into the field and shifting to a different gear, which would be world war 3. well, i mean, i guess there's one or 2 ways even though there's a path a is a, is,

is pascal side, you know, okay, nick, you won't, you didn't when you crane. okay, but that's not the lesson learned. tier one downside of this is that now nato and certainly has an enemy, remember all before this, you know, rushes an adversary. we haven't, we're not threatening russia. this is not about nato expansion. the other nonsense is, but now they can say, well, we got a real adversary here, which really interesting. matthew is the only 37 percent of the members of nato. actually spend 2 percent of their g, d, p on defense. so, i mean, if russia is such a huge threat to the european con in why on are the all the countries are spending 110 percent? go ahead, matthew. know that that's a fund data point that i was just reading how the us investors, the data was chest izing the the other non paying um members as, as you're correct, if this really was a threats, if there were this was a serious, a high priority. you would imagine that

a much more than the 2 percent minimum would dispense, we see rushes spend well over 6 percent of their gdp on dealing with what they value as a very high priority to deal denazi's me encroaching nieto, insert them into their country. that's what you do when you're, when you have a real threat, you spend the appropriate money. and as it turns out, they've wise, we'd be able to solidify a vast amount of positive relationships with your res road that is provided to a greater pope for real integration of your asia and stabilization, based on progress of real durable friendships and trust than anything we've ever seen before, so that's good, but no, you're right. there's just no actual follow through. so you can see that people are just being strong arms by a sort of force that, that must not be spoken about in polite society in public, to say certain words. but there's not an ability to actually act in walk the walk, which is just part of this whole, you know, detached technocratic scripts which, which wants to impose their opinions reality onto the world without actually

recognizing that the world isn't that way. yeah, and they're just to use the plain god for too long. that's why we have this program . we, you know, we're not, we're not polite society. okay. right here. very well. one of the, the, the greatest um hopes of the european union is 2 things. peace and prosperity. they're neither are in place right now. the meeting europe is, is the single, the biggest loser outside of ukraine, of course, and this entire ridiculous game. but go ahead. yes, actually the program is your pen union is not a or to them was project from a washington actually your view, your pin project. is it the sup uh, strategy of for washington to control the re, milan to, to, to against russia. because the washington does instructed g or for controlling your ratio. we for your band room runs on the one side on a in the pacific on the other side. and you have an union with these crises more on

move. that's how used by a natal. i didn't miss less security instead of for any sharp project of your pin, which it was piece. and they were used as a weapon against russia. and or this is why the, the, the project with a good, we need more and more in a crisis on that for less on the support of, of people are on the 20, the european union or so is not defending europe as such as your pennsylvania zation or your pin balance of power, which will include, of course, rush because of rush i spots of european civilization and is unable. and you raise your to, to, to europe and are actually european union became a little more a tour to defend you. a trunk space under i would say the western dominance of awards, which is not working anymore in front of and the gentle merchant put on words. so

we are losing, in terms of a systemic or a system of international relations. sends us why we are still afraid of his company. well, i think we could just say, thankfully, it's the end of the rule space order. all right, gentlemen, that's all the time we have a one. it's like my guess entails to montreal and here in moscow. and of course, i want to thank our viewers for watching us here at our d. c. a next time. remember, cross knuckles, the take a fresh look around his life. kaleidoscopic isn't just a shifted reality distortion. by power to division with no real opinions. fixtures designed to simplify will confuse really one say better wills,

and is it just as a chosen few. fractured images presented as 1st? can you see through their illusion going underground, can the the

you for your courage and leadership and tenacity in journalism and publish the dixon victory logic. and that just this depends on it. the, the wiki links using non state

hostile intelligence service. i think the man, it's a hot couch, hard tech turner's to trainer a trans unless he has to answer for what he has done. assange price it up to a 175 years in prison for publishing classified documents, exposing us for crime center rock and us grandstand. she has been detained since the 7th of december 2010, and one form or another. and we are now here off the phone from the prison. the

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