start though, is normally given to something that is at least as important and that is terrorist financing. i'm not talking about the work of treasury, department, or finance, ministry, bureaucrats and accountants planning future sanctions. i'm talking about how terrorist groups around the world pay for their weapons, explosives, ammunition, training, housing, even their travel. i'm talking about how they raise and transfer money. money is the life blood of terrorist groups. it's money that allows them to launch everything from a tax to propaganda campaigns. the conventional wisdom is that in today's world, it's extremely difficult to launder money or to pay cash for anything of any real value without it coming to the attention of a government. but it happens, it happens every single day assigned a bit loud and manage to assemble an entire army, mostly under the radar. has bella is one of the best financed and best armed to terrorist groups in the world. how does that happen?

it takes a special person to develop expertise in terrorist financing. it takes a person who is not afraid to confront the details, and it takes the person who will be committed to the issue over the long haul. we are very fortunate to have that expert with us today, loretta and the polio only holds a master's degree in philosophy and a master's degree in terrorism, studies from the london school of economics. she also has a ph. d. in the field. she was a full, bright scholar at the johns hopkins university school of advanced international studies in washington, dc. following career in banking, loretta went into journalism, publishing her work in newspapers, all across europe. she's now chairperson of the globe. they must read. that's a group studying terrorist financing. she's the author of 11 books on this subject, including her latest called tech, no capitalism, loretta and the polio on the thank you so much for joining us. well, thank you for inviting me, loretta, you have the noted much of your adult life to finding and to countering money

laundering and terrorist financing. you've advised governments and heads of state from around the world. you've written about the subject and you've appeared on virtually every important news network in the world. can you explain to us why the measures that have been taken by world leaders and their governments have not been enough to stop terrorist financing? but i would say that the 1st reason is that this measure a change from country to country. i mean tell her is my is a global phenomenon. in fact, i think is one of the most globalized illegal activity is there was seen the st sooner. the 4 of the berlin wall and the policy that being put in play to come to tanner is financing and also to mitigate tyree's them. the impacts of terrace activity, or even to eradicate tetter is of not being put in place everywhere.

or in the same way or with the same intensity. so there is some, an approach, the global approach, which is not as strong as it does require. so this is the 1st reason. the other reason is that you know, 10 or is, is very much, you know, parts all of our life and as being with us. so i from the beginning and tell her it is believed that the freedom pfizer says what they want to change existing regina. so they work together with clement organization and then clement organization of the deep, a deep rooted to the in the any society. so it is a problem that i'm afraid we will never solve 10 completely. now we can meet the gauge, it's a we can reduce the impact, but dreaming of

a solution to terrorism. i'm afraid it's a dream that will never come through. how much of an actual problem is this on a global scale with a post 911 changes in place in the international finance? is it possible for terrorist groups to finance their operations on a grand scale to okay, so $911.00 was um i would say it was one off a meeting that was an event that took place and certain point in history because of a serious of circumstances. so if you think about that, the hijackers were funded with trans federal money taking place to norma by cut norma banking got channels. so they, they obtain visa to enter the united states. most of them not to saudi arabia on is the, the procedure right now. all of that to took place at the time in which nobody

could have predicted or would have expected and event like that. not to take place that think about getting on a plane without being checked. i mean, this is impossible. it's never going to happen again. but that doesn't mean that terrorism that's not pose at the same kind of threat that's needed with 911. i mean the real quick. what happened with the 7 of october at the top by a months in israel? i mean, did retaliation know from israel is very similar to what the united states as done after 911. now that is so generally what inflates people support therapy with the support of peoples that sympathize with certain codes. so we will see the consequences in the years to come. so from that point of

view, i would say that is still possible to create the same kind of that care. so at global level, or at least at international level, and also does possible through these kind of event exceptional if and just to convince people to join in the fight. because the illusion that these kind of attacks project is that it is possible to achieve the goal of terrorism. so in the case of a kind, i swear, all know what's the destruction of the united states? it is an economic superpower. so death, tact to towards the far away enemy in order to stop the far away enemy from financing and supporting and then your enemy, which way you know, the corrupted regina of the various countries from where, you know,

the members of archive that's came from. so the same think we can do that and say hey, could up and now after october, the 7 know course it is an illusion because no. right now we don't have any prove that the in history, these kind of event of really change an existing re, james, unless of course that followed by an uprising, which is a public uprising. no, we have not seen this happen it. and in the art of war after 9 who have been, who are now going to see that happening in the rewards after october 7. but never the less, you know, there is this idea is this news, you know, and that is what we should really be concentrating on if we want really to meet you gauge and also to reduce the power of errors. so again,

it's ations. i read recently that virtually the only way left to launder money on a large scale is through the purchase of real estate, fine art and resources. i don't fully understand that. can you explain? well, yes, of course, that's what we've seen a many cases in recent years. so people buying a, for example of property in the, in spain, the, in the south, in the, on the, on the beach is around your shores of, of spain. portugal. 2 also, you know, the 1000 lead to lead and the use these kind of activity to load their money. now you, you may ask, how is this possible? because i mean, you can, people are actually, you know, carry suitcases and therefore cash and some of the accept them. well actually yes.

i mean, most of the money laundering that they staking place today as it was in the past, by the way, as it was in the past, takes place and in cash and takes place with bach shipment. because you know, we're talking about large amount of money. i mean i, i give you an example. i actually came across a situation like this in the option tina is. so people in the united states want to buy property in one of cyrus because you know, they want to have a place to go during the summer months. so or, you know, whatever, you know, but they can't really bring the money in so easily, you know, to them, to take them out because there are no one entire section. so what did they do? they range for people that they know to do the exchange. so let's say,

you know, you are in a resident of bio cyrus, you are a professional and you want to send your children to school in the united states and you have to pay the fees in us dollars. so instead of doing the transfer of money, which of course, you know, will be tax and also regulated, at least you know, until recently, where you do is you, you get into an arrangement with somebody in the united states. and you will provide the money in the witness side is to buy an apartment uh for this person and the next change. this person will pay the fees of your children. they are going to university know this is a very, very, i would say, middle class level, any happens all the time. now do people know that by doing that, they may get involved with money laundering?

i think you lots of people don't buy this. this is very, very easy way to overcome restriction the on both side. so do this kind of connection. so yeah, i'll do you stop something like that to see in order to stop something like that, where you need is to educate people, to teach them that by doing that by behaving in this way. that actually, you know, breaking the role. but also, they are supporting any legal activity. this is just one of the many example. and then of course, you also have, you know, the, are towards the same to be, it can be applied to the art ward you, you, if you are buying something go, which is very expensive. if you're buying a castle or you know, in a row,

that's going to be very difficult. but if you buy, let's say, in middle to lower side artist, which is not very well. no, no, it is in you. it doesn't require a lot of money. then. yes, you, you can easily do something like that. and it, you say, well, i'll do the law under millions and millions, hundreds of millions of by doing that. it just repeat the same old peroration over and over again. and or there's plenty of people who are willing to get into this kind of activity loretta and apply on it internationally recognized expert on terrorist financing. thank you for speaking with us, but don't go away and we're going to take a short break. and when we come back, we'll continue our conversation and ask her about the methods by which terrace are prevented from financing and how the must constantly change state to.

2 2 the what is part of the visit that the employee would post good isn't the deepest view of us and that in the word part, is it something deeper, more complex might be present? good. let's stop without glitches. let's go out of high acceptance and i'm here to plan with you whatever you do, you do not watch my new show. seriously. why watch something that's so different listed of opinions that he won't get anywhere else. welcome to please or do have the state department c i a weapons makers, multi 1000000000 dollar corporations. choose your fax for you. go ahead. change and

whatever you do. don't want my show stay main street because i'm probably going to make you uncomfortable. my show is called stretching, but again, you probably don't wanna watch it because it might just change the way you the welcome back to the whistle blowers. i'm john kerry onto. we're speaking with author journalist and terrorist financing expert loretta and apple. they only. loretta, thanks again for being with us. thank you. loretta. i spent 15 years in the c. i a working on counterterrorism followed by 2 years as the chief investigator at the senate foreign relations committee. i remember very well how complicated tracking terrorist money was. and i remember how so many big important international banks found themselves involved. it was probably inadvertent, but there was also an element of bank leaders being blinded by greed. that's what

caused them to look the other way for far too long. has this been your experience and if so has that changed? oh yes, absolutely. i a s been my experience. oh so um things have changed. um see, i would say significantly after $911.00 because of the end of banking regulation. now, it is not as easy as it was in the past, but this is still take place. i'm afraid. yes. this is an element, of course as come into the equation and reason to you. and this is creeped to conferences. so now i, a beast calling is very much a core and say that is track to every single step. now, initially, bitcoin was used by team and organization on the doc net. it was

also used for money laundering, but that as stopped because now it is clear that you can track of every single step of the beads calling the bulk chain. and eventually, when you go and exchange the beat, the bid calling for real money, which can be any quarter see. so this is when the mechanism out of the investigation actually can block you. we have several cases was seen in recent, near where, you know, people where long doing really on so, and there was a hint discover that actually was the f b i that they did the 1st major but break through with big coins. but this calling is just one of the many, many, many, crypt accordance is some, some of these crypt mclawrence is like monopoly money. how they're just being created out of, you know, with the success of

a certain organization which of pulled up, you know, web page is, or that they cell service and kind of services on the internet. so through that kind of a crypto currency, and it is possible to lot thrown their money because there is no control because you know, there is no, it's impossible to patrol every single transaction without the the block chain, which includes this typical only of the beef calling now the banking system, a dozen deal openly in bits calling audio. now beach cooling is part of the financial industry, let's say in the, in the united states. so technically speaking, you could jump to beach, can still do this kind of activity, although, you know it's,

i don't think i haven't seen it anyway. i mean even organizations are not relying on on beach coughing. and then you know that there are many other ways um, there is a formal banking system for example, known as a, sorry only there while a but also the informal banking system which is used in, in china. and i mean, the chinese do land each other money to a new form of banking system. and often the system is based upon in a large family. so if you really want to money loaned me to uh channels which are either the banking and the system, the, or you know, the informa banking system. you can still do it. but you have to be more careful than you are before. i actually wanted to ask you about that. specifically. i did

an investigation more than a decade ago for john kerry when he was the chairman of the senate foreign relations committee. i went to the middle east and i was able to transfer just as a test, $50.00 to myself, through something called while i went to a small shop in abu dhabi. i gave him in $50.00. he gave me a very long number by which to later claim the money. and when i got home to washington, i went to an arrow bakery. i gave the man there my number and i got my $50.00 back . this was very small stakes, of course, but are these while as used to finance terrorist groups and if so, what can be done to regulate them? of course are there while it's use for tatters financing. i mean it's not. so we just know the deal wallace system is controlled by terrace organization of 3 not, but the wallet system is so huge and it's all over toward is you know, it's

a super global system is um, is actually very cheap in comparison to other systems. so transfer like, you know, west and you know, for example, ice very quick. you can do, i mean, you, you must have experience that it's, um, he's also linked to the goal. and so the, the reserves of their while a are actually in goal to see it. so you can even transfer gold instead of you know, transferring money if it is possible to do that to. and that's, it may be actually a good way to avoid the controls because, i mean golda is yes, this tangible but it's difficult to face it. so there,

while i was there, the advantage of the while a is a to goes everywhere so, so you can find in a while a door to somebody that can transfer the money and gave you the money everywhere in the ward. so, you know, you could, you can be up in the mountains, in pakistan and, and use the water move. now the, of the use of the wall i would say, in terms of the terrace financing is at micro level is a either small donations for example. and so we're not seeing and saudi arabia, for example. i mean, any body we sponsoring go on to the any zation for inside your app is now going to use the water. it's going to use that x to you either means a bulk shipment of cash being the most uh the most use and the preferable one. but a global level, the same but nicer. the people in the, the,

well actually look at that group but that arms are going to zation that they believe that is fighting for the freedom of the region. no i, i space if i that the freedom of the region because most of the people the actually are sponsoring in the, in this way, a people that i've no idea what to tell who's got his haitian is they really do believe that the group that they're funding is a group was finding that's, you know, for the freedom of their own people. so these kind of individual all over towards, you know, used in walla, to find the various organization as they use the wallet, also to phone charges. so they do a good job in that range and what's the next financing battlefield, loretta? do government still have to worry about the banks?

can money still be transferred on a large scale and homeless strategies change in order to keep up with the terrorist to? i think we're already in the, in the next show, the fields or the new frontier is actually cyber sad or is this very little is reported about not so many, many companies. so do not report that they have been hacked by organization that require payment, runs on the ransom is today the around some of us. it is also button, particularly i would say run some of the cyber attacks is one of the most important source of tanner is financing. and we know very little about that. so imagine a, a, a big organization in b corporation that gets hacked and they withdrawn somewhere and they ask for

payment of a tool to $100000000.00. and so how many that organization will pay as quickly as you possibly can, so that nobody would know that is being hacked because you know, if you, if the news that you've been hacked comes, how to then there's a few taishan of this organization is going to be damage and there is no way there is no way that you can protect and present yourself from these kind of back attacks. so hacking is the new frontier and perhaps this is why we haven't seen a lot of financial activity for tatters, sign on. so you can either feels because the old takes place in the darkness of the internet to the right of that was absolutely brilliant. thank you

so much for coming on the show. well, thank you john. know nature as all of us have been affected by terrorist and then one way or another, whether it's americans arriving for a normal day's work on the morning of september, 11th, 2001 russians gathering in the theater to listen to some music earlier this year. or anybody else in any of the worlds countries. terrorism, of course, can never be accepted, never under any circumstances. it's up to us to fight together with methods that do not compromise our respect for the rules of law and for human rights. that's why we owe such a debt of gratitude to people like loretta napoleonic. i know that i for 1 am indebted. thanks for joining us for another episode, but with the blowers. i'm john carry onto please follow me on subsets at john kerry, uncle. we'll see you next time the. 2 the

19 sixty's were attorney boy advertised struggle for liberation. however, in the south of the continent, european races decided for long the agony of colonialism is 1965. the white minority, unilaterally declared the state of rhodesia states authorities pursued the policy of racial segregation. the indigenous population was deprived of rio political rights and subject them merciless economic exploitation effort and bait variance with the support of the soviet union and china oppose the splinter of the colonial system. a coalition of pro western countries took the side of ro, di the gorillas, carried out bold raids from the territory of zambia and mozambique and inflicted

painful blows on the races. as the situation worse than the rhodesian army, turned to chemical and biological weapons of the races, boys and water and fools and gladys contaminated medicines on the guerrillas. this caused an epidemic of cholera and anthrax and led them acetate to ality. however, the attempts to break down the applicants resistance were futile. the white minority relief was due in 1979. it kept the deal later, a year later, free elections warehouse, instead of a racist road. the just the state of zimbabwe appeared on the world map and became a true vast yes. of the ideas of fan african is of the moment 41 percent of you have to delta and i'm savings to cover a $1000.00 emergency. if we have record numbers of americans who are on the verge of having their cars repossessed more than a 137000000 americans are facing financial hardship because of medical that in

america we do have a welfare system in place to help people who are struggling financially, but it's a conditional system you have to prove to the government that you truly need help. the same was a way like to explain the basic income is that is like social security for the rest of us. a basic income would be a monthly payments that would go to everyone. just a $1000.00 a month. no strings attached. use i have, i would like them maybe. i don't know. i just don't go crazy. the reason that i am a fan of guaranteed income because it is this idea that everybody is deserve and that's just by virtue of your being here. of the every spring and summer, the melting optics move reveals abandoned machinery, millions of rusty barrels, and the detritus left by human expansion into this most inaccessible of territories

. yes, i used to move, so take off my on both of us for someone from the doors at the bus to be joining us . an issue calling to us from clean optic, travels the highest island home to the biggest opponent station on the front of joseph land. occupied go diarra, he asked me for i was in the bush or more you have to do should. so it means if you have, when you feel when we see lots of modeling and then put some of the, some will stay on the old stuff last time i see, feel like a mess almost a little bit. see me. and i'm not sure when you to, i've got the serial no boys to mail it, please join me instead of the optic pioneer's main objective was to explore and comcast these harsh lands. they had no time to think about waste management now and, and i guess they could remain for centuries. that's my of my choice. the so it's pretty at the question system is a multiple in you could have to deal with to issue the

new role in this presidential race heads. do we run off with reform is most suit because the skin on the conservative side jelly said somebody. so next week by doing should drop the house of the presidential race. that's the call from the new york times editorial board following the president to worrying performance in those days, debates independent us presidential candidate as well. but the f. kennedy junior argues that the nation does that better than a choice between the 2 evils and people across the country seem to agree. these are the choices that honestly, labels is like it is that it was really hard to watch. i think it's a national embarrassment that that is our represent.