the, the hello and welcome to wants a part most western intellectual school degree. and that technology is rapidly changing the world to be leaving with one cavity that is somehow supposed to keep in place the old hierarchy of power. with the west, dictating and taking advantage of the most economic and political decisions. how far is the west to willing to go in fighting the inevitable of to discuss that i'm now joined by worry powell and then junk professor at queensland university of technology in australia. professor powell is great to talk to your thank you very much for your time. a pleasure to be here. now, in your writing, you argue that the world is now add them to can a logical point where a nation's by investing the human capital and resources smartly can

truly, uh a teen took in a logical sovereignty. m b is not totally free, then at least allows dependent on the american technology and the use dollar. when do you see these trends reaching its momentum? think that the processes have been in place for actually probably. so if he is running in parallel with the emergence of ameri, american, big tech and the dominance of the american big tech model, the american big take model has been anchored in this id or of rent seeking rights that can be that enable them to increase super profits through the control of infrastructure and the prohibition of others from a to developing and implementing their own infrastructure. and of course, running applications on top of that infrastructure in parallel to that process has

been in some regards, an underground movement that has lived on the edges all the proof for ease of the technological social landscape. some of that has been in the libertarian centers of the american body politics, particularly in areas of cryptography, and the open source movement. who have been for a long time, incredibly concerned at the growing power and the centralized ation of authority. that comes with the american big tech model. the other part of the american big tech model is that it's not just a feature of the private capitalist market. in fact, point the reverse american big tech would not be what it is without the longstanding multi decades support of the american government, particularly through department of defense and pendant on funding and institutions such as dop,

which has supported cycled dual use research and development. we've reached a point in time, an inflection point in human history, where these technologies are being grasped by large organizations. i'm countries as a set of tools to extricate themselves from the shackles of american big tech and tech, non feudalism and creative platforms and infrastructure that support ambitions of national sovereignty. over the next 10 years, i would expect that these right, james days, technology right. james will begin to flourish in many parts of the world. now i suppose it's not just technology originally was, but also economic, financial, and political arrangements that allow for the creation of a truly inter national system, as you call it, with a hyphen meaning that is based on sovereignty. and it's based on the idea that

nations engage with a child or in pursuit of that own benefit. and i wonder if i find this notion of benefit of interest of a personal or national needs to be central here. because for some reason, somehow this american of ran seeking behavior doesn't see this very crucial aspect of human psychology. both of them collective an individual level, but people actually, they need need to be satisfied whether you like it or not as well. i think again, love with nice things. there is a historical context which helps us understand the, the state that we're in. and the historical context is the evolution, i guess, of liberalism, at the doctrine from the west that really had a way of thinking about what civilization meant. and within liberalism, civilization lots to revolved around

a very particular idea of the individual. and that whole idea was that the individual was a free autonomous individual that existed separate from social relationships. and that, that free individual inbound and in imbued with the qualities of rationality would be able to pass the dynamics of collect the will and culture. so that was the idea now, on the other side of that idea was what was seemed to be on the civilized person that had to be overcome. and the, on the civilized person was the person who identified themselves as positive a social break as part of a cult fee environment and responded and behaved within a social context. and that was seemed to be an on the civilized,

almost bob barrick kind of way of being human. so this goes to the heart of how we understand what being human manes and side full 30400 d is. liberalism has sort to shake individuals in this particular sense. well, it's interesting that it's estimates, saving, not only individuals, but also, you know, large um, you know, collective groups like the united states because it didn't stop it behaves on an international stage like an individual who only have as view of his own interest and totally unconnected soon the world around him not only in uh, you know, disregarding what others thinks or, or need, but also just regarding the, the basic reality hold the basic history of the world. yeah. look at the wife thinking about yourself and your place in the world and relationship to it. so when you say yourself as a detached individual,

whether you say that as an individual biological being or individual, as a collective, such as a nation, you really don't have a sense that what's good for you is intrinsically connected to what's happening around you. and that somehow you're able to set yourself apart from everything else and dictate to that world around you want to be is that you want and how it is that you will go about achieving that. we've seen that in many dimensions, and i pride to the emergence of american hegemony over the last 70 years. we sort of forcing in, in british imperialism and more broadly coming out, post the west. we. so i could take a little view about technology and human beings and the relationship to nature, which views nature as simply something that human beings put literally con, call and exploit. so there's a, there's in a sense of a philosophical package deal,

a cultural package deal that emanates it out of the enlightenment that has on the machine. the ways in which technologies are being mobilized. and the ways in which a particular hedge a monic power has ultimately straddled the global lab, the skype. now if f e r is coming to an end, i want to mention that you quin the term digital rest, talia and, and usage as the it may come to supercede or western dominance. now when we talk about the with valley of the, she's very nerds among us would know that the piece of his tale a enshrined somewhere in c as the basic principle of international relations and recognition that the countries ultimately act in the own interest. so there was a, you know, a sort of different uh, self echo on, depending within the west too. and what's important to me is that that piece of wrist valet came after 30 years war genius thing, the emergence of the,

just the style here with require such sacrifice as well. we hope that it doesn't become bloody, but, you know, provided that some sense can provide a little global level. then maybe we can avoid the bloodshed that lead to the original tracy's up of westphalia, in the city. explain hundreds of how long as we have of policies that winding powers done lyft guy willingly. and we'll seek wherever they can. so cling onto what they have. and if they can't click onto it, they're happy to bring the whole house down. i don't think one of the dangerous components of the current by that is that there is a strong exits, the logical element which draws on a deeply g to g di christian, a thread of thinking about the world and about right and wrong about

good enable and that condo jewel is, is it is, it is, is a pace that gave us the inputs us to those a sake not to negotiate and work with others in the world, but to overcome others in the well as. but professor powell, there's a, i understand this issue of power and dominance, but there is also no is an important element of self preservation, which is instinctual. and i think it's going to be argued that stability on the sort of smart alford to allocate your resources and your efforts could be key if not vital at the time of major transitions which relieve them. and i would also argue that developed countries where populations are far less tempered by hard

should've done in many other parts of the world need death more than anyone else. because, you know, you need to have all your ducks in a row in order to deal with phenomena that are outside your control. like for example, natural disasters, or even large migration flows there. lots and lots of, uh, you know, huge problems in the world that even the united states with its super ego cannot deal with a loan. um, yep, it seems that the west is a band on the wasting. it's safe to cushion that it has accumulated over centers as fast as possible. how do you explain that? i think it's very hard to explain because in some regards you would think that that kind of self destructive behavior is irrational. so there are funds of rush analyses which help us understand what drives these behaviors. and as i tough some before, some of those rationality is guide. so that sense of dualism, that belief that they represent all that is gold and everything else is all that

is evil. and, and when you've got that flowing through all coughing through your binds, then you can just about rationalize anything. i think that's part of the explanation. i think that there is also some, or how you mean if he effects that a going on from a systems point of view. and that is that in moments of desperation, as you feel your authority in the world around you, that you thought you knew very well and controlled, slipped through your fingers. your 1st reaction is to try to stem the flower to hold that back to block the flow from happening. but the problem is, is that what often takes place as a result, you said you cause more harm to yourself. and this is what happens in the system in the interview responses where you think you're attacking all your bodies, things that's attacking the threat to your system. but in fact,

it ends up coding itself. i don't think the a long that's going on them. you see that all over the place with, for example, the, the, the, with an organization of technology in the name of preserving liberty and freedom and democracy and all those things actually on the la times, liberty, freedom and democracy and all those things. and we have reached the stage where i think that the, the global majority, if you will have to realized what's going on and have simply prepared themselves to move on. ok, well uh what exactly the global majority is doing in order to prevent parents off to move on. we will discussing a couple of minutes station. the

what is part of the valuable posted isn't the defense you of us and that in the word part is it something deeper, more complex might be present during that stop without collision. is that spelled out of the welcome back to wells. the parts we have supported powell and then junk professor at quinn, slend to university of technology in australia. professor powell and before the break, we were discussing various forms of weaponized seeing the existing financial or

technological infrastructure. but i think there is also a pretty clear trend on uh, picking up the battles litchfield battles with countries that can actually afford themselves different. logical subaru some sovereignty. i mean, 1st and foremost restaurant and china. do you think this technological rise of the rash can be stopped or reversed by this? i would claim very intentional. breeding of insecurity by the west using insecurity as a strategy to a set of queen onto, you know, the passing away privileges with the ticket can be stopped. in many ways. the technology genie is out of the bottle now. and what that means is that the tools are available for people around the world and nations to build the hardware and the software that they need to protect the environments that they hold to be important,

the informational environment that they hold to be important. so when countries or businesses enterprises in countries trade and conduct commerce with others rather than an operating system, which requires a massive amount of data to be basically shared through server farms in new new york. or, you know, the policy, the united states with an able's, united states authorities to intervene and in effect so vile data flows. and of course, if they, so i want to send some data flows to block the flow of funds this to, to, um, to sanction transactions, etc, etc. now once you've got the, the digital parks, the, on the ground cables, the satellite networks, the doctor centers that enable your information infrastructure to operate

independently of that. the next thing, you know, the operating systems and what we have is the development of a scale very robust. the operating system is based on open source platforms and technologies, whether it's in a software applications, or even in the design of mock our process of chips. so open source becomes the next frontier. the next thing that gets built on top of that is actually a new set of standards. the standards of the world will begin to oper, right? but at least the global majority will be open source standards. and the reason why i've been sol standards mca enables into operability between what i otherwise autonomous with finally in like digital eco systems. now the last thing that will get built from an infrastructure point of view is an array of cryptographic tools. now cryptography is in essence the, the mathematics of keeping secrets and the,

the need to ensure that insulation flies only when and where it needs to flow or to the right people to the right counter copies and not to others is actually going to be a biting feature of the new technology landscape. and that's a good thing because it enables nation states and the enterprises and individuals in dies nation states to continue to conduct into cost with those in other costs. the world without feel that that information will create threats to themselves or to the country. okay. that's gonna operate outside the region of their western width. so to say, and i think it's important to add that it is in the interest of unknown western players to share that technology or with other countries as they do uh, in the area rapidly in order to essentially realize that own view of the world, the world that is truly inter national with

a hyphen in between that can also act as a system off. um, you know, balances and counter waits for um, you know, to tyrannical accumulation of power. and that's the power that's in and of itself that the united states, while preaching or extolling the, the values of democracy is actually conducting itself in a very, they're not cold, very despotic or very capricious way. and my question about that is not ideological . i wonder why do you think the united states has a band and this, you know, a craft of traditional classical diplomacy? is it because it doesn't feel the need for it then? doesn't it doesn't feel the need for negotiating with other countries or simply because they kind of do that anymore. i think he lives probably the sugar high of any polarity over the last, if he is, has actually colored out the,

the well spring of state craft capabilities within the institutions off the american political system. and it has essentially leaves off the vipers of pax americana way, and it could dictate times to everybody in the world, and it did. and it didn't, at any longer have the skills needed to negotiate with others. and i think this raises a very fundamental issue about what being a great power means in an era of multi polarity. and the question really is, is whether one can sustain a position or an approach way. the great powers literally expropriate from the rest of the world. or the gripe has actually empowered the rest of the world. and that's the paradox because to be a bright power in a multi polar environment,

you actually have to be generous and give power. why? and when you can do that, you will actually build a very robust, multi polar environment in the technology world. i'll give you an example rather than holding onto all of the intellectual property. for example, in a particular set of applications or operating systems. a multi paula environment, characterized by digital westphalia, will actually say leading countries in 1st significantly in building the skills and capabilities of applications, developers and software quotas. and people like that in the global majority. because you want people in those parts of the world with all the skills i need to participate in this multi polar architecture. yeah, absolutely. that's what the americans used to call when we and, and that brings me back to the glory days of western head. germany,

when its power was described by former year secretary of state, madeleine albright, as benevolent it was back to them based on the idea also in the united states being the global public goods provider. and the argument was exactly that. the united states doesn't curse all the countries call parade with it willingly because they appreciate its generosity. my question to you is, are there any public goods laughed at this point of time that the united states genuinely shares with the rest of the world without expecting something in return? not at the moment, and i think we need to also remember that during this period of national public goods provisioning the united states deed nonetheless, undertake continual military interventions around the world. so for example, between 98461990, the united states instigated $2.00 military interventions per year on average

between 1991 and not in 2019. that number actually increased to $3.00, military interventions per year on average. so despite the fact that it was a dominant apply up, particularly in the post service period, it actually continued to pursue a kinetic 1st approach to how it wielded its power and authority in the world. so madeline albright, i think i was a, was a great sales person in that regard. and it was a very nice way to help people forget that the other parts of the american empire in terms of its role conduct. well, the american slide to say that mantra, the perception is a reality, and sometimes they seem to believe in it themselves. now you mentioned the kinetic or military aspect of it. them clearly, you know,

all the countries have been like the americans have been paying close attention to what the americans or the west generally is doing overseas. both russia, china, turkey, and many other countries have fortified. the military's but china and russian particular as far as i know, china already has a larger navy that the united states. russia has acquired an ad in the super sonic a weaponry. and it's true that the western countries i'm modernizing, that arm is as well, but they are relying primarily on private const contractor. so it's more expensive and for last time efficient because in both china is in rest and litters can combine their industries to develop in a certain way and deliver a product. my question to you is, as far as you know, kind of the west actually keep pace with its adverse areas, giving, giving how uh, avidly its it seems to be picking a battles with them in terms of its manufacturing sector. it's clearly well behind

and it is going to require a substantial investment in new technologies, new robotics systems, as well as in the soft eco system, pre conditions necessary for successful model di manufacturing. and i'm moving by that design engineers then graduates, etc. all of these areas are currently well sure of way of the countries, particularly china, russia, and such like are in the world. i think the other thing that's important to bear in mind is that the nature of conflict, i guess, in a multi polar environment is different from how things have thing. and we're starting to say rapid developments in a range of new technologies such as dry and technologies, an electronic, we'll say a and the role of information. and all that mean propaganda by, i mean they,

they the ability to send signals and encrypt signals to you'll technologies, to instruct, you'll, you'll, to equipment to do things that all of that is developing at a rapid place at rapid pace. the material sciences are affecting things like papa sonic delivery, and i don't think it's gonna be a real challenge for the boys. be able to point to bear in mind. so is that they, they wisdom and particularly the u. s. military built up. i've the last 70 years has been on the tatum in the context of a doctrine of global domination. and i made part of that a very clear doctrine in the american public policy frameworks that every part of the world is of security interest to the us. and they, for attempt to commit to the development of a military footprint that can in effect, intervene all across the globe. and the,

on their own times, capable of fighting to was it wants other countries have actually had a final modest approach to how it designs its defense spending priorities. and you'll notice that every other country does not have a global footprint. kendall project, globally, bottom importantly, is very, very capable in that on back yards because that's what they were designed for. well, the last thing or with that is that the effect is not only in the backyards, but also within that only yards. because this is ultimately the, you know, the goal of the governance to provide for your own people and to structure your spending in a way that benefits them 1st and foremost, the rob and then allows you to 5 tours inductively. but we will have to discussing some other time professor powell, we have to leave it there. i greatly greatly appreciate your time and wisdom with

us today. it's been a pleasure. thank you. and thank you for watching hope to see you again. honey was a part of the a good one. yeah. that you attempted to collect the x amount apache sat there for the show and then it will be a job to loss mitigation of a of a dish. uh,

international stuff is the template to separate the setup button and not to printer in a person wants to do lives. it has to be like that. if i see the media, i love people. there's only 2 reasons. could you say, would you say that you need to be sure of us going to be present the day before the work? you're done statements, the industry on these little less money. proof of concept really left. so should william farmer shots, monuments who we have got a guy started over or decision did my name, and what was that man with whom owns i ridiculous friends i put in the midst of them one today and bunch of deluxe. i've also left for an additional to settlement shows. total suspect pretty show can was on page, did it for she's getting those are the best do what i mean? there's a push out the,

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