the, the hello i'm into la chan. you are tuned into modus operandi. it's a job that you take on until you die. you had one of the world's biggest organizations, spanning every country and every continent. and every day, millions upon millions of people listen to your every word your dictates can shape society. but we're not talking about the ceo of a multinational corporation. we're talking about the pope. this week we'll dig into the situation at the vatican as an ailing, 87 year old pontiff considers stepping down. all right, let's get into the m o. the

poll francis board jorge mario portfolio in argentina. in 1936 was tapped to be the 266, the pope of the roman catholic church over a decade ago. he's the 1st pope elected from the america. the child of italian immigrants to one side is young, jorge study to become a chemical technician. but after a severe bout of pneumonia that saw part of his right along removed, he fell to calling to the church. he holds several postgraduate degrees and has rustled. many feathers among more conservative members of the church. but now the 87 year old pontiff says he may step down early sending shock waves in the catholic community, especially with his most recent comments about the conflict in ukraine. while speaking to swift broadcaster r a side saying that t as would show courage if it raised a white flag and entered peace talks with russia. those comments had been harshly

rejected and rebuked by the west and zelinski. joining us to discuss pope frances and the role of the catholic church around the world. this is timothy j. gordon. he is a catholic philosopher, author and pod castor, his show called rules for retro grades. can be found on youtube and anywhere podcast, r syndicated, his latest book, the case for patriarchy is out now. thanks for joining us. tim. thanks for having me. great to be here. and so in late february we saw po francis once again be hospitalized briefly for the flu. i mean, he's an 87 year old man. we know he's had some health problems in the past. he has now publicly stated that showed his health getting the way of him performing his people duties that he would step down as pontiff. like his predecessor, pope benedict who was i believe the 1st ever to do. so my question to you is,

should pope francis do this and will this become a trend among future popes? and would that be a good thing or, or a bad thing? no, it's not a good thing. it is arguably a very bad thing that pope benedict the 16th did it. not just because the pontifical of francis has been so catastrophic which it has. it was a bad thing in, in of itself. by the way, little correction. there was another pope who did it about 600 years before benedict the 16th. the reason that it's, it's not a strong correction, a fit correction is because that was essentially a, a young pope who didn't know what he's doing. he, he retired, absconded from the chair of peter a couple of weeks, maybe a month into the pond to get after not knowing what to do. this was not the case with benedict, the 16th who had been the number 2 in the church,

the doctrinal chief, we called the cd f prefect, or you know, almost 3 decades under jump. all the 2nd before becoming copious, the presumptive pope ever knew he would carry for the program of john paul the 2nd, even before john called the 2nd, passed away. so it was extra strange when benedict 16 stepped down in it this time of the years when, when we think about it from february, march, it's been a strange ride for i think all the world but especially for us catholics in announcement by benedicts 16 in late february of 11 years ago that he would do so and most people know later that night lightning struck saint peter's it had been done once before. by such way, a boy po, it's been very, very bad for the church, largely because of who francis is. but also, just because it runs contrary to, we've had 266 popes. the notion of the pond certificate is that it's

a lifetime tenure, a lifetime appointment. and what, what has grown organically over the 2 millennia, 2 plus millennia of christendom. according to roman catholicism is what we call the vatican. the news refers to the vatican. this means that the caster is like the congregation for the doctrine of the face which i was talking about earlier. they helped even an old man po, even an ailing old man told who had say parkinson's disease like jump all the 2nd, had to still run the church from the chair of peter. and this is why it's especially weird that benedict's 16 step down because he knew that the church is equipped to handle really all situations. j. p 2 had gotten very sick

and he was test with, particularly in the doctrinal area, keeping things running. and there are other categories besides the cd f as well. that's the most important one. but there are others there 8 the categories. so it's strange that he step down. it turns out that it, it could've had a fascination with the ology of a point of view steps down for, for many decades. we know this from, from studying the earlier writings and some of the friends of benedict 16. and it seems to be an area of liberal theology. if i could borrow the expression, not that benedict was known as a liberal who was not, is known as a conservative frances, as a true, liberal theologian loves the notion and said, i think in the 2nd or 3rd year of his pontificate before he was as old as he is now, when he was still in the seventy's, i liked the idea of this. well, of course the logical liberals loved the idea of innovation. and it wouldn't surprise me to see him stepping down. of course the,

the role of secular politics that liberals never give up power seems to be the only thing stopping frances from doing so now. but it's an open question. i think it's negative for the church. the churches equipped to have an old, aged, sick, infirm pontiff, even one who's suffering from a neurological disorder like parkinson's disease. and it makes it especially strange that it is 16 did it. after being the number 2 guy, the go to guy for many years. well, his predecessor jump, all the 2nd was ailing as po. okay, i stand corrected on benedicts 16. i didn't go that far back in history and a very long history of the catholic church has. um, i'll put an asterisk on benedict as the 1st to do so in modern times. so what do you think the impact of this pope francis has been among the church and, and with catholics all around the world? what's going to be his legacy?

that's a difficult question and the response is strongly bifurcated. among catholics in the tenure of frances, he has sort of galvanized opposition among conservatives who in theological circles like cultural and political circles, can be languid, they, they suffer from tor 4. and conservatives are generally happy people who are trying to live their lives, the best life family lives more often than not. and so they're not ready, you know, at the sticks to make changes or to, to, to wage counter revolution against the revolutionaries. and it doesn't really work the same way in the church when you have someone like francis, who's essentially revolutionary attempting to wage revolution on, on changing doctrine in the church for 2000 years. so his legacy will be that he galvanized on a re embracing of tradition if you will like me i'm, i'm

a latin mass catholic. my home parish is in new orleans, almost 2 hours away where i can go to the tra denting lot nice. and this got changed around vatican to when our parents were young and there are some remnant class of catholics that went to the latin us the entire time. but it was really under frances that young people returned to the latin mass because things got sufficiently bad. the attack on tradition writ large, got sufficiently aggressive to drive a bunch of 20 year olds to the latin mass, which if you go to any t o m parish, lot mass around the country, you're going to see mostly young people. now that is the opposite narrative to the one that the liberals, the theological liberals of the 60 steering vatican to we're telling all young people want to be crap and guitars and come by are not so,

but we didn't know it as i mean now i was kind of, i have had some part in helping to popularize the t o m a among other catholics who i, i attended the team and before francis came into this see of peter. but most young catholics have kind of only come in as a sort of kind of response to francis' and in some sense that's a good thing. there are, there are those like liberal catholics who are essentially circular squared. you can't be a liberal in a catholic who of course loved francis. but there are circular squares. they're very, very confused. dogs chasing their own tails. and i would just say that phrase is in many ways is flushed out the mold because the church has had this are our enemies one. i believe it's a death spiral happening since before about a can to since essentially the protocol vatike into in 1958. where,

you know, it's an embarrassed kind of self loathing when the church, confronts herself on the stage in front of the world. instead of proudly proclaiming what the catholic church always had for 1950 years. now, all of a sudden a sort of shame faced about the announcement for truth since around that time night . so let's call this the onset of vatican to 1962. the church has been in the spiral of shame and embarrassment for bringing the truth. and this became, like i said, about frances, notable enough over the last 11 years, that i think a lot of people are realizing there will need to be a vatican 3. partly as a clarifying response to the pontificate of number 266 francis and partly as a clarifying response to some of the ambiguities of that a can to i think that's going to be his legacy. all right, coming up next. the catholic church is the single biggest land owner all around the

world outside of government entities. why does the church own so much land? we'll discuss it when we return with timothy j. gordon and sit tight. the m o will be right back. the the

the hi, i'm receptive and i'm here to plan with you whatever you do. do not watch my new show. seriously. why watch something that's so different. little opinions that he won't get anywhere else. what could i please or do you have the state department? c, i a weapons, bankers, multi 1000000000 dollar corporations. choose your fax for you. go ahead. i changed and whatever you do, don't want marshall state main street because i'm probably going to make you uncomfortable. my show is called stretching time, but again, it's not. we don't wanna watch it because it might just change the way you the the welcome back to the m o m l a chance.

timothy j gordon is back base for sticking with us tim. all right, let's talk about the role of church in our society as a whole. the catholic church and more broadly, perhaps christianity, according to a 2019 q research pole. and over whelming, majority of americans, 2 thirds of them believe in the principle of separation of church and state. does that separation truly exist? and how would you compare or perhaps contrast that with how other countries don't separate the 2, i mean, take, for example, the is lumnick republic of iran, regardless of what anyone thinks of that country as a matter of governance. religion, in this case as long is part of the state. that's a very, very fascinating question. and it's got a couple of parts and i'm honored to be able to respond to it. the 1st off what

a lot of america. i'm also a constitutional scholar. i went to law school pretty much only to study the constitution and what most americans don't know or have been brainwashed or lied to about. is this idea of the separation of church and state. this country was founded that space in 1788 is when the, the 9th state ratified the constitution under the promise that took 3 years to make good on by the federalist those who wanted it ratified to the anti federalists. those who did not want the constitution ratified until the summer of 1791, a bill of rights. right? really the 1st 8 amendments to that constitution which stood as guarantors of specific rights which weren't addressed in the 1st 2nd or 3rd articles with the constitution. and amendment one, the only amendment in the entire bill of rights to mention specifically the congress stipulate something that most americans just don't know. and it,

it applies particularly about separation of church and state 1st amendment. and it applies to all the other bill of rights. amendments as well. the bill of rights was only meant to constrain the national government, the congress. and that's why congress has mentioned in the 1st amendment. so it's congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, of the state governments which remember back then when america was truly america, before we really lost our country. the state legislatures made all of the sexy, important, moralistic legislation. and they all were assumed 13 out of 13 by even jefferson, who had the funny relationship with christianity. he didn't love it, but he helped madison to frame amendment one. and they assume that 13 out of 13 states would have an official sect of christianity. the most them would be protestant,

they figured because most americans were protestant. but they thought 13 out of 13 would. and in only 8 of 13 state legislatures adopted in official sacked under the 1st amendment of christianity. what this means is the 1st amendment in until this, this year, 1947, the case called everson versus board of ed, which reversed the meaning of the 1st amendment. they all had the 8 of 13. it could have been the other 5, they just opted against it to have an official establishment of some protestant sacked. it was mostly congregationalist puritan sex of christianity in the north and church of england in the south beneficial state religions. and as a matter of fact, the 1st amendment meant congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion. what it really meant is that congress will not this establish official state establishment of christianity that was literally from 1791. until 1947,

a solid 150 years of what i call true america. the federal isn't. it just meant that the national government couldn't comment deer. the sexier law making powers of the states, it's called the police power of the states, comes from the 10th amendment. the conservative flow. and what it really means is that we can of moral legislation. the libertarians don't love that, but the more legislation should all come from state legislatures for the several states. if you don't like your states moralizing legislation or i'm not a baptist, but i live in mississippi. i'm a roman catholic. um i could move if it bothered me enough, i could transfer state lines. i could go to louisiana where there are a lot more catholics. if it really bothers me, you can vote with your feet. that's until the national government started swallowing the whole. and that's when, in that case i mentioned earlier, everson versus board of education. it was 7 of 9 scoutis juris 7 of 9 who were freemasons. they reversed the meaning of the 1st amendment. they

use something called incorporation doctor and they said now all of a sudden the bill of rights applies to the state legislatures as well as the fed. and now it means the opposite of what it had meant for a 150 years. that the congress, really the court could this establish state religions even though that was the whole purpose of the 1st amendment. so, because you know the masons on the court in the law fair, in the culture of such power, they've convinced everyone over the last 60 years that essentially the opposite purpose of the 1st amendment was the case. it wasn't a separation of church and state is not a good thing. it does, it, does it look like some healthy corrective of islamic theocracy, christian christian theocracy works differently, especially under the auspices of federalism. now i would say this western civilization has an intellectual figure head that figure head is,

is aristotle. and aristotle was a greek philosopher who, uh, and when iced the west. and there was a really deliberate effort around america's birthday to de how nice the west, and that was a really, really, really bad thing. and then not just intellectually, but morally and spiritually. the west was all built by the christie entity, that was aristotelian, aristotelian christianity, you know, it is catholicism, invented the idea of hospitals, medicine hard science, matrimony, patriarchy, charities, libraries, universities, grade school, high school, orphanages, and the idea of christendom. which means the right kind of integral mixture of, of church and state, not not the creepy islamic via credit kind, but specifically christian kind. so it's, it's a good thing. you know, lots of lots of false indoctrination at the hands of the public schools on this

particular matter. so once upon a time the church was the most powerful institution all over the globe. right. i mean, it influenced kings and queens, whole governments and so forth. some might argue it's still plays a fairly large role in american politics. i mean, take, for example, would be overturning of ro is the church still a key player in global governance? this is a tricky question. roe vs wade and the return to the states rights represented by jobs versus bolton is largely a legacy win for the american catholic church. and the american catholics were like a $3.00 bill because our ideas have always disproportionately informed the good a leads in america like justice, thomas, or justice scalia, particularly on the high court. but we, you know, we're demographically, we've never been represented at the same ratio. so i would say dobbs versus bolden

is the, the one bright spot, the, the small white pill. and it's not that small over the last decades. on the whole, i would say that american catholics who have always been this $3.00 bill, this side of the pond, have suffered from some, some of the stuff i've already mentioned. a church which is embarrassed of its own truth over the last 60 or 70 years. and that's the case even in um, in europe. look at, look at ireland and i, i studied in, in rome, i was beginning a doctorate in rome at a pontifical school. and the italians in rome, beautiful city, they don't know what the treasure of patrimony they are sitting on their in row, so the europeans aren't much better. i would say that there's, there's a confusing mishmash whereby the church hunter, this, this most unfortunate pontificate. number $266.00 is running around with folks that

play geo politics from the wrong angle going the wrong direction. like bunky moon, the un, or jeffrey sachs, or amable, nino, w e f. the church's under frances, as even had meetings with the world economic forum. it's truly unfortunate, so to whatever extent the churches influencing world politics under pope francis it's, it's been negative and it's been more the catholics taking the lead of the people you would never want. leading the world like the w e. f under his predecessor benedict. 16 things were a lot more traditional and the church did still lead the world in some, some positive directions. benedict 16 was known as a conservative in american protestants, loved benedict, the 16th as, as the us faithful catholics. i don't know why he laughed when he was so healthy.

he was healthy for 10 years after if i have to. and it's really one of the great james and mysteries of the modern era. but i would just say a historical know to been a, as well that the, the cherry country to what you're going to be told in american public school. it was, it was the great wound in christendom. when in martin martin luther waged a revolution and this really splintered europe in a way where europe had had a university, political and cultural university that enabled europe to really stand for something, it stood, stood for the cross, even with its foibles is exaggerated foibles in the history books after the wound of the protestant revolt. this, this change the situation in europe became frat tile in a way it never had been before. and it hadn't been even after 1054. when church, eastern church west split the latin and greek church, which became, you know,

orthodox versus catholic, that didn't to do as much damage as $1517.00 to christendom. in the, of the unity of christians. that in many ways was pollinating the foundation of america. even though the foundation of america was largely good. and we've wound up in this situation where christians feel scatter divided and leaderless here on the 21st century. it's really sad. timothy j. gordon. philosopher, author of the case for patriarchy and host of rules for a retro grade. thank you so much for that deep insight today. i really appreciate you have any thanks for the time, and i've really enjoyed it. all right, and that is going to do it for today's episode and motors operandi the show that takes deep into foreign policy and current affairs. i'm your host manila chan. thank you so much for tuning and we'll see you again next time and figure out the m . o. the

take a fresh look around his life. kaleidoscopic isn't just a shifted reality distortion by power to division with no real opinions fixtures designed to simplify. it will confuse who really wants a better wills and is it just because it shows you few fractured images presented to this, but can you see through their illusions, going underground can hello and welcome to across the full board. here we discussed some really

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my brother through he was cited to helping a friend, lo, drums into the church. it's almost our fire side system, so now i never look at searches as being the same. well, you can see the slide is constantly. yes. this like somebody's walk into drive and pass all lights on right around the we really don't have the whole time life. right . there's a part of life really is a said none of the time we all a lot of people are in games with they affiliated with games because, i mean, i live next to you and like we grew up together. so i'm of course, i'm your friends. but then people see day and say like,

oh so you must be one of them will never save around a group of guys like it could be a group of rough guys. why over there that look like they can kill us at any moment . but the police officers and i feel equally a scare, the direct marketing call. nobody on the right. okay. the police bagley's only kind of the police. these gang in chicago is like when you get pulled over the police, you literally think your life is over the port over they as by def, everyone in the car. and you hesitate to reach by d because and everything is going to me. if these one opposite, all you can reach for, we're not going to suit a left about around the nation fee party side moving.