the hello and welcome to cross ok. we're all things are considered. i'm peter lebeau. the 9th of may is a venerated day on the russian calendar in march the victory over fascism in europe in 1945. tragically the collective west just forgotten. the cross talking victory de, i'm joined by my guest, laudermill goldstein and providence. he is the chair of the department of slavic studies at brown university. in belgrade we have steven guides. he is a research associate at build rates, institute of european studies, adding van and we crossed to alexander markovich. he is head of the 2 vote off institute in vienna, right down in cost cycles in effect, that means he can jump anytime you want. and i always appreciate vladimir, you were born in the soviet union. so i want to go down history lane since this is actually a program about history, a very important history for millions and millions of people around the world,

particularly in russia. what was victory day like when you were living in the soviet union as well? it was, i'm really, really, you know, joyful a holiday. you know, 1st of all, there was a whole kind of glossed out of, you know, may, these may for us may 2nd may, may 9. so i really was like, spring, everybody was celebrating and you know, there was, of course, so it shouldn't be just sweet moments. my father was in the war and you know, they always, you know, when people get together there was a member of those google keel that who were not there with them. but still they moved was a very 1st year. you know, no school. you're going to watch amazing parade and onto the 8 was you know, you can see, you know, people marching. so it was just a lot of a lot of lives, a lot of call lot, a lot of joy. you know, i, i don't know how many, you know, russians really at that moment solve and so, you know,

and started to use that whatever. but it was like, we all knew, it was like, you know, bones that this is a very on foot hippy. that there's a new it in your boat and 0 it that's come, that's here again. and i'll talk about that later in the program here because i want to talk about how the picture day is being read defined in a very good way. my opinion saving, you know, in my introduction, the collective west is primarily overwhelmingly kind of forgotten this day, this victory day on may, 9th, why is that? okay. i mean, it is, they don't want to give credit to the soviet union slash russians and they have a fast, isn't problem. now in the west though, there's a lot of different avenues we could discuss when we talk about the app. if be in the west, i think of the george or little game it was the answer is 1984. the ministry of truth is creating or recreating the boss. so that is why, because of the currents of political issues or political agendas,

they are a minuscule in the middle of the soviet union. they don't want to mention that almost 30000000 a soviet, most the russian citizens died were killed or died liberating europe. and especially now that we have this a revival of naziism in the, in the west, in general, but especially on the european content 1st and started with eastern europe, but then it spread. uh so uh, if the rumors are true, the symbolism of the victory, the russian flags, the soviet flags wouldn't be bad in, in berlin for the 9th of may. but we'll see. anyways, uh there is a, is a issue that they have a problem with. and also uh well when we talk about historical revisionism,

it is germany that is not as k that came out with a resolution that wants the slander ser herbs. and that was the germans who during world war 2 shots of thousands of. busy natalie citizens, but also a small children, especially in the, in the city of cloud. we have ads during world war 2, so uh now, uh, it was historical revisionism his game to outrages levels as well. it's very interesting, alexander, when i was a young man. um, one of the most impressive documentary is i've ever seen up, up until today was the world that war was made up by the b, b, c. and um, it was a brilliant, brilliant series. and primarily because it had witnesses, people that were actually witnessed the events making these kind of document present were very difficult because it can't really, you don't have witnesses that it's essentially been washed away. it's not on

youtube anymore. when it was a got, it had millions of hits, it was one of the, like i, i believe one of the greatest documentary is ever made. but there was a 2 episodes in that documentary series that was, i guess you would say today was sympathetic to the soviet union. that's for bowden today. alexander. well, yes, um. as i mentioned before, there's a certain political trends in the west which actually tries to diminish the soviet casualties. and um, also the soviet contribution to actually defeating fascism, the media and in the story all christie. and therefore of course, for example, if you look at the change of the official narrative from the west, if you could somehow get the impression that it was actually not the soviet union fighting against hitler and the nazis and was

a 2 bots that there were some kind of ally of national socialism and fascism. yeah . instead it was just because of the united states of great britain, that fascist and was defeated, which is of course totally wrong. but since you don't all have this western um war of aggression against russia and um, in this overall war, so ukraine of cause you're trying to keep an ice roster as much as possible. and um, this means also um, altering the history itself like um that before the ministry of truth is live and well again it seems and staff for us this strange kind off. um yeah. history policy um going on? no. the only drum any way or no. uh no longer lots to so so if you have flex on the um associates they are for 3, but uh where the drum and media, for example, also try to portray um vladimir putin as the 2nd the other fiddler. um yeah,

us back in an hour or it's all a while the same germany that you're talking about is arming a fascist big battalions in, in your, in ukraine. so in the object germany has a lot to it has a lot to answer for particularly today. okay. let me, you know, one of the things that we've seen here is that when we look at the narrative of the destruction of fascism in europe, you have a, yeah, the hollywood version, saving private. ryan, the wars over after the invasion of normandy, apparently to hollywood. and then you have this very despicable trend of equating this, the soviet union and nazi germany as being the same thing. both are historically obviously wrong. vladimir, your history is being the user. and unfortunately in the, uh, it was very, you know, very successful campaign. i guess in the west, you know,

we know by the side is when they se range people arise after the war. every contribution in the rush or what would be like, are considered like the main continue to the victory you move forward 30 years ago . you know, the same paul, and all of a sudden the same french people say that you're not united states. i mean contributor and i tell you are a complete exec. i don't need any of those from my teaching to the where it is in the course that he hello places on the russian culture. and my quality historian says to the students, it went to talking about war 2 and that's a rational one. the war students look like with a big surprise, you know, i think. and he said, yeah, yeah. and brings always going to request them pretty historical data that they had, you know, k, e, very young students. they listen to that, then i am hanging out with my friends all university indicated and they just refer to the zip is all they looked at me was of course, americans wonder what are you talking about. so this was them making things up as

you know, i know i know this of that. so, but i would add that it is done for a very particular and the new failures. and the reason, because if you were to go to the eyes of the russians last so many people in the, you know, such a, such a major event, you're bound to take the country and it's interest very seriously. you're bound to take very concerns about national security or, you know, the safety of the board has to use if you, if you think that they didn't do anything, i really don't think it was due. and i think it's really kind of funny how the whole narrative shifts events, you know, now 1st of all, take the interest of jewish people serious me. they remember there was a photo of course. so this is taken seriously. but the last of forget about it, and this is kind of really peculiar. so, you know, we won't bends over backwards to understand the drama store and just said that there's a that there's a legitimate that. but what about the, you know, russia, what about the national goods and they've been, the board has been crossed again and again and again. but in reading the european

forces, who is there just because i didn't was another option because initially they just avoid diminishes. and, and just into and, you know, look, eyes on the gate, tweak now. russians do not. yeah. you know, it's steven the, the historical fact is that the, the, the red army liberated all of the death camps and other camps as it moved west. that history is being forgotten to steven. exactly. i mean, if you ask people, i remember personally, i was starting in the united states and i have these conversations of we were to and, and who was the greatest contribute contributor? i was obviously saying it was a sort of a junior and people would laugh. i mean, they think that the war was one of the pacific. in bibles, the some islands with jump out with japan and normandy and the rest is a, is some blurry picture to doesn't really exist, especially me, the uh,

the story with the death camps deborah o liberated by the soviet union. and this is why the holocaust ended when the red army entered these places. so up until they were liberated the, the factories of that were working. and this is one of the uh, the level st greatest. uh uh, she went to terry and achievements during the war, but it is the only one of the episode and it is not only not recognized. uh, but uh, it seems that the sanctions, it'd be c of west against russia are going to be on today's moment. however, uh, by doing this uh, the mainstream western history obviously has isolated itself as the west has in general. well, what? well, what they do before we go to the rank here, they celebrate nazis and canada. we solve that, ok, we solve that and the end,

and that's not going to be the end of a gentleman. i'm going to jump in here. we're going to go to a short break. and after that short break, we'll continue our discussion on victory de state without the it's almost uh, almost a cliche in the west, but this whole idea of with my, to the last you brain in some truth behind it. i mean think bought it for the american, the $60000000000.00. so the reason a package, not a lot of money. a lot of money stays within the united states in terms of the defense contracts and the like. and all that money that, you know, they buy time, they prolong the war to keep russia busy. you know, this is the, ultimately, this, what the west is doing is all about you know, trying to preserve west to take him and a, a

russian state. never as one of the most sense community best, most all sense and up the in the 65 with the keys 195 and speed. what else calls question about this? even though we will then in the european union, the kremlin, the machine, the state on the russians to day and split the ortiz full tech, even our video agency, roughly all the band on youtube, the tv service was for question. did you say steven twist, which is the

name of the day? that's it, letting you think he said that then you can the minister facade indeed. and therefore the window at assuming that the to look into intermittent cairo is the dimensions of the photo i'm seen. send the most of the to the the

motion of the the welcome back across stock were all things are considered computer la about your mind you were discussing victory day. the okay, let's go back to alexandria, indiana. one of the interesting things here, since we're talking about history and history all graphy, we look at the present day, the proxy war that is being waged against russia using ukraine. if we think back to 1941, when the soviet union was invaded, nazi germany had an array of a co, a coalition of countries it occupied. it was allied with and it was a collective west, not the united states yet, but in the collective west, under the rule of the nazi germany invaded the soviet union. now let's go up to

today. russia is facing a wide coalition of western countries, almost exactly the same ones. and it stand off over you quite a lot. you know, if you say that, that's all that's heresy for a lot of people. because, you know, with, with russia is saying, and autonomy, or is already touched upon and, you know, wave after wave. where is of invasions, where do they come from? they come from the west. go ahead. alexander, i'm, yes, exactly. i just recently watched um the great movie. um, alexander, may i ask the buyers that okay, um eisenstein mm. which actually premier than 19 um, i guess it was 1941 um, shortly before the start of operation. but most of the not situation of the soviet union, which actually had this very topic that's there is a long history of westland aggression against russia. of course, coming from the west to russia because the west is not able to accept russia as the

other as a different civilization. right. which is actually not itself and therefore it's, yeah, regularly you could say, tries to destroy russia to obliterate it, to colonize it. um, to carry the parts as we could see in all these plants about the so called the color nice ation of russia. and unfortunately, there are also these plans of exterminating russian people as we could see. not only during cannot, i've done aust butts. also, during the sea of puts machine since 2014 events in odessa, what's happened in on boss was domestic. there's there. and yeah, that's what, of course the west somehow tries. i'm so mad let's actually this very fact that it's that there is a long history also, aggressions coming from the west to russia instead of course, russia um is not so elucidating um or insane if it says that it has um,

needs for security guarantees by the west the test, a need for peace in eastern europe and for security zone. and of course the for this 3 maybe is not direct, treat repeating itself, but it's rhymes. yeah, i think there's, there's going to and see there's a real, i'm wondering from the middle ages, exactly what an opposite russian until no, no doubt that there is a pattern here. vladimir, it's very interesting. again, if you look at the, if you want to take history seriously, russia, but we to imperial russia, what we called russian today is the only major land mass. the western powers never call in ice. and that is what they see is a missed opportunity and they, they, they haven't given up on it. they, russia is the only one that stands out there was not colonized by an outside or vladimir a. yeah, it's a unique civilization. there is a very good story and marshal ball and he wrote about that. he said, yes, it's,

and indeed is that, you know, a peculiar uh, unique cautions organization or reach it didn't fall on the other risk than effects . you know, you can look for on it, you know, for me. so it is age and older minds, indians, mexicans, in, uh, training is they all will cross it by the west and it will shape in the, there they own the image and likeness as opposed to russia who deals with usually goes into the, you know, tremendous efforts to defeat a, you know, a very innovative and i would say with an ad to alexander, you're not allow alexander in the near ski film these uh to 22 nights, which in rate is very, you know, arrives lands and in yesterday defeated century they were actually related to this for the old, a west the night school in the 4th grade on their way to every jerusalem. they actually 6 comes on general, but yeah, they just drop this off the ropes in house and that is what they did. so these are

the say are very, you know, say we were getting an ad there also, what sort of facility just doing the just they mention over i should as well because it actually is your, you need a careful of fish jayenne. but as soon as ation religion, so somehow the risk feels very uncomfortable about it was because the oldest invoice amount over sources and it is a model. yeah. oh, who and, and it was like, you know, a very big interface. the more so for the west ramp and they continue to do that. so it's a lot of noise. it's of what you expect and the paranoid, you know, saving it again. broadly speaking, if we look at what would many would call the greatest hills of the, of the 20th century fascism in for many people, communism fair enough here. but they're all what, those are western ideas, western ideas. they came from the west. unfortunately, it took cold in it, and i'm just expressing my opinion in russia. russia is recovered from that

promoters experience. but these are western ideas they, russia is had to confront. yeah. that is, uh to, uh, i'd like to go back to the, the issue of broader here, a bit west here to be a correlation as a guest against russia. this is in a way, a unique situation that we are witnessing now that the west is almost completely united or completely united against russia. but it was not the 1st time, only 19th century, there was a try me of war. uh, look at the quotation of a broader coalition of western countries. but also before that, the napoleonic wars, we always see it as a russian versus the french. but in fact, the french army consisted of many other western european peoples and, and small armies that were uh there were joining in. so in a sense, there is a cycle, a historical cycle of the component that you mentioned ideas these alt is also very

important because russia was um, for the last 300 years. always, unfortunately, it's some kind of a, a cultural, he's a pre, uh, looking at the was yes and that didn't get affected by the ideas that the could actually be almost legal to it. and i think that this is a peculiar moment that ascends, that russia is finally awake. and, and i don't think that they will repeat the same pattern that started somewhere with the reforms of peter degrades. and the russia is basically, i think, coming back to itself. well i in and out as stephen, i to add to that i agree with you. absolutely. the difference is rush is modernized itself. it's not it. and it disadvantages. like it was before, particularly as you brought up the crime in more, alexander, i've lived here for 26 years and i studied the european in russian history in

a graduate school. and, you know, i always looked at the, the victory day may, 9th is during the soviet union is a legitimizing factor for the communist party. they won the war and they should get the credit. fair enough i, i'm not going to take away from that, but i think now in the 21st century a we have already touched upon in this program. this is also a separate a celebration of values, and i would say conservative values also go ahead. alexander. yes, um, i would agree with you sense of course, the great picture of the board in russian historiography is connected with the defense of the lines with the defense of russian celebrated tea and also of course with the defeat of fascism and definitely worse to defeat or from western aggression against russia and john dell for of course, it's not only an important day for russia, but for yeah, most european countries. yeah, definitely. also because of months,

the ends of fascist months, there may be also ordinary germans and all spencer suffert's from the consequences of the receipt of fascism. but i guess that's the wherever the fetal fascism itself is an important events because unfortunately, neither comment is smaller conservatives and all strands in germany were actually able to topple the hitler machine and fascist and by themselves. so they needed this help from the outside. otherwise, we would maybe still is unprofessional through and i guess therefore it's also an important day for europe itself. yeah. well, why do i mean it should be, but it's not okay. because, you know, you've been on this program many times and i always appreciated, but this is also a culture war. the west reason rejects russians culture and its attitudes and its value. so that's part of this proxy war against russia. vladimir a yeah, i mean is

a, is there is it, you know, we can order a weakness. it is a recently, you know, improve all by the war in ukraine. auto is a blue. see it's a performance is a can. so all the form is a can so in our i so it's good for you, but it, it, yeah, it was like, i remember was reading they, it's at the moment usually they wanted to teach a course on, on the say, yes, you that you, when they came up with the idea. maybe it's not that, but what do you mean is not that this is like, will classic lives ever, but your benefits, you know, i did, you know, i told this, they ask you about the semester students. this is do the, as they open up the hippie, you know, we have the most popular courses in our department and other this semester, it was wonderful story. you know, this is like universal list and it has to be any customized and appreciate it. but i would also say that to us also have to appreciate, you know, a weston where it is. there's, you know, we should just diminish it. i mean, these are the great was, was a very wise guy and come to global guy. he was probably 0 ago rush of us can use it to deal with the west to fly the where the has to have more than the more than this

one that. so why don't you have to be very kind of creative in this not, not, you know, not slave. usually that we'd be interested in preference, which priority do not walk in. no rush. i suppose that a different piece. they thought the different culture, but to use them for a magically there's absolutely nothing wrong with it. and i think i would say that, you know, with some smart west and this extra understanding. and i know all the, you know, the caller id or for example, sustainable agriculture. would it be actively developed by a ration, you know, scientists and i know it gets caught block. it was like very much, you know, very much pretty do it. and they and they know that and they're not. and so i think the rest of the problem, logical as it should be problematic doing well, you know, i, i will what we've run out of time. i just, i wish the westwood act on its words. you know, like, except diversity, they don't accept diversity, but it has a russian present characteristics with it. gentlemen, thank you very much. that's all the time we have one, i think may get some problems be in it. and in belgrade, and of course, i want to thank our yours for watching us here at archie. so you next time,

remember process the the known in vietnam, american war, the vietnam war, lost it for almost 2 decades and dragged in numerous countries. not any time between now and then you don't see it now. what is all i'm empty? hundreds of thousands of american troops was sent to the country to bank the south vietnamese on me. i got to develop that. not meant to supply the american soldiers limited resist as mercilessly to down entire villages and spread dangerous chemicals. and even lee

lead up day by all right, did the americans ever fully acknowledge what they did on the vietnamese veterans ready to forgive? yes, yes. that's the way it's too late to take a fresh look around his life. kaleidoscopic isn't just a shifted reality distortion by power to division with no real opinions fixtures designed to simplify. it will confuse really once a better wills and is it just because it shows you fractured images, presented as fast? can you see through their illusion going on the ground can

1941 with the nazis health relation, ultra nationalists. the u astonishes, proclaimed the independent state of croatia. shortly off, the seizing palace. they built the scene of us concentration camp, a place associated with the worst atrocities committed in yugoslavia during world war 2. use dash is used to come system to isolate and exterminate subs, roma, jews, and other non catholic minorities, and political opponents of the fascist regime. conditions in the santa of us come with her renders the gods to which it to arise. and the prisoners they send in the concentration camps. so most of them died 6 was incredible genocide. the, the

thousands of protesters gather and sweden to show their oppositions. israel's presence in the eurovision song, competition, prying, hip hop per see over the double standards over the train ended the complex uh double the treatment for that reason i think that we've not made a final determination on how to proceed with the shipment. and you're not going to get in the hypothetical, but the pentagon, suspending arms deliveries to israel, and netanyahu vows to fight on without american support. also, we will under the case vigorously for them to be called in order to.