the the the we've said in previous episodes of this show that we can weeks co founder join assigned is probably the best known and most important whistleblower in the world. we speak about him and the legal case against him in the united states frequently. well, it appears that after nearly 15 years, there may be some light at the end of the tunnel. i'm john to reaku. welcome to the whistle blowers the . 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 the julian assigned as a hero to many people around the world,

but he has been a thorn in the side of washington policy makers. for years. 3 successive american presidents have had to deal with assigned with weekly weeks and with a fall out from wiki leaks. disclosures there have been different strategies 1st. it was clear that the united states wanted to stop assigned sooner rather than later. there was an attempt to have him arrested, for example, on sexual assault charges and sweden and assigned his fear was that even though the charges were false, he could then be extradited to the united states. he sought refuge in the ecuadorian embassy in london, where he was granted asylum, at least for a period. but then the c, i a worked with the ecuadorian government to bug the embassy for audio and video. they spied on a search and on every visitor he ever had, and they eventually convinced the dorians to expel him. the peace picked up significantly in 2017. when would give weeks publish the c, i is vault 7 documents. these were some of the most sensitive spying methods that

the c i ever developed. almost immediately the trump administration and the department of justice filed espionage charges against assigned. and then c, i a director, michael pompei o, told the media that wiki leaks was a hostile non state intelligence service. soon after that word leaked out from the c i a that it had discuss plans to either kidnapped or assassinate aside in london . and the justice department, as the british government to extradite him to the united states to stand trial, you face is 175 years in prison. donald trump was only president for 4 years, and in 2021 joe biden took over at the white house. many observers believed a deal could be negotiated, that would c, assange go free. after all, the obama administration had elected to not charge us on to the crime. it would be reasonable to think obama's concerns about prosecuting assigned, well protecting the 1st amendment to the constitution would be biden's concerns.

but that hasn't been the case. and julian assigned just struggle to avoid extradition to the united states now appears to be almost over. we're joined by jo loria, he's the editor in chief of consortium news founded by the late robert perry. and he's a former journalist for the boston globe. the wall street journal and the sunday times of london. joe, thank you so much for being with us. thank you, john for having me on again. joe, i'm going to cut right to the chase here. many of us were very, very surprised that british judges rule that julian has a right to appeal his extradition. but we still don't know what that end will look like. julian could still end up going on trial for his life here in the united states. he can come to some sort of a plea agreement with the justice department, but even that could amount to a prison sentence or a sentence of time served, followed by probably expulsion to us trailer or his extradition could be denied

and he could then be expelled to us trail. yeah. what do you think we're looking at here? is this all about the justice department saving face at this point or is the government really interested in imprisoning julian, massage and putting we can leaks out of business. and i think parts of government are really interested in imprisoning julian decides, reporting weekly, leaks out of business in that part, and particularly the agency that you used to work for john, i think that the c, i a is intent on getting him in prison. i think they've been a driving force for, from the time a pump pail. of course, when he headed the agency is 1st speech when he became director, was about we could leaks and drooling a song because they had just revealed the vault sevens of obviously china and materials. they were not classified materials, these hacking tools. apparently, you can't put online hacking tools that are classified, but it was an enormous embarrassment to the c. i a and, and they wanted their, their pound of flesh and i still think that they do it the age. i don't know,

of course, for sure. but something is still driving this by the prosecution of julian assange . and i think the c i a and the dnc, which also supplement embarrassing by the leaks their emails are behind it. so can they get him now? is the question, after all these arguments, after all the 9 grounds of appeal, after all the things that have been rejected by these british courts, the high court 1st, the district judge at the lowest level, who released him on health grounds? a condition of us prisons. she agree with everything about everything else, all the political k parts of this case, and even excuse the c i a, a spying on him and his conversation with his lawyers and even talking about poisoning him, which was already known at the point at, in some, in january, september 2024 years ago before the historic amount, which detailed even greater of what pump pay a wanted to do to drill amazons so they want them, can they get them?

what's left is this 1st amendment issue. the british law required, which is based on the repeating convention and human rights requires that someone being extradited must be able to have a guarantee of freedom of speech age and his defense and the u. s. cannot guarantee that. and that's why we're looking at a really appeal now that's going to happen sometime down the road this year, maybe early next year. that's the victory. the julian got on monday is going to be allowed to appeal. of course, he's still in jail, and biden wins in a short time because he's not coming to alexandria, virginia, and change during the presidential campaign. this was donald trump's case against julian, his arms. joe brock obama famously said that the case posed what he called a new york times problem. and so his administration didn't charge julian with a crime, but donald trump did. i think that just about everybody expected joe biden to walk away from this case when he became president. but he didn't. you double down?

why is that? was this call actually made by the c i a and the rest of the intelligence community job. i'm in december of 2010. this was around the time of the major release was by weeks and weeks on meet the practices vice president job. i was asked directly, will you prosecute julian to such an by who said, look, if we can prove that he actually took part in stealing the government documents. we're looking at it. but if we can, if you just passively received documents like a journalist as then, you know, we probably can't the indictments and this was the argument they gave in the yeah, the new york times, probably because the new york has published the same materials week and weeks that how could we indict julian started and not the new york times for the same material? they also have just received that material the new york times. and so did julia sod receive that material from chelsea manny. they've been trying very hard to pin on

assigned a hacking charge that he went in there and stole these. got them documents himself that they really could not do that in the 1st indictment because 1st of all, it says chelsea manning had legal access to everything. she least 2 weeks because she have all the top security clearances that she needed to get access to it. what she did to break the law was to go against her non disclosure agreement and this and broke the espionage act. because she disseminated that to a person that wasn't authorized to have that julian, so we keep weeks. but if you look at the, by the administration gets, uh, an obama started the obama ministration binding as vice president. they get a lot of credit for now, and i've given them credit in the past for not dining room because they realize they had this new york transfer. but when you look back, they actually the f, b i under obama, and in 2011 cooked up this scheme in iceland, where there was a cyber attack coming that was going to attack all the infrastructure of iceland

and the f b. i can come to iceland to help protect iceland. so the iceland, the government invited the f, b i and. and when they got there, the interior minister at the time who we interviewed on. and you're on that show john, cuz i just watched it recently. you were on that show with the former during this device with and he explained how he began to understand that this was the fake threat that the f b i cooked up, they've got there so they can frame julianna's sondra picked out week leaks and they needed the cooperation of the ice then the government to they were pinning this cyber attack that was going to destroy isis infrastructure on julian assumption weeklies. and they got unemployment couple of and for me to try to pin that on. and when he found out about it to keep them, i'm saying all this because the by ministration tried hard to get him please, and they have 3. i there at the eyes to where he was living, to get julie massage, they failed, then it became the new york times problem, right? they didn't have the goods. they came up in that he stole the documents that he act . and that's the problem. at that time for the wife now, when,

when the ca came in power start wouldn't know. trump came to power history, a chief pompeo. volt 7 came out and that sense the c i a and then there was also the dmc leaks which heard hillary clinton. so i believe what you question is, why doesn't why didn't by drop this case? like he said he would have back in 2010 when they can't prove that he took part of stealing the document. why didn't buy them when it became president then duty said that he that they were going to do and they did do when he was vice president. because of the c i a and the d. n. c. i don't think they will let him sleep one night. i think that he's they, they would be incense, he would really have hell to pay from the his own party, which he's the head and the see. i hate because they're angry. not because of anything that they were able to charge us on with nothing in the environment is about volt 7 or the dns you weeks. the and see leaks, obviously not class,

but then i even government documents. and the last several weeks worked when i classified materials either. so they, he's, he can do it or he could if he had guts. but that's job i'm talking about here. you'd have to stand up with a c, i a and the dnc and orals, hillary clinton, people in hillary clinton, herself probably likes to blame everybody but a self losing that election. and amongst the people she blames a lot is really in a sense then that is probably the best explanation that i have ever heard. so concise, really terrific, joe, you and i both believe strongly. the julian assigned as a journalist and even if people out there don't believe that they have to acknowledge that he's a publisher. you've been a journalist at major print outlets for decades, and you're now the editor of consortium news. what if that's what a successful prosecution of julian assigned to have on the media? should all journalists be worried about falling a fall of the espionage? i know, i think it's already had a big effect on journals. and right now he's been in jail for 5 years in

a maximum security prison in london here in london, where i am a, that's already something a huge message out there. you publish stuff that reveal the crimes of these people . they're going to get you. and they will stretch out this expedition process as long as possible, and even if they don't get an expedited, he's paid an enormous price these last 5 years of his life plus 7 years in the embassy before that. but at least then you have visitors. and he did his work, the last 5 years he's been in this prison, he's obviously suffered type of logically and physically. and one of the most of us will be dead by now. he's an incredibly resilient human being. so he has been punished. and i think that sends a message right there to jonathan view, try to publish this. this is what we're going to do to you. and the process is the punishment right now, as is often often said, now of course, if they get them, they're gonna throw me in a maximum in a sam's, even though they say they want those. it's something like a sample and he's gone forever. and so i think the message has been sent already

whether they get their hands on him or not. joe laurie a editor in chief of consortium news stay right there. we're going to take a short break, and when we come back, we're going to speak with joe laurie about behind the scenes machinations related to julia massage and with you we and about why so few people in positions of authority in the united states are willing to do anything to help with the. 2 2 2 2 2 2 the russian states never as tight as a sort of legal sense community best ingles, all sense enough to progress be the one else holes. question about this, even though we will then in the european union,

the kremlin machine, the state on the russians cruising and split the smooth net keeping our video agency roughly all the band on youtube tv services. for what question did you say a request that you on the one you ended up to attempt to collect at the exit amount apache sat there for the show and then it will be a job to left for the cause of a dish. uh, excuse us, for the defense of the supplement is such a button and not to mention in person once. did you lose your task like that?

if i said the media, i love to focus on the 2 reasons. can you say, when you say the new country can piece of us going to be present that it was working my name to work it on? stimulus the industry on is it what's money for us of the left? so should william farmer shops might give us. we have good guy started or decisions in my lab and what was that, man? what was that ridiculous problems? i put in the best one today and but you know, so that's what it is that you want to set. i'm sure. a suspicion jimmy was impatient. beautiful, she's getting those on best. do what i mean? there's a, there's a problem, a shot, the welcome back to the whistle blowers, i'm john kerry on group were joined by jo lorio. he's the editor in chief of consortium news founded by the late robert perry and he's

a former journalist for the boston globe, the wall street journal, and the sunday times of london. thanks again for being with us, joe. thank you, joe. one of the issues that hangs over the assigned case like an anvil is the fact that many democrats believe that it was julian who gave us donald trump. and many republicans believe that julian committed treason with a vault 7 release, even if that latter statement doesn't make any sense because julian is not an american citizen. how much of a problem do you think these positions have been or will continue to be for julian's defense? as much as he needs the public support, particularly in the united states, i think it is a problem. the reach the influence of the mainstream media on the public, public, and whatever they're told and why they're told what they're told. unfortunately, it is in this case, hurting julianna's son for quite a lot there. are you good talk to democrats now? oh, still think the julian is the reason why we have donald trump either. hillary couldn't

believe that, but she also thinks that bill the economy james, call me is the reason why and she thinks it's the, it's the deplorable people out there in the co, former coal mining areas of west virginia and pennsylvania. so, i mean, the hillary clinton could blame everybody except the one in the mirror. so this is a real problem that julian is still tied, not only to tell supposedly the look he revealed in his journalism corruption by the democratic party. and hillary clinton's real views about the pub, like about telling the truth, a relationship with big banks. and so many other things have her own reasons for want to go to war and libya. i mean, there was so much that was revealed about her. and that's why she may have been hurt because of what she said, because what was written by hertz campaign staffers. it's the wrong documents journal. i'm supposed to bring that to light. that's what we did. and the plain dimensions are there. so outrages you know,

and he says he said the calorie and trump were like, we're just equally evil and he couldn't stand either want to julian a shot one was cancer, one was going to realize that i think he said that was the choice. so the idea that he was going for donald trump, i just don't believe that they never got any materials on trump. trumpets an open book, he was hanging himself restore so many things that he would say almost every day, outrages, things he didn't need. so many leaks about drop was he had no record in government . right. there were no government documents that could be linked to him. and anyway, it's, it's nonsense that drilling is blamed for that. but it does still influence public opinion to a great extent amongst democrats. unfortunately, we think and they also think he was including with russian to do this, which is complete nonsense. another issue that most americans either don't care about or have forgotten is these credible reports that donald trump c i a under mike pompei o. so to either kill or kidnapped julian in london,

i know that you're not an attorney, but why isn't this a significant issue in this case? perhaps more importantly, even why hasn't it been a significant issue in the u. k. they tried a sondors lawyers tried 1st in the lower court here and the judge would just as i said, wrote that to the c i a had reasons to worry about joanna such but in this most recent decisions that came down on monday, the 1st try to put it into the high court in october 2022, when the us appealed the decision by the low court judge to release julian's thoughts based all on health grounds, nothing else. and the us one that case because they put assurance that they would not problem and sam, so they would not mistreat him in prison and he wouldn't commit suicide cetera, etc. so at that point you at the founders was tried to interesting that. busy they were not allowed to, and this time it was in their submissions at saying they wanted this part of the

appeal. and that was rejected as new evidence. and they, it was not allowed, even though this is extraordinarily significant, that the country that's asking for a soft to be expedited to is the same country who's secret, who's intelligent services were spying on him in the embassy and who blooded to kidnap maybe kill him. that same government that's irrelevant information. i mean, this is ridiculous if it should be in the case, it wouldn't be the case would be torn out immediately what his courts will not embarrass united states by agreeing that out material. they won't allow any discussion of war crimes that will reveal bi weekly leaks in into the court. so they narrow it down to this 1st amendment issue. but of course, that should be talked about. and it won't be, that's one reason the courts. i think a didn't allow, it won't be talked about, it won't be reported by the mainstream. it only reports very briefly on what's

going on in the court. so it should be really important should be known. but everyone, but the courts and britain have help suppressed that information to the last time you were on the show. joe, we talked about the government's case, the justice department, star witness is an admitted lawyer and a convicted pedophile named z for darcy. and otherwise, the government makes a lot of accusations, but it doesn't seem to have solid evidence to back them up. i can't help, but to feel optimistic about that. do we know anything else about the witnesses that could appear against julian if he ends up going to try a very good question. i cannot answer that because uh no, i mean they can't prove that he hand his release is we could be harmed any and forms . okay. that came out was established in chelsea managed court mark us and the hacking what they have on him. and julian and chelsea,

they said wasn't successful and he was trying to crack a password and that drew at the shelter already had access to all these documents. and by that time, like 90 percent of the doctors have been given. the julian a sondra ready by chelsea manning. so that doesn't work. the landing story is a, is a mess as i lose earlier in this are of this interview and the, they really can't pin down here macking in iceland. so what, it's a damn good question, john, who witnesses against him? i mean, there could be, i don't know, i do not know who they could, but other than the demand you just mentioned will testify if you come to the united states, they will bring, i would imagine the people in the camping the sherry people, i guess, independent got somebody's gonna have to try to say what damage was done to national security. and i don't know how they're going to very easily do that. so i don't know who the witnesses would be or who did he hurt to be damaged,

united states, whoever they think was damage in the united states, they may find a witness there inside government to testify. and that's the only thing i can think of right now. finally, joe, i want to ask you about another australian whistleblower. david mcbride. david blew the whistle on australia and special forces murdering $39.00 civilians in afghanistan. it's a long story, but after a military commission recommended that no charges be filed against him, the government filed anyway. and in mid may, david was sentenced to nearly 6 years in prison. you spend a lot of time in australia. why is the australian government united now and its support for julian assad, but they persecute and prosecute david mcbride, a bona fide hero of human rights? well, i was inside the court room in november for the 4 days of his trial and he had to plead guilty because they denied him in defense. essentially, the, what we call marshals in the united states or agents of the attorney general went

in and were actually removed. documents from the possession of the defense that they claimed was still classified. they would not allow him to issue a public interest defensive. david mcbride was arguing that he was following his old to the queen at the time and how the king, which was to serve the subjects of the king. and he did that by leaking this information that he had a higher duty than military law and obeying orders, and that was to the public, to the public interest. and they that judge was a real, a real piece of work. that guy, he completely rejected that he had no defense, so we had to plead guilty, and most people thought he was going to get maybe 2 years of house arrest the central study through the book, got them and give 6 years in prison. why did they go after him and the government is going on during the shock? well, 1st of all, there is a kind of it's not enshrined as like in the constitution of history or the way it

is in the us. but there is a kind of separation of powers. so that's the albany, is the government and the executive, the foreign ministry, the prime minister's office that have been lobbying to get drilling out. and only after one, almost pressure was put on them to do stuff. right? wasn't something like alban agent when he came to power. the 1st thing he was going to do is, you know, get julia shawn's release now. but he did it after a lot of he has blood pressure. he has spoken to by directly about it. they have brought it up, it's not the number one priority, but this judge is totally separate. i mean, this is a judge who was doing the bidding of this is not a military judge by the way, was in a civilian court. he was a no free man, obviously was a military lawyer. they were mcbride, there's a civilian court, and they claim he endangered national security. the same b s. u here in the us about the down damaging of security. and because he revealed information that ultimately led to the search is really brought guessing, company publishing these stories about murders in afghanistan,

they almost were going to arrest dan offices, one of the journalists and a, b, c. but in the end, they dropped that idea because it would not be in the public interest. so truly in a song is in the position down of julius on not being that was a blower, but the publisher of the journalist is it was, it was not in australia prosecute. in other words, den oaks at the a, b. c, who got the materials from david mcbride, they didn't prosecute him. so there's a consistency that they didn't prosecute him. there's really federal police. they could argue, we're not, we don't want you to prosecute a song. but david mcbride is the chelsea manning of the story. he's the guy who made an, a nash, non disclosure agreement, signed the notes, whatever to the millionaire are fairly military. so he should not have given those documents on his argument was, it was in the nation's interest, and certainly it was in the nation's interest. so that's the real answer. why the government could say don't go after songs because he's

a drunk this way. we didn't go after dental and abc because he's a drunk, but we're going to have to believe her. and that judge was really draconian with him. thank you joe, lori, a editor and journalist for your insights. and thanks to our viewers for tuning. and julian assange, admittedly, is a polarizing figure. but let's cut right to the, to the meat of the issue. you don't have to lie to, you don't have to agree with him on every issue to acknowledge that he is the living and breathing example of free speech. the information that julian exposed belongs to the american people. americans have a right to know what their government is doing and their name. sometimes that truth is ugly, but it's always better to speak the truth. and that is what julian assigns has done . thank you for joining us for another episode of the whistle blowers. i'm john kerry. aku, please follow me on subsets at john kerry echo and we'll see you next time the. 2 2 2 2

the stuff for the machine for the picture day such as you go with the bishop this vehicle is it the economic model has to do with these kinds of what it means different this problem next time and see if it doesn't take her to testify this ticket submitted concept, even though it was a new month's bill, one gives us a compliance and we'll get you developing bio chemical weapons inside you

create the guns. good to watch the news, the scene should, you know, wasn't cheaper to use the white glove service cost, but he's because of essentially what is part of the the employee would post that isn't the defense you of us and that in the word part is it something deeper, more complex might be present good. let's stop without cases let's go out of or the,

the dislike is a non stop but is also a pool. so t v, you impose this new tyra's to gains food info from ukraine in order to pop off its own domestic. in this case, as the wild sizes liver to tap to the neo nazis point to is phone is as of the gate, instead of all the regular posted out, some of whom voice is been needing to use. so it's on a video of us and lose experience. we understand the country doesn't going to take us back to be honest. we tried to lie to ourselves, but in reality it is what it is. and his are on the rise of india to this kind of allow a close to i feel services.