a, this is the i'm action or times the welcome back to going undergrad, broke us to go around the world from the u. a in a week of the 5th anniversary of the beginning of britain's torture and incarceration of june. and it sounds, we don't even need wiki, likes to tell us that the us has lost its proxy war on russia through ukraine, even us deputy secretary of state god campbell is acknowledged most because military success with nothing to stop the war of attrition. ukraine is down to using home made drones to attack russia, and according to moscow, a key of hatched plan with the hunter binding link company to carry out launch is most good conceptual atrocity. even the amazon washington post revolt, ukrainian presidency. lensky was abolished. collections is quickly running out of

options. the international community regularly trading with russia is meanwhile, a gast, of nature nation military support for genocide in gaza. in this region, former nato and list kind of jack bo was in ukraine after the us back crew that kicked off the war in europe. in 2014, he left the piece policy and dr. and division of the u. s. department of peacekeeping operations and is just published, operational acts of flowed the defeat of the vanquished and the russian. a lot of war, how the west that ukraine to defeat. he's going to be from the home of nato headquarters, brussels in belgium, con, no, thank you. so much for coming on as i was saying, the international community. uh, more concerned with how they have a the nathan economic sanctions when it comes to ukraine. if they going to think about ukraine, because clearly genocide and gaza is the big story internationally. but just take us back to what you saw off to the us back, who in cabin 2014 has a name to a worker, someone who's on the nature of payroll. so that's

a special it'd be a match or even 5, because as you know, i'm a swiss cologne, switzerland doesn't belong to nato. and i was in nato in the framework of the partnership for peace. but i had a position as head of a small unit dedicated students, struggle against a pray for ration of support, arms, and in to in 2014. as natal suspect to that, the don't bus rebel is received. what happens from the russia, from russia? i was in charge of money training and get that conflict. and in fact i had uh, 2 different i, i went to, to ukraine under different hats. the 1st one was under the hat of this. uh, uh, this target against pretty for ration of, of someone on site. it just said, i gotta have to was that because i'm also a, you an expert on the role and every form of security and institutions.

and what happened in the, the 20142015 is that the ukraine, an army which was in charge of the repression of the got the rebellion, not just in the don't bus, but in the whole size of, of you can, we have forgotten that after they abolition of the law under language in the ukraine, the whole south of ukraine, in fact, a started big protest from what they saw to up to, to don units a lot. but the costs are given. and therefore, they, the ukrainian army was involved. but the problem is that the ukraine army was composed both by ukrainian speakers and russian speakers and very soon, the ukraine, the russian speakers, ukraine. now, i mean, just the effect of the rebels. and that's, that's, that explains, in fact why the red bows got so low, so much a weapons and so fast because complete regiments and battalions from the ukraine

unami just the effected pseudo rabbits. and based on that, the ukrainian government, us naples to assist in a kind of a restructuring of the armed forces and improve the goal. so or the mattress of it turned out displaying and all that. and i was involved in that, and therefore i had the opportunity to watch the, the conflict from within the ukraine at that stage. and what, what the, what a dot point, what, what surprised me was the difference. we good notice between what i could see in the field and what the western media are reported. in fact, we have a, we had a totally different picture as the what, what was happening in, in ukraine, by the way, oh, the protests that happened off the 23rd of february 2014. nobody talked about this

in the west and, and in factories directed strongly, the whole security within ukraine and the whole relationship between ukraine and the, the, the, i mean that you're creating the funding key f and the difference of loss of, of, of, of ukraine. and you will have a dining crypto knox ism, uh, in terms of uh, anti russian culture that was occurring even back then of course, we saw a much more under the landscape. as you know, the go in 2014 was in fact engineered by a very small, full amount of individuals. that's where is each of those. in fact, those extreme right, we could little tradition of these groups which some have named new or not sweet. some well known as the older or the recipient we're trying to, she noticed, but in any case, this was a very small group. the, the majority of the, especially government forces you had a lot of people were just conscripts in fact and there was

a conscription army at the time. and a lot of individuals, in fact, were not so keen in supporting the government, because this was the, the new government that emerged from the map. the euro may done. and you, as it became known that this new govern trust has, was not elected. and, and all the, this the, the russian part or direct. yes, the russian part of ukraine didn't accept the, the changes that we are led to by the deed. so this new got elected the government . and in fact, you had when i was there in uh, september 2014. that's the time when the rebels declared the date, the director. because nobody to see any, in fact you had popular republics. not just in the don't boss, but also, you know, they saw in naperville drives it had a son, you had popular republic, that's where in fact i created. well they,

they didn't stay very long because the repression was very hard. and because the ukraine army couldn't manage that because of the presence of russian speaking soldiers, that's the reason why the government started to recruit or military forces. and those permanent free forces were in fact of tradition, at least 2 at the same guys who did the, the, the, might on a price, i think in fact, mean the 2nd stage of the uprising and those guys were sent to meet the repression in the south of the country and that became extremely violent and at, uh, in fact you had the, in the south, i mean, they saw that a saw, i'm neighbor bit drugs, could this you had really mess checkers and, and, and kind of of all the on the trade union building famously, but just actually,

that's what i exactly do a quick jump to today, because uh, yeah, i mean, so your contention is that as a lensky is facing, if we just leave aside the $61000000000.00 number that's being thrown around, they do a nation valuable propaganda media at that. so let's get in terms of getting the soldiers together. people in the south, as well as the still one to serve. and people in the west of ukraine, even, well, even around kid wouldn't serve as it lensky led to the army for the next. what have been hex to the us proxy has in school? well, in fact, what happens is that since last year, i mean especially off the feeder of the costs are offensive in 20 to 23. what's you had is that you had a division within the i would forces you had a neighborly. you had the patrol illusion a who became a investigator in the u. k. by the way. and you had the general, serious,

serious key will became the were replaced in fact, that lose me as head of government forces and between the 2 have a fundamental difference in the, in the approach of the defense of the country. in general, is that lose me. here's a little bit more russian, if you want a nice way of waging war, he's probably more interested in having more more bought welfare and using operation art in the, in the wait in defending the to mow, by the operations was. this is on the same line, a zalinski, and he was to defend every single square inch of the country. and this is, this is where you'll have the, the big problem in the, into ukrainian army because the russians never strive to try to get terry 3. the purpose of the, the, the russians in, in the intervening in,

in ukraine is basically to destroy the threats to the population on don't boss. that's exactly what led to be put in said the 24th of february 2022. and in fact, that's exactly what the russians are doing. so the russians are not trying to gain territory. they are just trying to destroy a potential. and therefore, the id of defending every square inch of the territory. insights plays into the strategy of the, of the russians, because the russians, they just, they, they just destroyed potential. these are the visuals, they destroy equipment. to destroy a weaponry, they destroyed everything. they don't, the don't needs to have be advanced and big arose on the map. this is not the the idea. but just because of his actions, you know, things and i ask, is the russian spies presumably but then oh, on the on developments right now though there have been

a tax on is that for each or reactor in the past few days? the i yeah. so even that, to make us arrest statement saying that all of western europe wasn't about to be destroyed by boys and this radioactive gas. presumably, i'm not sure what the events, but you know, you make the terrifying observation in your new booklet. these high mas, kamikaze drones from the united states, the britain stones from britain, and the firing is monitored by these native nations. does that mean that they know the targets, like that for reason or the targets in elder? all the civilians that will be happening in the past few days. well that's, that's exactly what to this is dot to my observation effect off shows the, the phil said that that's the, the rates and the french where in fact, assisting ukrainians in targeting and, and, and making those uh, the cruise me sizes, especially the sort of try those and the scarlet me, so i'm besides which are in fact the same me so i but one is the research one,

the french one. but in fact the, the western western military is assisting in targeting a for the, those me sides. so is the issue rather too frightening of responding given that we heard from boots in that if there were a nato troops in situ, in ukraine, that would be a response. we know that well, from the leaks phone. cool in germany that the british troops there, i'm not sure we were talking about is illusion. what his role is. we have with the intelligence services and that may 6 in london have as rush and just too frightening of attacking the source of those who are talking weapons of belgrade and in moscow i don't think so. i think you're the very small groups of individuals who are not talking about huge battalions and things like that. you have just a few experts that's that this is the so it's probably, i have no idea. i don't know if the russians know where those guys are. and where they are able to do, in fact, the target them. but if, if they would,

they would able to do so the, the russian would certainly do so. in fact, in january or early february, if i give them the wrong directions, targeted a hotel in a hot calls, which was a full of a french soldiers. and in fact, probably even personnel, west systems for the, the handling and maintenance of the enter across to me size. that's what i delivered by france to ukraine. so in fact, the verses on it afraid at all. as soon as there was the tech that was destroyed. so that's, that's, that's that for sure. now the issue of that footage, as you mentioned, the problem is that, okay, the kind of will have to get back to the nuclear reactor. i'll stop you. the more from the author of operation, alexa flooded the defeat of the vanquished and the russian, not a war. how the westland ukraine to the feet. after this break, the when the

world's largest democracy votes the rest of the planet watchers in an emerging multi polar world india as voice matters. but who will be the power behind watches, almost 1000000000 people decide and billions for react, the welcome back to going underground. i'm still here with retired, so it so let me go home and they to alice jack bow kindle. i rudely interrupted the end of one as you were talking about, you know, what could be the in the west and your about could be this week. it could have happened. this operation, nuclear plant and the nato and weaponry that went to attack it in the past few days

. well, if practice is not the 1st time to recreate and try to, to attack this uh, this power plant. and the purpose of that is just to, to, to provoke, they do, your peons to a, to intervene and a conflict. in fact, this has been a constant kind of policy or strategy of the ukrainians. this, the beginning of the, of the war in fact, trying to have a kind of a no fly zone or some kind of intervention from nato eden ukraine. and, and now this is exactly what the dell repeating. what has done last year and the year before, the just trying to provoke the intervention of the, of the western armies. the idea would be to create some kind of, uh, a demilitarized zone around the, the, around the power plant or something like that. that would, in fact, present a movement from the, from the ukraine side. that's the idea. and they,

they have done that, as i said in the past, so they would probably try again this year, this year. i'm the, that's the only study. and it's clear from, you know, lloyd austin, the boss of the pentagon with cancer when they will, from the pentagon. recently, he was testifying, begging for money and congress this week. clear that it isn't even about ukraine. he's honestly talking about how the $61000000000.00 is more about the rejuvenation of the weapons industry in the united states in the industrial base that is about anything to do with ukraine. why do you think the john list don't ask about if it really is so important for us security, boring the money into ukraine or weaponry into grain? the. the why is it, why are they outlawed us troops going to help the ukrainians as well? i think it has never been about to crane, and in fact, the 1st strategy regarding you created

a new fact. let's try to get describes exactly what we have seen in the last 2 years. was written in 2019 by the rand corporation. that's outlined a strategy with 6 points. that's this, that's uh, in fact, all the time is exactly what we have seen as well. so, and the purpose of this strategy was not to help you create it was to, to instrumental eyes, ukraine. it was a to, to weaponized ukraine if you want to, we can russia. and if it is less confirmed a few days ago by uh, by just the brand, the head of the, uh, the final phase of the european union. who said that this construct is not because we lot of ukraine it to be. it's because we want to support the us interest. so it's, it's amazing that even a very high ranking guffy show of the european union confessed that it was about, about just supporting us interest, by the way, in the rank operation,

the report or strategy the night or 2019 that's it is explicitly right, right. the, that applying or implementing the strategy would close to ukraine. huge loss of territories, huge losses in personnel, and will force ukraine in 2 of these advantages piece. so we knew from 2019 that's implementing the strategy would, would leads ukraine to look at that stuffy. now that again, the purpose of the whole think was to, we can rec shop. why do we can rush out? because at the, the, the, the, the, the, the, let's say, the center of gravity i would say of the us strategy is in fact china. and the problem is that they, they wanted to prevent russia to be a strong supports to china. and therefore, they had to weaken a restaurant. they,

even in the state department, there is an initiative. and you had asked in the last 2 years, 3 years, you had at least 7 in 7 international conferences about this. it's about the circle, the so circle this, the cut on these i did go to nice inc. russia, it's about dismantling russia and creating out of russia about between 18 and 32 countries based on the new city of the different republics. and inside to, to completely dismantled russia as the state. and again, the, one of the conference they've been happened last year in processing the breast and spot him in the bottom and building. so we have talking about something which is actually the offer schultz, which is on the website to also be the say department, by the way. so, but it hasn't worked out very well. okay. because trying to rush or close it

together. we don't match the effects y'all close it up and, but you mentioned the rand corporation people can watch on monday. we have a modem to help or a new road be ran documents that will leak by down ellsberg friend of this through the late daniels with the to help stop the vietnam war. last only after a few 1000000 it'd been killed. why is it that when you talk about the rand corporation, clearly explaining what the ukraine proxy, what was all about? it's in the public view, and yet the war is unstoppable. can we bet the fatality ration this ocean rates? why is it that when you quote the rand corporation and information on like the vietnam war, it doesn't stop this, this catastrophic war for the ukrainian people tomorrow as well. in fact, even the rank corporation has written several separate reports recently stay is saying that in fact, there is no point to continuing to explore. the problem is not, no, we are in a problem of a face, a face saving and both in united states and in europe and, and,

and don't are understood under estimate europe. in fact, so many sanctions for as an example of many sanctions, that's where applied to russia. where in fact a made by the, by the, by do your opinions against the advice of the americans. like, for instance, the sanctions about the old pro, older products, or even of hosting a rush out from the swift system. this was a, it was advised by the americans not to do that, but they were pins, decided to do it. so, no, we, we, we, we all know we in a, in a kind of, of spira, if you want, and nobody has the courage to stop it. and the we are and it is kind of of, uh uh yes, it is a spiritual violence, not the violence but yet, but the europeans are in fact engaging to that to listen to what the micro said. i

mean, the ease, right, paid to sense troops, even if its own population is against that. you don't think that's gonna happen though, right? i don't see any. you don't think that's good. well, that's a, i'm not sure it will happen. but you know, the problem is that it's so you rational, it's almost impossible to say whether a twin or we'd not not happen because we are no longer in a kind of rush. or if the, the decision making in the west was, was the rational. we would have stopped that last year. in fact, you know, you can have it for clearly, as the book makes clear how they completely misunderstand the proxy war and what russians responses to they through nation policy. why is it the major powers are so convinced? maybe it's just western european ones that against the advice of washington that say, the ministry defense building in london or the of the count deposited in paris. what would be taken out by potomac miss out from russia?

because the united because russian, the russian federation needs to make a boy and say, look, just cut it out. now we've had enough of this. well, i'm not sure exactly what to what to tell. just continue abroad ation. like as you said, macro, announcing the deployment of 2000 or the 1000 now french, foreign legion to ukraine. in defiance of what of the kremlin and the duma has been saying, i why are they so convinced the rush, you will not respond to any of these nato countries and tests that so called optical 5 as well. optical size is sort of is, is property. and excluded up from that. the question, by the way, because if, if uh, friends, find some sense troops, it's not based on the natal treaty, but on, but under biological treaty, which in fact doesn't based on the uh, washington treaty. so uh, in fact and, and, and the americans have,

have said they would not send troops on the ground and probably they would try to avoid that. especially because they are in a presidential election year. and therefore it was, it was probably be not to be very wise to start a new war to engage the us actively in a war. and this started this period. so the, the, the americans don't want to do that. the, i think the, the problem and the concern i have is that the, the recent a joint or let's say communication between france and, and u. k, especially with david cameron, a trying to have kind of a joints type of activity in ukraine. you know, if in, in an effort to provoke the u. s. to intervene. that's, that's, is that what? because they could, that could lead to a situation where the americans had no choice but to intervene. and you know, at the, exactly, you know, the bite and actually once this,

uh 61000000000 to go through it would, it would help him because as defeats approach as well. a job. how is it can then say it was the republicans felt that we lost another war after i've got it sounds, syria and it'd be, or of iraq and yemen, and who knows what i, where else? i think biden would like to have those 61000000000 a for you credit 1st of all, to just emotionally because i think this conflict for biden is, is just a question of emotion. there is no nice thing, nothing russian all into. but the problem comes probably from other parts, including within the state department, because they're, they're all different opinions about this. and apparently even, even we, we didn't to the state department. so i'm going to be just would like to stop the whole thing because he doesn't bring it in. and by the way, even depending on apparently, would probably not be unhappy if,

if this would stop because everybody sees the discomforts is going up. so if you know where he's probably, it's just reinforcing russia a, just an additional embarrassment for the president in fact. but the problem is that, again, well, i come back on this point. we are not witnessing a rational decision making in the west, and especially certainly not at the level of biden. and even at a to michael and even camera or on the property. and we'll shut off on the allow you and, and also the so called new your up. i'm talking about the baltic states and the boat and where you have people who are so enraged against russia, that in fact, whatever happens, they would be happy as long as you times directions. and that's a, that's a, a, a kind of a desperate situation that we have, which is, in fact concerning because i come from the strategic asians background

and my own working culture, if you won't, is that decision making should be rational. and based on factual analysis on what's going on on the ground. but what we have seen there in the last 2 years in, in the, in ukraine shows that in fact, no decision was really based on a factor of analysis on the ground weight. we just as it was based on assumptions and even on both of you for narrative, i mean a, wait, wait for 2 years. we, we kept saying that the russians were losing the war. they had no immunization done . no, thanks anymore. the poor commanders did the soldiers didn't want to fight, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. and today we are exactly. and the opposite situation. well, just say that russia is about to attack. the rest of europe has more weapons and the rest of europe has more. besides the rest of you and so on and so forth. so we

are in the total contradiction with all sense. and that in fact, nothing that we have heard in denied the last 2 years was based on any evidence. it was just based on even assumptions. kind of will have to talk about the likes of the other book, hopefully with the disease vine, gaza, so that kind of jack both. thank you. thank you. thank you very much. thank you for having the thank you. and that's it for the show, continued condolences to those very by you k u. s. u, i'm bombing in palestine 11 and m and syria and iraq. the new books operational acts up loud, the defeated the bank for sure. and the russian a lot of war. how the west that ukraine defeats arrived. now, we'll be back on monday with the us official who worked for obama clinton nixon, johnson and kennedy administrations. until then, keep in touch, why will i social media if it's on sense, if you'll country and i've drawn channel going on, they run tv hon, they'll come to it, you know, the episodes of going underground. so you monday, the,

[000:00:00;00] the the, what is part of the, the employee would post that isn't the defense you of us and that in the word part is it something deeper,

more complex might be present. let's stop without collision. is that spelled out of or the headlines on all to international as a russian and find some gain, some events, some in the past most coast troops taking the key vintage a part of a moist craig, that is in the donuts for public. iranian it's federal forces sees upholstered keys, registered the condo ship, knew the strait appointment was saying, it's linked to his rail. question is what it's called all the time. we would just wind under water and no one knows when we'll eat and we continue reporting from central russia when not continue in the city of our end. but some water level can continue to creep. the record high, the