a i'm action or 10 say welcome back to going underground broadcast to go around the world from the u. a. one of the 1st name to a nation that's against a great history on this about times julie and assigned was not to assassinate him, but to use paypal on the internet to prevent people power organizing to donate funds to. we can leeks before the british, tortured him. control of money is a determinant feature of imperial, a gemini, and now from palestine to venezuela. to iran, korea rusher. and china, native nations use money sanctions to impose your political will, but with the growth of so called cashless society crypto in fintech. is it the end of new york on edge amount of power of money? it's k y, c and swift banking systems that can easily be bypassed. and what about how this is happening while actually in nature of countries fintech and it's b r is used to impose totality. irene control of of populations. red scott is the old, have cloud money, cash cards, crypto and the wall for our wallets. and the heritage guide to global finance hacking the future of money. joyce be laughable in germany. thank you so much. read for coming on before we start talking about the money gold the your,

your view on crypto given that they need to use is very diverse. it's being very volatile and it's meant in the past year or so, nato nations don't seem to be able to sanction those they wish to sanction to sanction labor. because cook joe, big going bypass is washington. so yeah, being kept a printer has a kind of be used as a sort of i guess, a kind of like a side. so to the global monitoring system, i think when i'm, when i'm think about big coin and stuff like that, it's a, a see it as a kind of system of digital collectibles that can be moved around the show. if you're in a place that's being spanks and you can use those digital collectibles to bypass the banking sector and so on. but they're highly volatile, right? so that it's, it's the, it's, it's not an ideal of alternative to the existing monetary system. but they do form a kind of a partial council to the existing ministry system, just not

a very good one. and of course national security agencies could be causing the volatility. is of people a suspect. but interesting, the you said the in nato countries, i suppose is what you meant. crypto is the line in the way that it teaches children of bad things about what money is. yeah, well i mean, diamond is, does kind of like a reality to a bit condos. i'm in a fantasy. right. so the reality is quite simple. the reality of that coin is actually what they're, as i've described to those digital collectibles that have limited edition, the digital objects that can be moved, moved around, correct. and that's fine. um, they have prices, they get price on the market, right. the fence to see is that there a competing monetary system to the us dollar. okay. um and so,

and in order for the promoters of those objects to convince people that these are a alternative to be used. all of that the results are a lot of conservative minus the ideology, dr. step to present these things as being digital gold and always going to stop and that often those results and then drawing on lots of tribes, civil stare, etc, essentially, right? the idea that money should be a constrained thing, right? it shouldn't. um, it should be like a commodity and that's pretty much what market stocks are and people like that used to use when i was saying, oh, we can't afford to lose money, is a constrained commodity. so we got cuts privatized everything, and stop spending on health care and stop spending an education, right, because we can't find the money. right, so this whole idea of money is a constrained commodity is very classic part of austerity thinking. and if you're thinking about how you train that teenage, i just think like that's the kinds of very good way to do that. but i'm using the

great thing about that is that a single tennessee doesn't actually challenge the existing monetary system. right? so uh you want to think about it as being like a kind of and it rides on top of the existing monitor system rather than bypassing it. okay, so the net effect actually all promotes in the ideology is that the, the conservatives of the normal monitor uses the cf money system get more powerful because their message is being promoted via that. but i don't know if that made full so it's not even that. and of course, your background doesn't have to apologise and a financial broker who nearly ended up in leaving brothers just ahead of the crash . clearly evident there and what you're saying that and, and i think you written about gold this midst of uh how gold is taught in schools within the media. how john list use it as the hey day of money when it

wasn't the new liberal model of money. you, you smash went to pieces or well, look, i'm not like a academic co star and that specializes in talking about every, at every era of the monitoring system, right. there's a lot of new on some stuff that has been hours talk about that. i think that's the most important to realize that the, in the modern imagination writes a lot of conservatives will stick sites upon an imagined history of gold rush. and the political use of that is to create the idea that what money should be as we get, as i mentioned, is that step. so i to idea that it should be a constrained commodity that's in the hands of credit. so is essentially right. i'm interested in the loop to the power, right? so the whole kind of story about gold being the positive money has a very strong conservative lineage. in reality, there are elements of gold using

a positive cost. you would have a certain type of gold systems, but they never operated in the way that's a lot of conservative economists would, would claim it. they operate to the inverse. for example, a lot of nation states would actually define the value of go there wasn't sort of sell for parents to everybody and store them all, most every day congress wasn't done was go scratch was done with credit systems. so the main points to take away is that the kind of the imagination of gold as the sort of, uh, almost like platonic ideal of money is very problematic brands. and this is, this is not to say that it wasn't a star to use, but certain things to know that different affords to inter bank blending rates in london. the controls of cove left. yeah. does issue a misuse, political, political control of the goals system in the past that was never was imagines that a few a commodity money like people want to it's going to imagine and very much and that fits one well. they're drawing on that imagined history of gold to say in the past,

money was to a, then it became corrupted. now we've made it here again in this digital form. it's a very kind of puritanical way of thinking about money. and it's also, it has started to enact sure it, well, let's just get through a definition and then of money i should just say personally, you know, when i was 1st at the bbc in london, i go to loads of trouble. i was the only person on night shift when bearings banks went bust in the city of london, and i chose casino b roll pictures to illustrate voiceovers. and right from the top of the bbc they said, never use roulette tables ever a game. when talking about the finance you, however, use the analogy when defining money, what is money? the method level, if you're looking for the most kind of generic description, i would tend to say the money is a system of network access tightens um that enable us to access

a network of human labor grads. um, that's a very broad way of speaking about it. um, and if you think about it, a lot of traditional ways of describing money, people imagine that there are some like value stored in money dealt with. but as being a store, all that value as if somehow the objects carries something a bit like, you know, a blog or something. right? and the reality is that old value in an economic system is stored in human beings, a natural system, right? that's where everything comes from. the monetary system is imbedded into that. a bit like a nervous system, perhaps if you want to use a biological medical. but the units of money essentially are costing claims upon our labor, right? so when you folding money, you're holding claims upon other people. this is what i'm saying is like a network access token as an access, talking and unable to access people. that is a very generic description that does a lot of a lot more technical detail about how many pieces and so actually constructed or ad

. so the re, the construction of industry systems takes multiple different forms right now. the way that the money system is constructed is as an layers are as hierarchical layers using credit instruments in the core of that as a central bank, but the commercial banking sector right now. issues, lots of the, of the money that we use as well. i can go into the different layers if you'd like it to, but the network asset access code is token has similarities to casino chips. i know that in nato countries, the atm machines seem to be being reduced in lots of uh, in the city areas. and just explain how the atm it works within the analogy of a caching in the chips. yeah, so what, but basically when you look at the construction of the model monetary system, um, it has about at least 3 layers, right? so the base layer but to a kind of

a single base money. um and i just go like the a one money uh is from central banks rep. and those are pushed out and also stocked back in brands. so you push them out with state suspending and sucked back in when there's taxation occurring right in the public. that's the cash just right. so the new form of you want to go to la, one money that we can access. so states money is cash right? then there's a 2nd delay, a built on top of that, which is the bank expect to arrive in the mid the mid of for you want to think about you understand it as i use the casino, as a metaphor is to help people to cross that. so if you walk into a casino and you take cash and you handed over to the casino tasha, they're gonna push out tips to you, right? and those chip, sorry, secondary form of money, privately issued or at that is connected back to the cash and you at the end of the not but the same thing. go back and replay in the cash and woke out. so in the

banking sector, how does medical works? the one thing about it, when you handing of the cash to a bank, they're not storing the cash for you. they taking earnest a, but i'm from you and then they push out digital casino, it's up to you. so the units that you see in your bank account, or if you're looking on your online account and you'll find those units or digital can see that substitute up on the banking sector and what's called the cash list. society is when you basically become totally dependent upon those digital casino chips, right? and when you're closing down a gm's right, and these countries and a lot of countries in europe, for example, such as you can write all the kind of bronzes and the atm being set down as a bit like shutting down the ability to exits the system to cache out of a system, right? so it's like going back to the end of a night from the casino and saying, hey, i wanna convert my chips back to cash. and then saying, sorry, when we don't do that anymore, you're not kept it in our system. right?

you cannot exit our system. one of the main problems with our medical the of, of the casino is that to just do a new onto the bid. is that on the normal casino? so every unit of cash is connected to a to ship, put it up in our banking sector. the banking sector has the ability to issue spa more digital casino chips and they're having cash reserves. and that's what sometimes called facts. where is the banking? is that what's the very creative money at basel these, these strange records in, in switzerland with an organized how much the ratios are. yeah, exactly. that's basically just explaining that. yeah, those are the different race size, the technical ratios and banking, embarrassed about how you manage that. the risk that emerges from that process, right? so the banking sector is pushing out huge amounts of the digital casino chips and, and what sudden they're harvesting loan assets, right? so they're not pushing them out for nothing that they so that they push them out in

different circumstance as a result of utah. and i'll put a band, can you say get some cash, some deposit to you, they taking that for you and giving you tips. because it could also be a person who's borrowing money. you turn up at a bank and say, come bars of money and they'll just push out new chips to read what that's what they dragging back from you in return as a loan asset arrives. so, and so what's happening is banks will construct these um balance sheets with a, with a pushing out these, these disputes, digital chips which are actually a liability to them. but they're extract in back assets and what side. and that puts them in certain types of risk. so those capital adequacy races and things and basel with a debate. so basically about how do you manage the risk of this process, right. scroll down more complex. brett's got, i'll stop you there. more from the or through the crowd money. why the warren cash and dangers of freedom up to this break, the really modern pragmatic world of smartphones and tech upgrades parts. there's no

crafts and hand painted traditions of yesteryear seem to be fading away for take a step outside of the bustling metropolis of moscow and you'll find that traditional russian culture is still going strong. the valley are my little sister store because the model girl that i got you no problem seem to them out of the know nothing arguments us on the drive i showed my brother through. he was sudden to help people for a lo so now i never looked at searches as being the same. well, i guess i lost my list. that's the outcome of chicago police. it'd be gang chicago is like, can you get photos? i believe you really think your life as another crap thing. another one could have been a doctor. our nurse could have been the next president overtake,

keep losing people out here, the welcome back to going on the ground. i'm still here with bread scolded with real time money. why the war on cash and dangers of freedom? bread we were talking about those ratios, which they don't really talk about in the financial press that much about the leverage levels that eventually get bailed out. actually, as they did after the 20 o agent back, maybe when it personally just mentioned how, when you are a university, they managed to recruit this local brightest invest into these industries. and actually they, many of them may go into the media to just spread the wood. that cashless society fintech, these great new changes are important then if you don't believe in them, you are a luddite. yeah, so when i was the university of goldman sachs and jp morgan and you know,

maryland sort of as big players with a sort of hover around the leads universities and try to recruits and since the 5 is still the graduate, so please create the idea that what success meant as being part of the professional services industry and that was around but, but i was in the financial sector on the time of those, the financial crisis. interestingly, since the financial crisis, what happened around the time was actually big tech started to get more sexy grad. so actually the idea of what was uh, something to aspire to start to shift the next the other years since the financial crisis. a lot of those graduates, so to get attracted to the big tech companies or to defend tech companies. and the student tech sector is actually the sort of rome with big tech needs, big finance, right? with the automation of big finance. but in the early as part of pose the financial crisis of 2008, the spinning tech industry kind of look a little bit black, it was

a kind of revolutionary democratization of finance, which is the very sort of typical tech narrative when they automates things. i talk about it as being a revolution. oh somebody, some of democratized stuff. so, so the fence x, i had that narrative so. so so, so this situation right now is it actually big tech has become more powerful than big finance, but there certainly are joining together in various ways, right? via these been 2nd for structures and part of that part of products manifesto. you can also society right now, for example, has an attack on the cast system, right, because their minds, cash is a full of money that's very hard to ultimate. a lot of human beings really love the cast system and find it very useful. but big companies do not like the cash system because it con, automates it scratch. um and so, you know, in the case of big tech companies like amazon there will, lets me cannot operate with cash. but even a big supermarket, it's unknown big is big retailers and stuff they,

they actually would prefer to work with a big tech companies and to deal with ordinary human beings, dealing with physical money. right. so the automation drive is part of corporate capitalism more generally. and does money 1st thing in our society as a sort of ideological attack on the cash system. and they'll tell you that if you still want to use cash or somebody stuck in applause, there's something wrong with you. you're not, you don't believe in progress, which is another way of saying you don't believe in corporate automation of our society. is it different though, in global south countries where the development is not at this stage of late capitalism? they're catching up to a stage where they might be able to democratize. we spoke to pull the ecuadorian central bank or an adult, andrea, or as who said danny digital. uh, national bank guarantees would be important. give people ideas of stakes in their societies rather than private bank. yeah, so what it is,

if you look at power and the levels of some live strides that lives in the us and europe, and you just see a few in the china, right? so, so the actual narrative is set there, right? yeah. and a mini global south countries. when you have leaders who all have both to sort of sort of the cool a doesn't where they will often actually parent that same ideology and even live in global soft countries. often people actually know, for example of themselves, africa and south africa of electrical infrastructure is down for 4 hours a day, sometimes 6 hours a day. but the idea that you're gonna do, just as everything is a fantasy, right? actually in this country like semester, you're interested in resilience, right? so things are cast actually really useful, but still the ideology that comes from silicon valley will come the 8th through the, the, the consonant tribes. now, inside of clay, it'd be honest in a different way. it could be the search in south africa and because they to yeah.

so for example, in the african context, you'll have talks about digital suffering. so you're right, you'll have local and select those local politicians or debates, whether it's possible to the tax from the main. it's national system and to actually afford something of autonomy to say that we would have to not be touching the reliance but visa, mastercard. so you mentioned andreas arouse from, from ecuador, i use a friend of mine under as, so that basically the global digital payment systems are controlled essentially by visa, mastercard and swift network. the us bands federal reserve, the data at the sort of a peck. so bad system and if you're a country like equitable, you basically have no rights within that system. so if you're a us citizen, you can maybe dom on some rights in the, in the us with a visa or mastercard system, you can say, well i, i don't want to be spite upon. but if you're in the ecuadorian citizen, you don't get those rights. so in that context, that's called a digital sovereignty becomes very important because you can say, well,

actually with maybe from some parallel system. all right? so it's a very hard thing to do. but that's, that's why, for example, under, as little promote the idea of a central bank, digital currency in a place like equity. all right? and, but yeah, in the, what do you see mass look at the overall system? the power lines are the big us funds and at least and the sort of western world in a chinese that's when we, i know we were talking about casual society and, and the myth of convenience and the p r spin to persuade us on digital central bank currencies then, do they offer more national sovereignty over the economy of, for any democratically elected the government because they're outside and could be outside of the washington. good type of physically. yeah, i mean, the rates depends on how they're other implemented. i mean, even even actually in european countries and stuff is the 10 silver cbd,

it seems to have the ability to counter the power of the banking set to remember that that, that sort of image i painted of the amenities as a model citizen, having multiple players and kind of, you know, there's a sort of central bank that ends all the commercial banks. and what's it called with the cash flow society is rarely when those commercial banks take over and you have to use their kind of digital casino tips, all your payments. now, many years ago, actually monday through a form groups started saying the commercial banking sector is too powerful. right? so we need to actually have a new form of digital states, money to compete with it. so hypothetically, if a central bank started is doing a new type of digital money or offer you an alternative to, to having a bank account. so, um, and so is the, and this could have even in countries like a u. k. for example, imagine that the bank of england started saying we're gonna offer an account that you can use, and that's going to compete with players like barclays, and h s b c. right?

and that's what actually a central bank digital currency. it's hypothetically, it could be, it's not where the w t o steps in or uh yeah, yeah. so, so the reason that somebody saying this is against privatization and therefore i a little, it says a radical version of c, b, c is definitely not popular among mainstream leads or ads as well. but that was a potential way of doing it in the past. as i do it, you could actually have this almost like a public infrastructure on digital payments that would compete with the private one . the reason why things like central bank digital currency are being discussed right now. the word is not because of that radical vision. and the reason is that during the pandemic is a mass of dropping cash usage, as everyone was forced online and central bank. and suddenly you realize that there's a potential financial stability problem that emerges when the cash system goes down . right? now, that's a whole kind of structural problem in the monetary system. so they said, maybe we need to sort of think about creating some kind of alternative to cash and

digital phone. but because the central bank is don't want to harm the banking sector and don't want to compete with it too much. they're watering down all their cbc proposals, the site, if we do this, we'll get the private banks to kind of run it for us, and that was the, the stubs them. but basically, so there's been multiple versions of the c, b, c, uh, of the design. it's gonna have the current versions being proposed in the, you know, you're sort of the european countries. i'm not very radical, but hypothetically, and us level south country. you could implement the cdc some way to create a local digital infrastructure. because there might be, even in the global south country, your local banks also going to be citing with visa and mastercard, right? cuz they gonna be wanting to get into the international system. so sometimes your local banks are working against your digital sovereignty. as aware, central bank digital got into more just find these a year of elections. how do you think uh,

the powers that be these are leads, managed to persuade electro, it's all around the world will be voting this year. that the grocery shop analogy of how and economy works is the way the economy works. they seem to manage should be able to say there isn't enough money to pay for this. they will offer this in the manifesto. given that you are explaining something, even more complicated about the future of money you, are you asking me how they will the groceries are, i mean, this grocery shopping that there isn't enough money. does that make any sense to you when the yeah, well i'm, yeah. i suppose though, the traditional way they, they try to present themselves as being like a house. so that's a very classic step. so right idea that the, but the government is like a is like a household like any other and it has limitations on his budget, right? which is not true, i mean one of the ways to think about this is to imagine like um, doing those medical but it works. but i can open the 3 vs squirrels. right?

so squirrels run around trying to get the acorns, but the auxilary ones, the squirrels, that take its acorns. right. and this is very much like the states and the monetary system. we imagine ourselves, the squirrels, you know, try to get the money, trying to work hard to find the money. but actually the state issues money, it's like an oak tree. so when it's a gauge and it's got a mess, the raid that is like a giant squirrel that also has like a limits to how much, how many knots it has. that's what kind of fantasy is a political fantasy. and it's also very useful political fantasy, post certain types of people who want to know privatized, awful, good public services, right? so there's a huge part about 6 to speaking about money as this is some kind of, you know, limited supply of knots. and that's classic austerity politics, right. so, um and, yeah, so the, i don't opposites and we'll, we'll do it this coming. yeah. but it's always a massive part of the electoral politics. um and yeah,

there's a, there's also the big elements of it as well that that comes into it. and there's has been a scam hungry about inflation to say if we try to employed so many people will be in slice. and so we've got to keep a bunch of people unemployed to keep that, keep that down. i don't know the answer your question, but it's a big question anthropologist, economists zoo all. logistically. brad scott, thank you. all right, thanks a lot. that's it for the show for them, but we're bringing you new episodes every sunday and monday until then you can keep in touch. my last social media is not sense that in your country and had to have channel going on the ground to be a normal. they'll come to watch new and old episodes of going underground. so you said the the

same wrong just don't you have to shape house and engagement equals the trail. when so many find themselves will support. we choose to look so common ground the the eclipse studio. even if we pd what's the story page level, the use of solutions, stuff that's due to shifting. it's because she couldn't. miller will collect, look stupid to photocopy slip, to discuss the dizzy on this before they have to do is make sure that you create, excuse that our name is with historical stories of disposable cleaning. some doors not say that the which is done. conflicting the thoughts about the shooting of

centuries ago. your forebears name this country ukraine or frontier because your steps blink, europe, and asia, the ukrainians that become frontiersman of another story. the people will be able to sing the songs, whichever hides them. most of them there's always, you know, going to try to jump through most goals and would have been there. and i said, let them know that there's cool man, joe, probably then you post bouquets gift to 2nd the we'll have to upgrade the stuff on the the,

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