simple as a past, people started to take a closer look. sorry, i heard you brand new and then the boss and be spoken more in the new law sort of and i'm not really catches your law. you said only ukrainian screw driver on poland . morgan expensive cost involved by games and gallagher walters and 6. so close to begin to want what kind of boys going on this, but of course i majority of you create an organ, repulsing much less that accounts for because of the wall. never mind, it won't, because it will tell you just by the authority of the splittings, it's hard to believe. these are very clearly noticeable in the, especially those sit others will throw the money around the thumbs reliance on house funds. is it because these young people should go to have that's what's really happening in the concert. you know, the scope of work a try. i could just go back home with the, she's going to tell me the immunization advice. would you be half as cold as the authorized into lensky criminals? you would have to be still thinking folks to resign. yeah, we talked about the international then goals, me training and i'll forward to so doing full access. okay. relation to the

citizens kind of been kind of lost as it relates to the change on my speaking, at least about how people are being so nice for all the street. well, from being forced to take pots and meals, reaction to training for 2 weeks. and then i'll send, strapped to the drawings line, say on the phone. and you feel about alexander lucas shanker. but as a positive, every positive and this amount has been implemented in a very wise policy for many years. unless is to say is like so that we have a union, steve, russian bellows and you pay least together. no one claims anyone else. 73 is to 200 or 300 years ago. we also live together alone without kings, emperor, us with the bull is getting them with forced only do you think it is really possible. so to turn to those relations with all the slaves as well, are russians to do emotions and you create insults will be able to leave in a shared space as it was many, many years ago in peace without any kind of media as well. he's in the example of the united states as your service mission, close up of the nation with i think we need to get the this is lucy. i got some

great new offers poles, villa, many mobile homes that range offices younger than divide out. so we just need to clearly realize that if we will, they down be a structural damage portion of the huge rock. assume american and british politics ever a similar law, much on the, on this why they want to pay those against each other. they want single age and counseling, just we know sold way to fight for your life at the scene. the police search your services will be able to reach you here today and i'll be a little bit alert was feel safe. president lucas sancho cast about these people and the safety in poland. i probably wouldn't be around anymore. but i also this about, but it goes up. i mean, it's a nation that if you offered an identity, won't normally who would you become? would you choose a different name and story or you would like to get involved in politics to pursue all unity come and strength, availability on ukrainian souls and buy something you feel? i think that's a good to go through. such thoughts as are you away who you are and then go into a pause except a knife and with blush i would like to remain myself and also get involved in

politics the right, well that's gonna do it for me for now, but do stay with us my colleague, nicky aaron, will be in and less than the 30 minutes that was more of the day is talk new stories by the hello and welcome to cross ok. we're all things are considered. i'm peter lavelle. the 9th of may is a venerated day on the russian calendar in march the victory over fascism in europe in 1945. its tragic leaves, the collective west. just for golden dispatch,

the cross talking victory de, i'm joined by my guest, laudermill goldstein and providence. he is the chair of the department of slavic studies at brown university. in belgrade we have steven guides. he is a research associate at build raids institute of european studies adding be on and we crossed to alexander markovich. he is head of the 2 vote off institute in vienna . all right, tell him in cross lock rules and the fact that means he can jump anytime you want. and i always appreciate vladimir, you were born in the soviet union. so i want to go down history lane since this is actually a program about history, a very important history for millions and millions of people around the world, particularly in russia. what was victory day like when you were living in the soviet union as well? it was really, really, you know, joyful a holiday. you know, 1st of all, there was a whole kind of glossed out of, you know, may, these may 1st, may, 2nd, may,

may not. and so i really, it was like spring, everybody was celebrating and you know, there was, of course, so it shouldn't be just sweet moments. my father was in the war and you know, they always, you know, when people get together there was, remember those google keel that who were not there with them. but still the mood was a very 1st year. you know, no school. you're going to watch amazing parade and onto the 8 was you know, you can see, you know, people marching. so it was just a lot of a lot of lives, a lot of call lot, a lot of joy. you know, i, i don't know how many, you know, russians really at that moment solve and so, you know, and started to use that whatever. but it was like, we all knew, it was like, you know, bones that this is a very on foot. it'd be that there's a new it in your bone so you know, it that's come that's here again. and i'll talk about that later in the program

here. because i want to talk about how the picture day is being read defined in a very good way. my opinion, stephen, you know, in my introduction the collective west is primarily overwhelmingly kind of forgotten this day, this victory day on may, 9th, why is that? okay. i mean, it is, they don't want to give credit to the soviet union slash russians and they have a fast, isn't problem. now in the west though, there's a lot of different avenues we could discuss when we talk about the app. if be in the west, i think that the george or little gave it was the answer. it is 1984, the ministry of truth is creating or recreating the boss. so that is why i, because of the currents of political issues or political agendas, they are a minuscule in the middle of the soviet union. they don't want to mention that almost 30000000 a soviet, most the russian citizens died,

were killed or died liberating europe. and especially now that we have this a revival of naziism in the, in the west, in general, but especially on the european content, the 1st and started with the eastern europe. but then it spread. uh so uh, if uh the rumors are to, uh, the symbolism of the victory, the russian flags, the soviet flags. would it be banned in, in berlin for the 9th of may. but we'll see. anyways, uh there is uh is uh, a uh issue that they have a problem with and also uh well when we talk about historical revisionism, it is germany that is not as k that came out with a resolution that wants the slander ser herbs. and it was a germans who during world war 2 shots, thousands of. busy not only citizens,

but also a small children, especially in the, in the safety of crowd we have, that's during world war 2. so uh, now historical revisionism his game to outrages levels as well. it's very interesting. alexander, when i was a young man, one of the most impressive documentary is i've ever seen up it up until today was the world, the war was made up by the b, b, c. and um, it was a brilliant, brilliant series. it primarily because it had witnesses, people that were actually witnessed the events making these kind of document present were very difficult because it get really, you don't have witnesses that it's essentially been washed away. it's not on youtube anymore. when it was a got, it had millions of hits, it was one of the, like i, i believe one of the greatest documentary is ever made. but there was a 2 episodes in that documentary series that was, i guess you would say today was sympathetic to the soviet union. that's for bowden

today. alexander. well, yes, um. as i mentioned before, there's a certain political trends in the west which actually tries to diminish the soviet casualties. and um, also the soviet contribution to actually defeating fascism, the media and just story all christy. and therefore of course, for example, if you look at the change of the official narrative from the west, if you could somehow get the impression that it was actually not the soviet union fighting against hitler and the nazis and was a 2 bots that there was some kind of ally of national socialism and fascism. yeah. instead it was just because of the united states of great britain that's fast as and was defeated, which is of course, um,

totally wrong. but since you don't all have this western um war of aggression against russia and um, in this overall war, so ukraine of cause you're trying to keep an ice russia as much as possible. and um, this means also um, altering the history itself like um said before the ministry of truth is live and well again it seems and stuff for you. i have this strange kind off um yeah. just to re policy um going on. no. the only drum any way or no, uh, no longer logs through so. so if you have flex on the um associates they are for 3, but uh where um, drum and media for example, also try to portray um, letting me put in um as the 2nd the other fiddler. um yeah. us back in an hour or it's all a while the same germany that you're talking about is arming a fascist big battalions in, in your, in ukraine. so it, absolutely. germany has

a lot to it has a lot to answer for particularly today. okay. let me, you know, one of the things that we've seen here is that when we look at the narrative of the destruction, the passes in europe, you have a, yeah, the hollywood version, saving private. ryan, the wars over after the invasion of normandy, apparently to hollywood. and then you have this very despicable trend of equating this, the soviet union. and nazi germany is being the same thing. both are historically obviously wrong. vladimir, of your history as being the user. and unfortunately in the, uh, it was very, you know, very successful campaign. i guess in the west, even though we know by the side is when do they ask a french people arise after the war? every contribution in the rush or what would be like are considered like the main contributor to the victory you move forward. 17 years ago, you know, the same ball and all of a sudden the same french people say that, you know,

united states, uh, i main contributor and i tell you are a complete exec. i don't need any of those from my teaching to the where it is you and of course, that he hello places on the russian culture. and my quality historian says to the students, they went to talking about war 2. and that's russia, one, the war students look like with a big surprise. yeah. and he said, yeah, yeah. and brings always going to what was concrete, historical data that they had, you know, okay. you a young students that listen to that, then i am hanging out with my friends all university indicated. and i just refer to the zip is all they looked at me was of course, americans wonder what are you talking about. so these are them making things up as you know, i know i know this of that so, but i would add that it is done for a very particular and the new failures. and the reason, because if you're going to i is that the russians, lois, so many people in the, you know, such and such

a major and you're bound to take the country and it's interest very seriously. you're bound to take very concerns about national security. or, you know, the safety of the board us see if you, if you think that they didn't do it as a value, i don't think it was due. and i think it's really kind of funny how the whole narrative shift event. you know, now 1st of all, take the interest of jewish people serious me. they remember there was a photo of course. so this is taken seriously. but the last of forget about this is kind of really peculiar. so, you know, we won't bends over backwards to understand the drama. still understand that it isn't that there's a legitimate, that's what it was. you know, russia, what about the national goods and they've been, the board has been crossed again and again and again. but in reading your being forces, who is there? jessica, because i didn't was the russian because initially they just the boy diminish it and, and just into and, you know, look, eyes on the gate, tweet now. russians do not. yeah, you know, is stephen the,

the historical fact is that the, the, the red army liberated all of the death camps and other camps as it moved west. that history is being forgotten to steven. exactly. i mean, if you ask people, i remember personally, i was starting in the united states and i have these conversations of we were to and, and who was the greatest continued contributor. i was obviously saying it was the soviet union and people would laugh. i mean they think that the. busy or was one in the pacific. in bibles, the some islands withdrew, but with japan and normandy and the rest is a, is some blurry picture to doesn't really exist, especially the uh, the story with the death camps. deborah. oh, liberated by the soviet union. and this is why the holocaust ended when the red army entered these places. so up until they

were liberated the, the factories of that were working. and this is one of the, the low st gray this the she, when he, terry and achievements during the war. but it is the only one of the episode, and it is not only not recognized. uh, but uh, it seems that the sanctions, b, c of west against russia are going to be on today's moment. however, uh, by doing this uh, the mainstream west or history other fee has isolated itself as the west has in general. well, what? well, what they do before we go to the rank here, they celebrate nazis and canada. we saw that. ok, we saw that in the end, and that's not going to be the end of a gentleman. i'm going to jump in here. we're going to go to a short break. and after that short break, we'll continue our discussion on victory de state without the

take a fresh look around his life. kaleidoscopic isn't just a shifted reality distortion by tell us a tired division with no real live indians. fixtures designed to simplify will confuse who really wants a better wills, and is it just as a chosen few fractured images presented as 1st? can you see through their illusion going underground? can the welcome back across stock. were all things are considered non peter roosevelt's remind you were discussing victory day

the okay, let's go back to alexandria, indiana. one of the interesting things here. since we're talking about history and history all graphy and we look at the present day, the proxy war that is being waged against russia using ukraine. if we think back into 1941, when the soviet union was invaded, nazi germany had an array of a co, a coalition of countries it occupied. it was allied with and it was a collective west, not the united states yet, but in the collective west, under the rule of the nazi germany invaded the soviet union. now let's go up to today. russia is facing a wide coalition of western countries, almost exactly the same ones. and it stand off over you crate a lot. you know, if you say that, that's all that's heresy for a lot of people. because, you know, with, with russia is saying, and bottom air is already touched upon and, you know,

wave after wave. where is of invasions, where do they come from? they come from the west is still head alexander, i'm, yes, exactly. i just recently watched um the great movie um, alexander mer steep. i said okay, um eisenstein, which actually premier then 19 um, i guess it was 1941 um, shortly before the start of operation. but most of the not situation of the soviet union, which actually had this very topic that's there is a long history of westland aggression against russia. of course, coming from the west to russia. it because the west is not able to accept russia as the other as a different civilization. right. which is actually not itself and therefore it's, yeah, regularly you could say, tries to destroy russia. i'm to obliterate it, to colonize it's um,

to carry the parts as we could see in all these plants about the so called the color nice ation of russia. and unfortunately, there are also these plans of exterminating russian people as we could see. not only during can i put on aust bucks also during the sea of puts machine since 2014 events in odessa. what's happened in on boss was domestic. there's there and yeah, that's what of course the west somehow tries. um, so that let's actually this very fact that it's, that there is a long history also, aggressions coming from the west to russia instead of course, russia um is not so elucidating um or insane if it says that it has um, a needs for secure to guarantees by the west, the test a need for peace in eastern europe and for security zone. and out of course del, for this 3 maybe is not directly repeating itself, but it's rhymes. as i said,

there's, i can see there's a real time running from the middle. it shows exactly what an opposite russian until now, no doubt that there is a pattern here. vladimir, it's very interesting. again, if you look at it, if you want to take history seriously, russia, but we to imperial russia, what we called russian today is the only major land mass. the western powers never call in ice. and that is what they see is a missed opportunity and they, they, they haven't given up on it. they russia is the only one that stands out there was not colonized by an outside or vladimir. yeah, it's a unique civilization. there is a really good historian marshal ball and he wrote about that. if you said yes it's and indeed is that, you know, a peculiar uh, unique cautions organization or reach it didn't fall on the other risk than it's x . you know, you can look for either, you know, for most of it is age and older minds, indians and mexicans and training as they all were crossed by the west. and it was

shaped in so that they own the image and likeness as opposed to roger who deals with usually goes into the mendez efforts to defeat a, you know, a very innovative. and i would say with an ad to alexander, you're not allow alexander in the near ski film these uh, a tony, it's nice which in rate is, you know, arise lands that are in your state. if it is all century, they were actually related to this for the old, a west the night school in the 4th grade on their way to edward jerusalem. they actually 6 comes on general, but yeah, they just drop this off the ropes in house and that is what they did. so these are the say, really, you know, say we were getting and there also like sort of facility just to do the, just the mention over i should as well because it actually is you need to cancel the fees. jayenne is sort is ation religion. so somehow the risk feels very

uncomfortable. it was because the oldest invoice amount over sources and as a model. yeah, i'll do it. and, and it was like, you know, a very big interface. the more so for the way us to wrap and they continue to do that. so it's a lot of noise based on what you expect and that's paranoid, you know, saving it again, broadly speaking, if we look at what would many would called the greatest hills of the, of the 20th century fascism in for many people, communism fair enough here. but they're all what, those are western ideas, western ideas, they came from the west. unfortunately, it took cold in it, and i'm just expressing my opinion in russia. russia is recovered from that to moultrie, his experience. but these are western ideas that russia is had to confront. uh yeah, that is, that is uh to uh, i'd like to go back to the the issue of broader here a be a west of your vehicle is as a guest against russia. this is in a way,

a unique situation that we are witnessing now that the west is almost completely united or completely united against russia. but it was not the 1st time all the 19th century, there was a tried me of war. uh, look at the quotation of a broader position of western countries, but also before that the napoleonic wars, we always see it as a russians versus the french. but in fact, the french army goes listed. busy of many odder western european peoples and, and small armies that were and there were joining. so in a sense, there is a cycle, a historical cycle of the component that you mention ideas. these all is also very important because russia was um, for last 300 years, always. unfortunately, it's some kind of a, a cultural, he's a pre, uh, looking at the wise yes. and they don't get affected by the ideas that the crowds

that eventually be almost legal to it. and the, i think the, this is a peculiar moment to the sense that russia is finally awake. and, and i don't think that they will repeat the same pattern that started somewhere with the reforms of peter degrades. and the russia is basically, i think, coming back to itself. well, yeah, in and out as stephen, i to add to that i agree with you. absolutely. the difference is russia is modernized itself, it's not it. and it disadvantages. like it was before, particularly as you brought up the cry, me in more, alexandra, i've lived here for 26 years and i studied european in russian history in a graduate school. and, you know, i always looked at the, the victory day may, 9th is during the soviet union is a legitimizing factor for the communist party. they won the war and they should get the credit because they are not i, i'm not going to take away from that. but i think now in the 21st century

a we've already touched upon in this program. this is also a separate celebration of values and i would say conservative values also go ahead . alexander. yes, um i would agree with you sense of course the great petra to the board in russian historiography is um, connected with the defense of some other lines with the defense of russian celebrated tea and also of course with the defeat of fascism and definitely worse to defeat or from western aggression against russia. and yeah, that far, of course it's not only an important day for russia, but for yeah, most european countries. yeah, definitely. also because of mens the ends of fascist months, there may be also ordinary germans and austrian. so suffert's from the consequences of the defeat of fascism. but i guess that's the wherever the feet of

fascism itself is an important event. because unfortunately, neither communist smaller conservatives and all students in germany were actually able to topple the hitler regime and fascist and by themselves. so they needed this help from the outside. otherwise, we would maybe still, if under, fast as through and i guess therefore it's also an important day for europe itself . yeah. well, why do i mean it should be, but it's not okay. because, you know, you've been on this program many times and i always appreciated, but this is also a culture or the west. pres, rejects rushes culture and its attitudes and its value. so that's part of this proxy war against russia. vladimir the yeah, i mean is a, is there is it, you know, we can order a weakness of, as of recently, you know, improve all by the, what in new grade are the blue? see it's a performance is a can. so all the form is a can so in our i so it's good to you but it, it, yeah, it was like,

i remember was reading, they took a moment usually they wanted to teach a course on, on the say, yes, you that you, when they came up with the idea, maybe it's not, that's like what do you mean is not the time this is like, well classic list. everybody benefits. you know, i did, you know, i told this they ask you about the semester students. this is do the, as they open up the hippie, you know, we have one of the most popular courses in our department and other this semester it was wonderful story. you know, this is like universal list and it has to be any customized and appreciate it. but i would also say that to us also have to appreciate, you know, a western, but it is there's, you know, we should just didn't munitions. i mean, be the great was, was a very wise guy, income level guy. he was 500 or i can use it to deal with the west to fly. the wednesday has to have more than the more than this one that so why don't you have to be very kind of creative in this not, not, you know, not slave isley beach interest in practice, which priority do not walk in, you know, originally supposedly different piece they talk to a different culture,

but to use them for a magically there's absolutely nothing wrong with it. and i think i would say that, you know, with some smart west and this extra understanding. and i know all the, you know, the caller id, or for example, sustainable agriculture was really actively developed by a russian, you know, scientists, and i know it just grew up working. he was like very much, you know, very much pretty do it. and they and they know that and they're not. and so i think the rest of the prism, logical as it should be problematic doing well, you know i, i will what we've run out of time. i just, i wish the westwood act on its words. you know, like, except diversity, they don't accept diversity, but it has a russian present characteristics with it. gentlemen, thank you very much. that's all the time we have one, i think may get some problems be in it. and in belgrade, and of course i want to thank our yours for watching us here at archie. so you next time, remember process the the,

the method that should play, you think he said that then you can see a facade indeed. and therefore, the window at assuming that the to look into intermedia, the cairo is the dimensions of the photo i'm seen. send the most of the to the,

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