a wedding, a 175, used to go through this sentence all week. going to let that stay the i'm action or it has a welcome back to going underground broadcast to go around the world from the u. a . one of the 1st name to a nation that's against the greatest you on this about times, julia massage was not to assassinate him, but to use paypal on the internet to prevent people power organizing to donate funds to we can't leaks before the british tortured him control of money is a determinant feature of imperial to germany and now from palestine to venezuela, to iran, korea rusher. and china and native nations use money sanctions to impose your political will. but with the growth of so called cash list society crypto in fintech, is it the end of new york on edge monic power money?

it's k y c and swift banking systems that can easily be bypassed. and what about how this is happening? well actually in nature of countries fintech and it's b r is used to impose totality. irene control over populations red scott is the old of cloud money, cash cards, crypto and the wall for our wallets. and the heritage guide to global finance hacking the future of money. joyce be laughable in germany. thank you so much read for coming on before we start talking about the money gold. your your view on crypto given that need to use is very diverse. it's being variable in child and it's meant in the past a year or so, nature nations don't seem to be able to sanction those they wish to sanction to sanction labor. because cook joe big going, bypasses washington. so yeah, being kept a printer has that kind of be used as a sort of um i guess a kind of like a side. so to the global monitoring system. um, other when i'm,

when i'm thinking about bitcoin and stuff like that, it's a, a suit as a kind of system of digital collectibles that can be moved around the show. if you're in a place that springs to banks, and you can use those digital collectibles to bypass the banking sector and so on. but they're highly volatile, right? so that it's, it's the, it's, it's not an ideal of alternative to the existing monetary system. but they do form a kind of parcel counsel to the existing ministry system, just not a very good one. and of course national security agencies could be causing the volatility as of people a suspect. but interesting me, you said that in nature of countries, i suppose these are what you meant. crypto is malign in the way that it teaches children of bad things about what money is. yeah, well i mean, vermont is does kind of like a reality to pick one isn't in a fantasy, right. so the reality is quite simple. the reality of the client is actually what

they're as us as the sky. so those digital collectibles that have limited edition the digital objects that could be moved around graphs. and that's fine. um they have prices, they get price on the market, right? the sensor see, is that they're a competing monetary system to the us dollar. okay. um and so, and in order for that promotes is all of those objects to convince people that these are a alternative to be used. all of that the results are a lot of conservative minus the ideology, dr. step to present these things as being digital gold and always going to stop and that often those results and then drawing on lots of tribes, civil stare, etc, essentially, right? the idea that money should be a constrained thing, right? it shouldn't be like a commodity. and that's pretty much what market stacks are and people like that

used to use when i was saying, oh, we can't afford to lose money, is a constrained commodity. so we got the cuts privatize everything and stop spending on health care and stop spending an education, right, because we can't find the money. right. so this whole idea that money is a constrained commodity is very classic part of austerity thinking. and if you're thinking about how you train the teenage, i just think like that's the kinds of very good way to do that, right? i mean, then the great thing about that is that a single tennessee doesn't actually challenge the existing monetary system, right? so uh you want to think about it as being like a kind of and it rides on top of the existing monitoring system rather than bypassing it, i guess. so um, the net effect actually of promoting the ideology is that the, the conservatives of the normal monitor use those douglas cf money system get more powerful because their message is being promoted via that. but i don't know if that

makes more sense now than that. and of course, your background is not to apologise and a financial broker who nearly ended up in leaving brothers just ahead of the crash . clearly evident there and what you're saying that and, and i think you written about gold this midst of uh how gold is taught in schools within the media. have john list to use it as the hey, day of money when it wasn't the new liberal model of money you, you smash that to pieces. well look, i'm not like a economic co star in that specializes in talking about every at every era of the monetary system, right? there's a lot of new on some stuff. you can spend hours talking about the things. but the most important to realize that the, in the modern imagination rides, a lot of conservatives will stick sites upon an imagined history of gold rush. and

the political use of that is to create the idea that what money should be as we get, as i mentioned is that's, that's the right idea. it should be a constrains commodity that's in the hands of credit. so is essentially right. i'm interested in dilute to the power, right? so the whole kind of story about gold being the positive money has a very strong conservative lineage. in reality, there are elements of gold using a positive cost. you would have certain types of gold systems, but they never operated in the way that's a lot of a conservative economist would, would claim it. they operate to the inverse. for example, a lot of nation states would actually define the value of go there wasn't sort of sell for parents to everybody and store them all, most every day congress wasn't done was go scratch was done with credit systems. so the main points to take away is that the kind of the imagination of gold as the sort of, uh, almost like platonic ideal of money is very problematic grads. and this is,

this was not to say that it wasn't a star to use. was certain things that turned on that different forage to inter bank blending rates in london. the controls of coal, black. yeah. doesn't shoot me a serious political, political control of the goals system and the positives never was imagine. so the q a commodity money like people want to squints imagine and very much in that fix wine. well, they're drawing on that imagined history of gold to say in the past money was pure, then it became corrupted. now we've made it sure. again, in this digital form, it's a very kind of puritanical way of thinking about money. and as also it has started seeing that said, well, let's just get through a definition and then of money i should just say personally, you know, when i was 1st at the bbc in london, i go to loads of trouble. i was the only person one night shift went bearings, banks went bust and the city of london. and i chose casino b roll pictures to illustrate voiceovers. and right from the top of the bbc they

said, never use roulette tables ever a game. when talking about the finance you, however, use the analogy when defining money, what is money? the method level. um, if you're looking for the most kind of generic description, i would tend to say the money is a system of network access tightens um that enable us to access a network of human labor grads. um that's a very broad way of speaking about it. um, and if you think about it, a lot of traditional ways of describing money, people imagine that there are some like value stored in money dealt with, but it has being a store all that value as if somehow the objects carries something a bit like, you know, blood or something, right? and the reality is that old value in an economic system is stored in human beings and natural systems, right? that's way everything comes from the monetary system is embed it into that

a bit like a nervous system, perhaps if you want to use a biological medical. um, but the units of money essentially are costing claims upon our labor, right? so when you folding money, you're holding claims upon other people. this is what i'm saying is like a network access token as an access token and able to access people. that is a very generic description that does a lot of a lot more technical detail about how much the systems are actually constructed. right? so the re, the construction of industry systems takes multiple different forms right now. the way that the money to them is constructed is, as in layers, are at high rock layers using credit instruments in the core of that as a central bank, but the commercial banking sector right now. issues, lots of the, of the money that we use as well. i can go into the different layers if you'd like it to. but the network asset access code is token has similarities to casino chips . i know that in nato countries,

the atm machines seem to be being reduced in lots of uh, in the city areas and just explain how the atm it works within the analogy of a caching in the chips. yeah, so a, basically when you look at the construction of a model, monetary system, um, it has about at least 3 layers, right? so the base layer, but to a ton of the single base money. um and i just go like the a one money. it is from central banks rep and those are pushed out and also sucked back in. right. so you push them out when state suspending and suck back in. when there's tax rates and the guy grabbing the public, that's the cash test, right? so the new form of you want to go to la, $1.00 money that we can access. so states money is cash, right? then there's a 2nd delay, a built on top of that,

which is the bank we expect to arrive in the mid, the mid of us. all you want to think about, you understand it as i use the casino as a metaphor is to help people to cross that. so if you walk into a casino and you take cash and you handed over to the casino tasha, they're gonna push out tips to you, right? and those zip, sorry, secondary form of money, privately issued rad. that is connected back to the cash. and you, at the end of the not but the same thing, go back and replay in the cash and woke out. so in the banking sector, how does medical works? the one thing about it, when you handing of the cash to a bank, they're not storing the cash for you. they take the earnest a, but i'm from you. and then they push out digital casino, it's up to you. so those units that you see in your bank account, or if you're looking on your online account and you'll find those units are digital, can see that substitute up on the banking sector and what's called the cash list. society is when you basically become totally dependent upon those digital casino chips, right? and when you're closing down a gm's right, and these countries and

a lot of countries in europe for example. so as soon as you can read all the kind of bronzes and the atm being set down is a bit like something down. the ability to exits the system to cache out of a system, right? so it's like going back to the end of a, not the casino and saying, hey, i wanna convert my chips back to cash. and then saying, sorry we, we don't do that anymore. you're not tempted in our system, right? you cannot exit our system. one of the main problems of that medical, the of, of the casino is that to just to new onto the bid is that in the normal to see 9. so every unit of cash is connected to a to ship, put it up in our banking sector. the banking sector has the ability to issue spa more digital casino chips and they're having cash reserves. and that's what sometimes called facts. and where is the banking? is that what's the created of money at basel these, these strange records in, in switzerland with an organized how much the ratios are. yeah,

exactly. that's basically just explaining that. yeah, those are the different races. the technical ratios and banking are basically about how you manage that. the risk that emerges from that process, right? so the banking site is pushing out huge amounts of the digital casino chips. and in real time, they're harvesting loading assets, right? so they're not pushing them out for nothing that they so that they pushed them out in different circumstances of resolve. you'd so now put a band, can you say get some cash on deposit ticket. they taking that for you and giving you tips because it could also be a person who's borrowing money. you turn up at a bank and say come borrow some money and they'll just push out and you substitute brad. what they're, what they're dragging back from you. and it's are and as a loan assets, right? so, and so what's happening is banks will construct these um balance sheets with a, with a pushing out these, these dispute digital chips which are actually a liability to them. but they are stretching back assets in woodside. and that puts

them in certain types of risk. so those capital adequacy raises and things in basel with their debate. so basically about how do you manage the risk of this process? right? it's got, i was more complex. read scott, i'll stop you. the more from the or through crowd money. why the warren cash and ages uh, freedom up to this break the book, the strongest, limited shooting eclipse. to do that, even if we pd what's the story? ok. it's called level the use of solutions, stuff which i see to shift going. it's because she couldn't miller or collected stupid to photocopy slip on to describe the, the dizzy on this before they have to do. if they share the theme you create excuse, but our name is with historical stories with disposable cleaning. some of the,

with the doors, not say that the which is done. conflicting the thoughts about the shooting of centuries ago. your forebears name, this country ukraine or frontier because your steps blink, europe, and asia, the ukrainians that become frontier man, have another story. the people will be able to sing the songs, whichever hides most of them. there's always, you know, going to try to jump to the most goals. they would have been there. like some of the heavily beverages coleman joe played on the post. okay. skipped a 2nd to look at that. and i'm currently under the,

we'll go back to going underground. i'm still here with bread scolded with real kind of money. why the war on cash and dangers of freedom? bread we were talking about those ratios, which they don't really talk about in the financial press of that much them as they leverage levels that eventually get bailed out. actually, as they did after the 20 o agents, like maybe you want to personally just mention how when you are a university, they managed to recruit the circle, brightest, and best into these industries. and actually they, many of them may go into the media to just spread the wood. that cashless society fintech, these great new changes are important then if you don't believe in them, you are love died. yeah, so when i was the university of goldman sachs and i'd be morgan and you know, maryland sort of as big players would sort of hover around the lead universities

and try to recruits and since the 5 is still the graduate, so at least create the idea that what success meant as being part of the professional services industry. and that was around but, but i was in the financial sector on the time of the, the financial crisis. and interestingly, since the financial crisis, what happened around the time is actually big tech. started to get more sexy grad. so actually the idea of what was uh, something to aspire to start to shift the next the over the years since a financial crisis. a lot of those graduates started to get attracted to the big tech companies or to defend tech companies. and the fin sex sector is actually the sort of rome with big tech needs, big finance, right? with the automation of big finance. but in the early years, put pose the financial crisis of 2008 the student tech industry kind of look a little bit black. it was a kind of revolutionary democratization of finance,

which is the birth of the typical tech narrative when they ultimate things i talk about it as being a revolution. oh somebody, some of democratized stuff. so, so the offense x, i had that narrative so, so, so, so this situation right now is it actually big tech has become more powerful than big finance, but i certainly are joining together in various ways, right? via these been 2nd for structures. and part of that is a part of how this manifesto in our society right now, for example, is an attack on the cast system, right? because their minds, cash is a full of money. that's very, it's hard to automate. a lot of human beings really love the cast system and find it very useful, but big companies do not like the cash system because it con automates it scratch. um and so, you know, in the case of big tech companies like amazon, they will, let's, and he cannot operate with cash. but even the big supermarket, it's, you know, and big is big retailers and stuff they, they actually would prefer to work with a big tech companies and to deal with ordinary human beings,

dealing with physical money. right. so the automation drive is part of corporate capitalism. more generally and does money. first thing in our society is a sort of ideological attack on the cash system. and they'll tell you that if you still want to use cash or somebody stuck in applause, there's something wrong with you. you're not, you don't believe in progress, which is another way of saying you don't believe in corporate automation of our society. is it different though, in global south countries where the development is not at the stage of late capitalism, they're catching up to a stage where they might be able to democratize. we spoke to pull the ecuadorian central bank or an adult, andrea, or as who said danny digital. uh, national bank guarantees would be important. give people ideas of stakes in their societies rather than a private bank. yeah. so was, if you look at power and the levels of some live strides that lives in the us and

europe, and you just see a few in the china, right? so, so the actual narrative is set there. i get and a mini global south countries. when you have leaders who all have both the sort, sort of the cool a doesn't where they will often actually parent that same ideology. and even though in global soft countries, often people actually know, for example, items that africa and south africa of electrical infrastructure is down for 4 hours a day. sometimes 6 hours a day, right? the idea is going to do, decides everything is expensive, right? actually in this country like semester, you're interested in resilience, right? so things are cash actually really useful, but still the ideology that comes from silicon valley will come the 8th through the, the, the consonant tribes. now inside of clay, it'd be honest in a different way. it could be the search in south africa and because they to yeah. so for example, in the african context, you'll have thoughts about digital suffering. so you're right,

you'll have local and select. so is look about this and sort debates, whether it's possible to the tax from the main, it's national system and to actually afford something of autonomy to say that we would have to not be touching the reliance but visa, mastercard. so you mentioned andre's arouse from, from ecuador is a friend of mine under s, so that basically the global digital payment systems are controlled essentially by visa, mastercard and swift network. the us bands federal reserve there that they, that, that, that sort of apex of that system. and if you're a country like equitable, you basically have no rights within that system. so if you're a us citizen, you can maybe dom on some rights in the, in the us with a visa or mastercard system, you can say, well i, i don't want to be spite upon. but if you're in the ecuadorian citizen, you don't get those rice. so in that context, that's called a digital sovereignty becomes very important because you can say, well, actually we didn't maybe form some parallel system. all right? so it's a very hard thing to do. but that's, that's why, for example, under,

as little promote the idea of a central bank, digital currency in a place like equity. all right? and, but yeah, in the, what do you see mass look at the overall system? the power lines are the big us funds and at least and the sort of western world in a chinese, that's the one we, i know we were talking about casual society and, and the, the myth of convenience and the p. r spin to persuade us the on digital central bank currencies, then do they offer more national sovereignty over the economy of, for any democratically elected the government because they're outside and could be outside of the washington. good type of physically. yeah, i mean, it depends on how they're other implemented. i mean, even even actually in european countries and stuff is the 10 silver cbd, it seems to have the ability to counter the power of the banking set to remember that that, that sort of image i painted of the amenities as a man citizen,

having multiple players and kind of, you know, there's a sort of central bank that is all the commercial banks and what's it called with the cash flows? society is rarely when those commercial banks take over and you have to use their kind of digital casino tips that we have payments. now, many years ago to actually monitor a form groups started saying the commercial banking sector is too powerful. right? so we need to actually have a news full of digital states, money to compete with it. so hypothetically, if a central bank started is doing a new type of digital money or offer you an alternative to having a bank account. so, um, and so is this gonna be even in countries like the u. k? for example, imagine that the bank of england started saying we're gonna offer an a pounds that you're gonna use. and that's gonna compete with players like barclays, and h s b c. right? and that's what actually a central bank digital currency, it's hypothetically, it could be, it's not one of the w t o steps in or uh yeah, yeah. so, so the re,

i don't even ask somebody think this is against privatization and therefore, yeah, liberal a. so is it a radical version of c? b, c is definitely not popular among mainstream leads, right? so, but that was a potential way of doing it in the past. as ideas, you could actually have this almost like a public infrastructure around digital payment. so would compete with the private one. the reason why things like sense of bank digital currency are being discussed right now. the is not because of that radical vision. and the reason is that during the pandemic is a mass of dropping cash usage, as everyone was forced online and central bank. and suddenly you realize that there's a potential financial stability problem that emerges when the cash system goes down . right now that's a whole kind of structural problem in the monitoring system. so they said maybe we need to sort of think about creating some kind of alternative to cash in digital form. but because the central bank is don't want a home the banking sector and don't want to compete with it too much. they're

watering down all their cdc proposals that say, if we do this, we'll get the private banks to kind of run it for us. and that was the stubs them, but basically, so there's, there's multiple versions. obviously, if it is the uh, of the design, it's gonna have the current version is being proposed in the, you know, sort of the european countries. i'm not very radical, but hypothetically, in us level south country, you could implement the cdc some way to create a local digital infrastructure because there might be, even in the global south country, your local banks also going to be starting with the visa mastercard, right? cuz they give me, wanted to get into the international system. so sometimes your local banks are working against your digital sovereignty. as aware central bank digital guarantee will just find these a year of elections. how do you think uh, the powers that be these are leads, managed to persuade? electra to around the world will be voting this year. that the grocery shop analogy

of how and economy works is the way the economy works. they seem to manage should be able to say there isn't enough money to pay for this. they will offer this in the manifesto. given that you are explaining something, even more complicated about the future of money. are you asking me how they will? the groceries are, i mean, this grocery shopping that there isn't enough money. does that make any sense to you when the yeah, well i'm, yeah. i suppose though the traditional way they, they try to present themselves as being like a house. so that's a very classic steps. for rides, idea that the but the government is like a is like a household like any other and it has limitations on his budget. right. which is not true. i mean the, one of the ways to think about this is to imagine like um, doing those medical, but it works, but i can assure you versus squirrels. right? so squirrels run around trying to get the acorns,

but the auxilary once the squirrels that take its acorns. right. this is very much like the states and the monetary system. we imagine ourselves as squirrels, you know, trying to get the money, trying to work hard to find the money. but actually the state issues, money is like an oak tree. so when it's a gauge and it's got a mess, the raid that is like a giant squirrel that also has like a limits to how much, how many knots it has. that's what kind of fantasy is a political fantasy. and it's also very useful political fantasy, post certain types of people who want to know privatized, awful, good public services, right? so there's a huge baldwood 6 to speaking about money as this is some kind of, you know, limited supply of knots. and that's classic austerity politics. right, so um and yeah, so that i don't know how positions will will do it this coming. yeah. but it's always a mass of top of like 12 politics. um and yeah, there's a, there's also the big elements of it as well that that comes into it and,

and there's has been a scam hungry about inflation proud to say if we try to employed so many people will be in slice. and so we've got to keep a bunch of people unemployed to keep that, keep that down. i don't know the answer your question, but it's a big question. as of all, are just economists zoo all logistically. brad? scott, thank you. all right, thanks a lot. that's it. for the show for them, but we're bringing you new episodes every sunday and monday until then you can keep in touch. my last social media is not sense that in your country and had to have channel going on the ground to be a normal. they'll come to watch new and old episodes of going underground season. the

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