on more for yourself, and while ukrainians continue losing their lives, trying to escape conscription the hash tag. i am a draft. dodger has gone viral across social media after ukrainians. lucky enough to leave the country started posting videos of their lives abroad. natalia and war correspond to and rarely ged says the patriotic sentiment and ukraine is declining with people questioning why they are dying for the interest of lawmakers. and yeah, there is not abstract eltic sentiment in ukraine now for, for, from the people from the people from the area of people for the ukraine. young man, now it's may be a good. the cheap disease soon varies the life of for crossover and 30 romania illegally. that's a try to survive on the bulk of see it was a one time my make any to view with you can hear words prisoner and you said me, i was on the front line. i make my do to for the account, a bucket where are,

where are the people that make these the cesium? what are the people who create these war? they are in key if they are sitting at to him at the office with or calling for us and we need to go to the front for the friends. they're interesting. these ones are good, i think their view, and i think the now people like these, the people that are starting to escape when you are of the they are thinking the see why i need to die for defend. the interesting of these 2 may occur in kia that's our leaving. we thought com 410 that they created with the big door. practically holly 67 protestors had been arrested in armenia as crowds. paul, for the country's prime minister to resign. simmons traders in the capital city of europe, van blocks the highways to a ron, and the rushes arm of the or city law among several other streets,

or tests have been ripped the country for over a month spark by the armenian government, agreeing to give up territories bordering with as or by john this, it was our to international up next on going underground of the war on hash absent or tom stands, his guest discuss why digital currency is in danger of reading about the the i'm action or 10, say welcome back to going underground broadcast to go around the world from the u. a. one of the 1st name to

a nation that's against the greatest you. and that's about times julian assigned was not to assassinate him, but to use paypal on the internet to prevent people power organizing to donate funds to. we can leeks before the british, tortured him. control of money is a determinant feature of imperial, a gemini, and now from palestine to venezuela, to iran, korea rusher, and china native nations use money sanctions to impose your political will, but with the growth of so called cashless society crypto in fintech. is it the end of new york on edge amount of power of money? it's k y c and swift banking systems that can easily be bypassed. and what about how this is happening while actually in nature of countries fintech and it's b r is used to impose totality. irene control of of populations red scott is the older 5 money cash cards, crypto and the wall for our wallets. and the heritage guide to global finance hacking the future of money. you joins me now for bill in germany. thank you so much read for coming on before we start talking about the money gold. uh, your, your view on crypto given that they need to use is very diverse. it's been very

volatile and it's meant in the past year or so, nato nations don't seem to be able to sanction those they wish to sanction, to sanction labor. because cook joe big going bypass is washington. so yeah, being kept a printer has a kind of be used as a sort of um i guess a kind of like a side. so to the global monitoring system. i think when i'm, when i'm think about big coin and stuff like that, it's a, a see it as a kind of system of digital collectibles that can be moved around the show if you're in a place that's being spanks and you can use those digital to those to bypass the banking sector and so on. but they're highly volatile, right? so that it's, it's the, it's, it's not an ideal um, alternative to the existing monetary system. but they do form a kind of parcel council to the existing ministry system. just not a very good one. and of course national security agencies could be causing the

volatility as of people a suspect. but interesting me, you said that in nature countries i suppose is what you meant. crypto is malign in the way that it teaches children of bad things about what money is. yeah, well, i mean, vermont is does kind of like a reality to affect windows and then offensive see, right. so the reality is quite simple. the reality of the client is actually what they're as us as the sky. so those digital collectibles that have limited edition, the digital objects that can be moved, moved around grass, and that's fine. um, they have prices, they get price on the market, right. the fence to see is that there a competing monetary system to the us dollar. okay. um and so uh, and in order for that promotes is all of those objects to convince people that

these are a alternative to be used. all of that. the results are a lot of conservative minus the ideology, dr. step to present these things as being digital gold and always going to stop and that often those results and then throwing on lots of tribes, civil stare, etc. essentially, right? the idea that money should be a constrained thing, right? it shouldn't be like a commodity, and that's pretty much what market stocks are and people like that used to use windows saying, oh, we can't afford to lose money as a constrained commodity. so we got the cuts privatize everything, and stop spending on health care and stuff, spending an education, right, because we can't find the money. right. so this whole idea that money is a constrained commodity is very classic part of austerity thinking. and if you're thinking about how you train the teenage, i just think like that, um, that kinds of are a good way to do that, right? i mean, the great thing about that is that a single tennessee doesn't actually challenge the existing monetary system, right?

so uh you want to think about it as being like a kind of and it rides on top of the existing monitoring system rather than bypassing it. okay, so the net effect actually all promotes in the ideology is that the conservatives of the normal monitor uses the vs. money system get more powerful because their message is being promoted via that by. i don't know if that makes little sense knowing that and of course your background is not to apologize and a financial broker who nearly ended up leaving brothers just ahead of the crash. clearly evident there and what you're saying that and, and i think you written about gold. this missed the how gold is taught in schools within the media. have john list to use it as the hey, day of money when it wasn't the new liberal model of money you,

you smash that to pieces? well look, i'm not like a academic holostar and not specializes in talking about every at every era of the monetary system, right? there's a lot of new on some stuff. you can spend hours talking about the things. but the most important to realize that the, in the modern imagination rides, a lot of conservatives will stick sites upon an imagined history of gold rush. and the political use of that is to create the idea that what money should be as we get, as i mentioned, is that's, that's the right idea. it should be a constrains commodity that's in the hands of credit. so is essentially right. and the 2 students dilute the power, right? so the whole kind of story about gold being the cost of money has a very strong conservative lineage. in reality, there are elements of gold using a pos of cost. you would have certain types of gold systems, but they never operated in the way that's a lot of a conservative economists would,

would claim it. they operate to. but of course, for example, a lot of nation states would actually define the value of go there wasn't sort of sell for parents to everybody and store them all, most every day congress wasn't done was go scratch was done with credit systems. so the main points to take away is that the kind of the imagination of gold as the sort of, uh, almost like platonic ideal of money is very problematic bribes. and this is, this is not to say that it wasn't a star to use. was certain things but so now that different affords to inter bank blending rates in london, the controls of coal, black. yeah. doesn't shoot me a serious political, political control of the goals system in the past that was never was imagined. so the q a commodity money like people want to squints imagine and very much in that fits when. well, they're drawing on that. imagine the history of gold to say in the past, money was to a, then it became corrupted. now we've made a cure again in this digital form. it's

a very kind of puritanical way of thinking about money. and it's also, it has started seeing that. sure. well, let's just get to a definition. and then of money, i should just say personally, you know, when i was 1st at the bbc in london, i go to loads of trouble. i was the only person on night shift when bearings banks went bust in the city of london. and i chose casino b roll pictures to illustrate voiceovers. and right from the top of the bbc they said, never use roulette tables ever a game. when talking about finance you however, use the analogy when defining money, what is money? the method level. um, if you're looking for the most kind of generic description, i would tend to say the money is a system of network access tightens um that enable us to access a network of human labor grads. um that's

a very broad way of speaking about it. um, and if you think about it, a lot of traditional ways of describing money, people imagine that there is something like value stored in money delta. but as being a store, all that value as if somehow the objects carries something a bit like, you know, blog or something. right? and the reality is that all of the value in an economic system is stored in human beings and natural systems, right? that's what everything comes from. the monitoring system is embed it into that a bit like a nervous system, perhaps if you want to use a biological medical. but the units of money essentially are costing claims upon our labor, right? so when you folding money, you're holding claims upon other people. this is what i'm saying is like a network access to it. and it's an access token and able to access people. that is a very generic description that does a lot of a lot more technical detail about how much the systems are actually constructed or ad. so the re, the construction of industry systems takes multiple different forms right now. the

way that the money comes in is constructed and as, as in the layers are at high rock layers using credit instruments in the core of that as a central bank. but the commercial banking sector right now. issues, lots of the, of the money that we use as well. i can go into the different layers if you'd like to. but the network password access code is token has similarities to casino chips . i know that in nato countries, the atm machines seem to be being reduced in lots of uh, in the city areas of just explain how the atm it works within the analogy of a caching in the chips. yeah. so what, but basically when you look at the construction of the model, mandatory system, um it has about at least 3 layers, right? so the base le, let's do a kind of a single base money. and i just collect le one money. it is from central banks rep

and those are pushed out and also sucked back in. right. so you push them out with the state suspending and stuck back in when there's tax ration occurring right in the public. that's the cash just right. so the, any form of you want to put a la one money that we can access. so states money is cash, right? then the 2nd la built on. so i'll put that, which is the bank exec to arrive in the mid the mid of for you want to think about if you understand that, as i use a casino, as a metaphor is to help people to cross that. so if you walk into a casino and you take cash and you handed over to the casino tasha, they're going to push out tips to you, right? and those zip, sorry, secondary form of money, privately issued rad. that is connected back to the cash. and you at the end of the not but the same thing, go back and reclaim the cash and woke out. so in the banking sector, how does medical works? do you want to think about it? when you handing of the cash to a bank, they're not storing the cash to you,

they taking ownership of it from, from you. and then they push out digital casino tips to you. so those units that you see in your bank account, or if you're looking on your online account and you'll find those units or digital casino, substitute up on the banking sector and what's called the cash list. society is when you basically become totally dependent upon those digital casino chips, right. and when you're closing down a cm's, right, and these countries and a lot of countries in europe, for example, especially in the e k, all that kind of bronzes and the atm they'll be sucked down as a bit like something down. the ability to exits the system to cache out of a system, right? so it's like going back to the end of a, not the casino and saying, hey, i wanna convert my chips back to cash. and then saying, sorry we, we don't do that anymore. you're not tapped it in our system, right? you cannot exit our system. one of the main problems of that medical, the of, of the casino is that to just do a new onto the bid. is that under normal casino?

so every unit of cash is connected to a to a ship, but it's not a bad thing. sacked to the banking sector has the ability to issue spa more digital casino chips and they're having cash reserves. and that's what sometimes called facts or is the banking, is that what's the money at basel these, these strange records in, in switzerland with an organized how much the ratios are. yeah, exactly. that's basically just explaining that. yeah, those are the different race size, the technical ratios and banking are basically about how you manage that. the risk that emerges from that process, right? so the banking side is pushing out huge amounts of the digital casino chips. and what sudden they're harvesting loan assets, right? so they're not pushing them out for nothing that they or so did they push them out on different circumstances of resolve you'd so now put a band, can you say get some cash on the deposit ticket?

they taking that for you and giving you tips because it could also be a person who's borrowing money. you turn up at a bank and say, can i borrow some money and they'll just push out new tips to read. what that's what they're dragging back from. you in return is a loan asset, right? so, and so what's happening is banks will construct these um balance sheets, whether it, whether it's pushing out these, these disputes, the little chips which are actually a liability to them. but they're ex, directing back assets and etc. and that puts them in certain types of risk. so those capital adequacy races and things and basel with their debates are basically about how do you manage the risk of this process, right? it's called eligible conflict. red scott, i'll stop you. the more from the or through kind of money. why the warren cash and dangers of freedom after this break the

the welcome back to going on the ground. i'm still here with bread scotto with real kind of money. why the war on cash and dangers of freedom? the bread we were talking about, those ratios, which they don't really talk about in the financial press of that much event. they leverage levels that eventually get bailed out. actually, as they did off the 20, always in fact, maybe want to personally just mention how when you are a university, they managed to recruit the so called brightest and best into these industries. and actually they, many of them may go into the media to just spread the wood. that cashless society

fintech, these great new changes are important then if you don't believe in them, you are a luddite. yeah, so when i was the university of goldman sachs and jp morgan and you know, maryland sort of those big players with a sort of hover around the lead universities and try to recruits and since the 5 is still the graduate. so please create the idea that what success meant as being part of the professional services industry. and that was around but, but i was in the financial sector on the time of the, the financial crisis. and interestingly, since the financial crisis, what happened around the time is actually big tech started to get more sexy grad. so actually the idea of what was uh, something to aspire to start to shift the next the other years since the financial crisis. a lot of those graduates, so to get attracted to the big tech companies or to defend tech companies. and the fin tech sector is actually the sort of rome with big tech needs, big finance,

right? with the auto mason, all the big finance. but in the early years, put pose the financial crisis of 2008 the student tech industry kind of look a little bit black. it was a kind of revolutionary democratization of finance, which is the very sort of typical tech narrative when they ultimate things. i talk about it as being a revolution. also may have some a democratized stuff. so, so the fence x, i had that narrative so. so so, so this situation right now is it actually big tech has become more powerful than big finance, but there certainly are joining together in various ways, right? via these been 2nd for structures and part of that supply deposits manifesto. you can also society right now, for example, has an attack on the cast system, right, because their minds, cash is a full of money that's very hard to ultimate. a lot of human beings really love the cast system and find it very useful. but big companies do not like the cash system because it con, automates it scratch. um and so, you know,

in the case of big tech companies like amazon, they will, lets me cannot operate with cash. but even, you know, the big supermarket, it's, you know, and big is big retailers and stuff they, they actually would prefer to work with a big tech companies and to deal with ordinary human beings, dealing with physical money. right. so the automation drive is part of corporate capitalism more generally, and does money. first thing in our society is a sort of ideological attack on the cash system. and they'll tell you that if you still want to use cash or somebody stuck in applause, there's something wrong with you. you're not, you don't believe in progress, which is another way of saying you don't believe in corporate automation of our society. is it different though, in global south countries where the development is not at this stage of late capitalism, they're catching up to a stage where they might be able to democratize. we spoke to pull the ecuadorian central bank or an adult, andrea, or as who said, uh, danny digital. uh,

national bank guarantees would be important. give people ideas of stakes in their societies rather than a private bank. yeah. so was, if you look at power the, the levels of some live strides that lives in the us and europe in new jersey, see a few in the china, right? so, so the actual narrative is set there, idea and a mini global south countries. when you have leaders who all have both to distort sort of the cool a doesn't where they will often actually parent that same ideology. and even though in global soft countries, often people actually know, for example, items that africa and south africa of electrical infrastructure is down for 4 hours a day, sometimes 6 hours a day. but the idea that you're gonna do decides everything is a fantasy, right? actually in this country like semester, you're interested in resilience, right? so things are cast actually really useful,

but still the ideology that comes from silicon valley will come the 8th through the, the, the consonant tribes. now inside of clay, it'd be honest in a different way. it could be the search in south africa and because they to yeah. so for example, in the african context, you'll have thoughts about digital suffering. so you're right, you'll have local and select those local politicians or debates, whether it's possible to the tax from the main. it's national system and so actually for some, some of autonomy to say the kind of we would not be touching the reliance but visa, mastercard. so you mentioned andreas arouse from from ecuador, is a friend of mine under as so that basically the global digital payment systems are controlled essentially by visa, mastercard and swift network. the us bangs federal reserve, the data at the sort of apex of that system. and if you're a country like equitable, you basically have no rights within that system. so if you're a us citizen, you can maybe dom on some rights in the, in the us with a visa or mastercard system, you can say, well i,

i don't want to be spite upon. but if you're in the ecuadorian citizen, you don't get those rights. so in that context, that's called a digital sovereignty becomes very important because you can say, well, actually with maybe forms on parallel system. all right? so it's a very hard thing to do. but that's, that's why, for example, under, as little promote the idea of a central bank digital currency in a place like equity. all right? and, but yeah, in that, what do you zoom out to look at the overall system? the power lines with a big us sense and at least and the sort of western world in a chinese that's. but when we, i know we were talking about casual society and, and the myth of convenience and the p r spin, do this way. does the own digital central bank currencies then? do they offer more national sovereignty over the economy of, for any democratically elected the government? because they're outside and could be outside of the washington?

good type of physically? yeah, i mean, it depends on how they're other implemented. i mean, even even actually in european countries and stuff is the 10 silver cbd, it seems to have the ability to counter the power of the banking set to remember that that, that sort of image i painted of the amenities as a model citizen, having multiple players and kind of, you know, there's a sort of central bank that ends all the commercial banks and what you called a, with the cash flows society is rarely when those commercial banks take over and you have to use their kind of digital casino tips or your payments now, many years ago, actually monday through a form groups started saying the commercial banking sector is too powerful. right? so we need to actually have a new form of digital states, money to compete with it. so hypothetically, if a central bank started is doing a new type of digital money or offer you an alternative to, to having a bank account. so, um, and so he is a, and this could have even in countries like the u. k. for example. imagine that the

bank of england started saying we're gonna offer an account that you're gonna use, and that's gonna compete with players like barclays, and h s b c rods. and that's what actually a central bank digital currency. it's hypothetically, could be. it's not where the w t o steps in or uh yeah, yeah. so, so the re, i don't even ask of what do you think this is against privatization and therefore i yeah, liberal a. so is it a radical version of c? b, c is definitely not popular among mainstream leads, right? as well. but that was a potential way of doing it in the past. as ideas you could actually have, there's almost like a public infrastructure on digital payments. i would compete with the private one. the reason why things like century bank digital currency are being discussed right now. there is not because of that radical vision. the reason is that during the pens and it goes a mass of dropping cash usage, as everyone was forced online and central bank and suddenly you realize that there's a potential financial stability problem that emerges when the cash system goes down

. right now that's a whole kind of structural problem in the monetary system. so they said maybe we need to sort of think about creating some kind of alternative to cash in digital form. but because the central bank is don't want a home the banking sector and don't want to compete with it too much. they're watering down all their cbc proposals. the site. if we do this, we'll get the private banks to kind of run it for us. and that was the stubs, but basically, so there's, there's multiple versions of the c, b, c, uh, of the design. it's gonna have the current versions being proposed in the, you know, you're sort of the european countries. i'm not very radical, but hypothetically, in us level south country, you could implement the cdc as some way to create a local digital infrastructure. because there might be even in the global south country, your local banks also going to be citing with visa and mastercard. right? cuz they gave me when to get into the international system. so sometimes your local

banks are working against your digital sovereignty as a way central bank, digital guy, and see more just of find these a year of elections. how do you think uh, the powers that be easily managed to persuade? electra to around the world will be voting this year. that the grocery shop analogy of how and economy works is the way the economy works. they seem to manage should be able to say there isn't enough money to pay for this. they will offer this in the manifesto. given that you are explaining something, even more complicated about the future of money. are you asking me how they will, the grocery store? i mean, this grocery shopping that there isn't enough money. does that make any sense to you when the yeah, well, i mean, i suppose though the traditional way they, they try to present themselves as being like a house. so that's a very classic steps for rides by to you that the government has like a is like

a household like any other and it has limitations on as budgets. right. which is not true. i mean the, one of the ways to think about this is to imagine like um, doing this medical for the works, but i can open the 3 versus squirrels. right? so squirrels run around trying to get the acorns, but the auxilary once the squirrels that take its acorns. right. this is very much like the states in the monetary system. we imagine ourselves, the squirrels, you know, try to get the money, trying to work hard to find the money. but actually the state this use money, it's like an oak tree. so when it's a gauge that's gonna mess the raid that is like a giant squirrel that also has like a limits to how much, how many knots it has. that's what kind of fantasy is a political fantasy. and it's also very useful political fantasy, post certain types of people who want to privatize stapo got public services, right. so there's a huge part about 6 to speaking about money as this is some kind of, you know, limited supply of knots. and that's classic austerity politics. right, so,

um and yeah, so that i don't know how positions will will do it this coming. yeah. but it's always a massive part of the electoral politics. um and yeah, there's a, there's also the big elements of it as well that that comes into it. and those of them scam hungry about inflation, right? to say if we try to employed so many people will be in slice. and so we've got to keep a bunch of people unemployed to keep that, keep that down. i don't know the answer your question, but it's a big question anthropologist economists who all logistically bred scott. thank you . all right, thanks a lot. that's it for the show for them, but we're bringing you new episodes every sunday and monday until then you can keep in touch. my last social media is nonsense that in your country and had to have channel going on the ground to be a normal. they'll come to watching you and all the episodes of going underground season the

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