on the i'm action or sense, you're welcome back to going under ground, broke us to go around the world from west asia where what some of cooling a 3rd world war widens limits mass censorship in nato nations of use information. and i'll give me a jump skin propaganda model and steroids with britain on the us bombing human in iraq and us proxies. bombing, syria and palestine. i'm loving and expressing this end just never be more difficult. i mean it stay declining american empire joining us onto of wiki leaks tortured in britain, his maps and it would be more emblematic of the savagery of a dying hedge them on. and i guess today assuming the former boss of the c,

i a over him since the 7th of october, a john list, all media worker is being killed every 2 days in the gaza genocide alone. and israel is even killing po, it's charles. las is an award winning foreign correspondents. these come and conflict in palestine, lebanon, syria, iraq, to somalia, and every trainer in western europe. his, they just broke his soul. just don't go mad about poets and he joins me now from florence initially. jobs good to see you again. obviously there's been so much kidding and gaza just this week while i guess initially and in less than your a bed talking about retaliation against iran and a poet in god's a refund. that area was guild in december. i just before we go into the events of this week and will go 3 arguably uh, tell me about soldiers go, go mad refund wasn't a soldier, but in world war one soldier as well. but as many

soldiers were probably, it was a very well educated generation, particularly among the officers class. they were raised on sheets or cakes, and shelley and other famous british power, shakespeare, milson, they could quote the metal legs, some particularly poet, like rubber graves or secrets. assume or wilford all or all of them were officers and british army in the war and all of them suffered something called shell shot, which we now call post traumatic stress disorder. my book is really about the fact that the war had on those men who were treated in a particular mental hospital called to craig lockhart or austin for officers where state for existing met wilford o one. and together they improved each other's poetry and also help each other to mental recovery is an exhaustive book about that when we now cool b. s. d. but do you think wilford owens? assume they're being read? why you say the british ambassador to the un let alone linda told me,

is greenfield of the u. s. when they refused to veto? sorry, they've veto resolution. cease fire resolutions at the un security council because i don't know what you've been thinking as you've been promoting the book, perhaps, as well as we hear the what a 100000 perhaps killed or wounded? mostly women and children, not soldiers in the gaza strip. i don't know what different match reading these days, certainly in the past they want to read so. so now and then n graves, the soonest potentially relevant here. because he was urging a diplomatic resolution of the 1st 4 more much as people are urging on an end to the solar and goes through negotiations and diplomacy rather than continue blushes . he wrote a protest about the war and he felt that the british war aims for distributors that

they were really fighting for imperial gain to france was fighting to take parts of germany that, um, did you want me to talk to them to where they keep 70 and it and then they, they were not really defending freedom. they were actually killing young man like systems, entire generation, in order to achieve their materialistic pain. it would be worth reading that protest today. i think because that was wise to assume was sent to a mental what time rather than court martian to put the war on trial. because it was a very prominent power, very prominent person from a very distinguished background of the central mental, still not much of the soviet union used to send people to mental hospitals if they were just, it was a decent or an effect of political president. yeah, i mean, the psychiatric cases, rather than to the us, i saw, you know, the, one of the 1st things done in ukraine after the 24 team go was they banned russian

poetry. they took down the, i think more than 30 statues of pushing. what was it like and listed here? what was your view of how, regardless of your view and what was happening? as regards the conflict in your why it was that nato power has back to, i mean renaming a push can park. obviously they'll stay epsky was payments to be ban rushing, soprano and editor banjo band and the usa from the met conductors. valerie, go give this relationship between ok so important. so frightening to the nato nations that they need to band poetry and poets. it is, you sound like it's not unusual in war for people to overreact and to take out against a culture of what is really a political issue in the united states during the 1st floor or drawing restaurants were attacked german for lynched. the german language was effectively bad. united states used to have thousands of german newspapers which were shut down or,

or how to convert to english or german was after english. the 2nd most spoken language in the country. this is not a huge rule in more time for people to forget that despite your differences, culture, united states, as a credit card hospital, for example, they never stopped playing german composers and the sunday saturday concept. because they felt that it was right to spectrum and culture, even though they were fighting a german and except tchaikovsky. i understand concepts of his have been banned in nato countries. and you know, ts eliot is being rated most go no, no problem. i mean, do you think the internet, global, south, bunch of whom supports a new world order, arguably, and believes there is world war 3 going on, whether it be great, whether it be gaza, that the war has already begun, and they're allowing poetry and not to continue but it's not happening in nato

nations. you think? we'll do a 3 hasn't begun. you know, i don't believe will work for you just because it had the gun. we don't be dead there be nuclear weapons destroying the entire planet. no, i don't. we're freeze. i think that there are differences. russia has in the ukraine. people don't like that. they don't like it just as we do just just as people do people in western europe and the stance the, the, the, the issue is not to demonize the other just because you have a conflict with and, and that to me it should be universal. it's not right, that costs you should be banned or that the holding should have been banned or any, any of the german language newspapers should have been banned during the 1st floor or just that's just not right for me. i believe in freedom speech, i believed and respecting the cultures of others,

but we can still have opinions about the justice or injustice of invading or the con, this is, i would say that, that cultural uh accompany meant as it were, is as one with the way i circled mainstream media where you are in italy, in western europe, and the united states is never being so bad when it comes to the genocide in guys or what have you felt about the reporting of when i read or there was a, there was, there was an interesting piece of the understand the interest, which is a very good website about a memo of the new york times, instructing people not to use the word mastic for when it's a report, but they're not allowed to use a word each other lives. the. there's a memo tool, employees of the new york times, they don't use the word genocide, occupied territory or even pallets. yes. and obviously that's just not you can't, you can't tell you reporters what to what out of how to frame their record. i think

the, you know, you know, times is over sensitive to, to this issue they've done some, some of the recording has been as much of it has been this. it varies from florida to reporter and day to day. but overall is the editorial policy is to favor one side or the other than that. that's all you have to be fair and objective and actually both sides the same, but they're there for the most part. they're not doing not just the docs, beneditas papers and bats, and some journalists and i, and you know, this one was either charlie or the b. c. yeah, i do apologize for his reporting to the bbc jeremy bowen. some years ago, he's been here for 40 years in 1st grade in fair just just as least you said, just as paul adams has been. she's been very good. jason burke at the guardian and gives her also very good guy through the to differ about some of those reporters. but you know, you're a fan of chomsky you uh and i the i'm friend of no,

i'm just yeah, i mean it'll be on this show. and the whole point of the jump ski model is you don't have to send memos from management to john list because there's a kind of censorship by default that goes on. that's the trunk model. what do you make of the fact that so explicit the come ons? is it what did you on this? have you ever seen anything like that? as i'm, when i'm in the places where i worked, i never received. i see that. no, i mean it's, it's on usual and maybe you know, times it just gone overboard because they probably had a lot of complaints about. some of the reporting tools in pro is really and yet, if you see the demonstrations in the united states, the poor poll numbers an important voting box. as of november, the election. i don't think we've ever seen such pro palestine movements in the united states. what do you, what do you make of the fact of what was once considered anti semitic? i just avoid even

a 2 state solution that the ones that division has got so much traction in the united states. uh, which is traditionally mean is a pro justice in the middle east as probably the balls have for many years on the team or can public his favor. an independent dollar spent each day, i mean, consistently for years, but the, the, that doesn't mean mdx office for the congress or to the white house. the, the public has, is as long favored a solution solution, preferably a 2 state solution to end this function of the blood should now is so green, so, so on. do some over 30000 people, men, women, and children killed and, and probably 3 or 4 times that number, severely wounded. and you see this can't go off in somebody's dr. stop to have you know, responsible material power. overall power would have stepped in a long time ago, just single. this is, this is enough,

enough software has been calls, it's going to be could it could lead to a regional conflict, a serious regional conflict in which the american interest would be severely fretting in his time to put a stop to it in the public knows. but the leadership isn't, isn't following over. i mean, you being critical of a lack of our, of solar diversity as regards about us bank restroom, because uh, you know, in the past few months really is it the, the chinese brokers uh, deal between saudi arabia and iran. how important is that going to be in the coming week? perhaps if one believes the, uh, somebody, it's a hysterical headlines in the other mainstream, easier. so golden western europe that there has to be retaliation from israel for they are kind of re retaliation for the range in response to the bombing of their consumers in damascus. i think, i think it's worth comparing of the era reaction to the october 1973 war

when egypt and syria went to war with israel in order to regain the territories that they had lost in 1967. and that time, saudi arabia led the way to have an arrow oil boycott on the west disabilities. and that helped to bring it in to that word for it fairly quick and. and to give somebody talks, it show you had a bad time to go to boston state. this time will acumen is much worse. and, and the palestinians, suffering much, much worse. the architects have not enacted an oil embargo on any one. they haven't done anything except pay a bit of lip service to the prostate and cause in order to placate their own populations, who are outraged by what's happening and they've done basically nothing. they have an aerospace that have given back to patients with this. you haven't given them separately. it's their, their reaction. the palestinians cannot rely on their products anyway. can a, it's

a bit like we used to say about the cars. the cards have no friends, but the mounts on the housing is only about josh, i'll stop you. the more from the award winning foreign correspondent and author, a soldiers don't go mad after this break. the water is part of the visit that the employee would post good. isn't that the place you wasn't that in the word? or is it something deeper? more complex? might be present. let's stop without cases. let's go. products are known in vietnam as american war, the vietnam war last, it's almost 2 decades and dragged in numerous countries. not

any time right now. and then you can just swing them what and empty, hundreds of thousands of american troops who was sent to the country to back the south vietnamese on me. i thought about that. not much. american soldiers, militant resistors, most loosely burned down entire villages and spread dangerous chemicals. and even lee by all right, did the americans ever fully acknowledge what they did and on the vietnamese veterans ready to forgive? yeah, yeah. yeah. that's, that's a ways to to

the welcome back to going underground. i'm still here with the world winning foreign correspondent and older as soldiers go mad. charles, last the jobs we were talking about the response in this region in west asia to the terrible events and in gaza. i suppose both of us would love it if i could talk to you right now. and then another book that'd be julie and assigns, giving is a diagnosis of geo politics at the moment, as russia, china breaks get closer and yes, in nato countries. the talk is continually of continuing war in europe. no negotiations. and there are no negotiations on the table as such as regards gaza. do you think us on just becoming more more emblematic is case of a press freedom and secrecy?

sondra is, is a victim of those who want to conceal crime war christ. and he is being punished for having made available documents that were released to him by whistle was from within the establishment that pro with united states in particular and committed work. and he's, he's being punished for that. and he not only being punished for that. and also being used as an example to others, so that they don't do the same thing. if julian were free now, and when he leaves for up and running, we would know a lot more about us policy on god. so we would know a lot more about what these raiders are planning on is that we would know much more about plans for the united states to deal with the wrong. um, but julian isn't able to function he's, he's locked up for 23 hours a day and the sell allowed out one hour

a day and it can find enclosed space for exercise. barely have it has enough to eat the budget. don't wash maximum security prison just $2.00 a day for food. he's. he's suffering a great deal. he does have, he still doesn't know his ultimately, he will be sent to united states to spend the rest of his life. and even worse confinement in american maximum security prison and his life, his life is hell and we're, we're actually homeless. the public are suffering, lack of knowledge because he's not there because when he leaks isn't functioning, because we're not able to find out many of the state secrets that we use to have access to say about one. you mentioned all these journalist. i don't hear them talking about designs. you went to visit him. i understand. i haven't seen him since our interviews. people can watch them on a rumble channel from inside the ecuadorian embassy during a political asylum of what was it like for you personally to see him in that state

. so, i mean, i think last time i saw you, we were maybe he was free of giving press conferences at the front 9 club which even that kind of turned against him. people. i remember telling me he's a sort of traitor. he's not really a journalist. he's a, i'm not sure what they told him, a russian asset who knows what a smidge and with so many, many, many journalist who turned pad turned against junior, including editors of newspapers. and i was the other slight, patrick cockburn, late john killenger stood by and kinda the citrus and their defense of him. and that is right above the division in, in the drawing mr. community on. however, now that it's so close to his ex producers, potential explanation, or major newspapers in the states of the reporters without borders and other other

to invest your conversations. you know, the national union journalist in britain has come to his defense and say, you should not be published. and what was it like for you going there, the backs of security prison in london in december? well, i have seen, i hadn't seen him since he'd been put in don't wash for 5 years previously. and i, as he doesn't look the same, used to simply pay, he hasn't seen the stone indeed has any, some land rover gives his most weight because he doesn't have enough to eat. she's week. um, what is the keys alert? his mind is still functioning, sharp as ever, he's aware of what's going on in the world. so he, he still is engaging and, and funny cuz he always walks are richard and very highly is one of the bravest. and then i have never been in my life, and he still is that right now? the united states, of course, gave an assurance this week. they won't kill him. why you suing the heads of

the c i a has regardless, i'm not, i'm not doing this. i'm seeing a former not meet with the 22 lawyers and one other journalist and i are joining new. suing the former head of the c. i might on page 4 in 2000, 17 and 18. he's dropping on our conversations with jordan, taking our cellphones and taking all the information or cell phones and quitting spyware optional, which, which, because we are american citizens. and because lawyer client conversations are pretty much oh, we are under the 4th amendment united states doing mike compel and hope to see i of that time. and yet of course the us making this assurance. they don't want to kill him when bumpo clearly said he wants to kill him and interact tend to as we know said drone bottom, him understand a friend of

a mile clooney was actually on the weekly leaks team bizarrely. i don't think she defends really and assigns now in these bizarre coal proceedings going through. and then what did you think of these insurances from the by did ministration that they wouldn't kill julian or something. the 1st of all, who was proposing an extra traditional assassination? not, not that he should be exc, which the education with us mentions are also to lead. we have a new condition which is due the british court has said they will not be true and cannot be or something not state because he's decided to jessica because that's a legal and interest and the rest of your so the us has had to give that a shot they have not met only assurances at the courthouse because also arrested. he received the same protections on the 1st and then the 3rd american citizen received and the us rather than give that sure it is said that that would be up to the us quotes. so it is just put the base for an authority additional position. i

think they want to extradite him in order to please nice days. but the us is, has not met the conditions at the quarter set. so i think you is appeal will probably go through and it may, it may turn out that he won't be actually, that's not extradited. that's what we're old. because i understand they call and give the 1st amendment rights because of the guantanamo georgia account, which is still in operation. and the british quotes, though, i think it really in a difficult position. they have explicit a documentation explaining all of assassination attempts or planning against a junior decides what we need more time. okay, so there's nothing to the 1st event for tonight that's, that's something else i understand below as the for those people tried to get 1st amendment rights for captives that um the how i might, i mean, i mean, clearly, i mean i'm, what's your not doing? would you give the issue or not? right?

they couldn't give any can any. in any case, the court is in a difficult position in britain. if it wants to please the united states, which the british embarrassed to try to do, but also conform commercial and british law right now does not receive the assurances disaster. and so they may not be able to extra document name or allow for is further appealed to go ahead. this, of course, after the judge in the british court said, all the other stuff about the like, interest, all the other stuff about, about the assassination attempt allegations. you see global, you might want to tell us and remind us about that. all you relevant to the expedition request only torture claims by you and robert to meals mailed. so it was being on this row. one is you can think of the fact all of that is judged irrelevant. well, that's why i'm saying they're trying to please united states or not, and you have the honestly just making it easy for them because they haven't given whole assurances that the court has asked for. and what did you make of the fact

that we can make the lives didn't apply for bail, but it didn't initially but to the court. the court has already gave you when. when brad, remember you had to search 50 weeks for a week of his original video job. and then after that they wanted him to be released on bail, but because he jumped the 1st time. the court when brent, i mean, can you see that in the global set of people are looking at this and thinking, why would you expect court systems in britain which has been a party to georgia? i think only this week, the case on abu ghraib has being talked about and policies that needs to the invasion of iraq. the united states, which has of georgia, can be in guantanamo where we know of black sites and so on. and the idea that they don't kill people who, when do exercise 1st amendment rights is on surprising. well, there's this region, poncas quotes mean united states. so they bind on wordpress freedom and they said,

united states is dedicated to press free a minor accident and at the same time he's, he's making sure the doing this on just kept international security prison in britain, waiting extradition to a maximum security prison. united states is this great office. we all know it normally is little south between all the states and britain and probably even in the buyer where and i haven't seen you on. so go mainstream media in nato countries commenting that much about the genocide. i presume that is not for because you don't want to talk about it. i will be the guests that these sorts of television programs have. um, it doesn't seem to be getting through the circle taskbar is riley propaganda. what however, israel failing and getting their message across, as they normally have done over the decades there's folks that are

still getting their message out. i don't know people leave because their message is contradicted by what people are seeing happening on the ground there. although they won't admit for him directly to his release and the addictions won't allow for and drugs in 2000 to report. there are many palestinian drugs, many who killed many policy and drug was to or their recording on video and audio writing about what's happening every day. it's on so that the propaganda just isn't no propagandist and we're going to be good enough to conceal these facts. we know the generational impact of, say, cyber, and should dealer of the 2nd and divide it and so on. i suppose going back to your book, talking about the horrors of the 1st world war, as expressed by the sultan classes in britain. how long will it take for this region to recover the people of palestine from what's been happening these past 6 months?

this is not only what's been happening this past expands is what it's going to happen in the next 6 months. i mean there, there is a risk of a major conflict between israel and to run the risk of further conflagration in dollars. i guess the idea of goes into rafa and there's a risk of the exit as of a 1000000 or more palestinians until the sign right. does or, or there's a risk of war between his result and his balling level, which would mean, what is the total destruction of lebanon and destruction? many is really cities. the, what we've seen so far has nothing to what we might see in the coming months. it's, it's a terrifying prospect. i think it's, it's, it's worth mentioning that isn't real fond of digital medic mission in another country. when i've kind of bombed american diplomatic missions and doris, mom and i wrote with us on the hell out of afghanistan, media,

we have to get in here and fight. and there's nothing about this is there's a violation. the convention is it is a violation of international law, and it's like it didn't happen and like the wrong, the initial response was just, you know, some crazy thing at the lowest child's boss. thank you. and that's it for the show . well continued condolences to the survivors of u. s. u. k. you nation, i'm kidding. in palestine, syria, human 11 and iran and iraq. we'll be back with the brand new episode on monday with redacted co host natalie morris. and you'll then keep in touch my role as social media results, census, and your country, and had to have channel going underground cl number. they'll come to watching you and all that a sense of going underground see monday, the

the with the end of world war one, the move in for an indian independence from the british empire flared up with renewed vigor. the british responded to the growth of the national liberation movement with arrest and brutal violence. repression cause active resistance. in march 1919 at the call of mahatma gandhi, a peaceful strike began in the country. but the british responded with a new round of violence and far bade the indians to gather more than 4 people. on the day of the sea bass at the festival, a huge crowd of civilians gathered in the center of the city of i'm to start in

northern india.