the, the the, [000:00:00;00] the hello and welcome to world to part one victim. that studying history teaches you is that everything works until it doesn't. the friday, the golden age, the dark, or maybe it's aftermath, especially when somebody tries to avert the announcement to vote with the latest elections in the west. more and more vividly demonstrating the voters, this enchantments, with date and date. of course,

what was the had for the west and for the rest world to discuss it. i'm now joined by and filed a former british diplomat and also roles and me sit in moscow how british diplomacy in russia failed as a proud, as great to see you. again. thank you very much for your time. and this just to get on some of the things and by some you, by now the last time we chatted, it was primarily about the case for and po assistance. these are the russia which borrowing from the title of your book sale. but to them, more interested in taking a look at the domestic politics across the west and also in the united kingdom. because we have had a number of major political events like elections in your own country or in france, the essential debate in the united states. and i think in all of those, the political establishment is looking rather clumsily. i wonder if you see that as just, you know, and relate of sequence of, of vows,

or do you think it signifies some sort of a trend, perhaps the turn of the tie, the political side? well, i mean, they're the 2 aspects of those space. one is that all it takes moves and cycles anyway, and what we're seeing in the u. k. is it just a natural kind of a name into that cycle to sort some given if a government has been in past 14 years, really? and that's kind of, you know, that if flows up and down in terms of clinical nation this morning to nice as movements. uh, i tend to think um, but you know, the other aspect, it's a specific nature of what we see today happening, where there's quite a shop can move away from that kind of consensus. the main political parties in several countries. the u. k. being a being born obviously the late but people gain power in the u. k, but we're seeing the message body. so the reform party sort of gaining motivates and the course in the beautiful. and so in the back of the cons decision which could for the 1st time she could have hand uh let's see what the 2nd round of

waiting says. but to moving depends message potty the so i think there is sort of in base. so i, so sense of the kind of shift away from to the mainstream kind of political bodies, which i'm very honest going to questions people are worried about that stay on the cost of living clauses. and as far as i'm concerned is an internationally some example of something in ukraine and other kind of complex. so and well, i think it is concerned that can, it's these traditional policies and nobody's saying anything different from each other on these big label challenges which any seem to be getting was pulled up. even those parties horse things slightly different things they have. they tend to do the same things when they come to power. and, you know, the last time we discussed your book, one of your arguments was the west and the leave have become sole cell sensors and because of perhaps so arrogant that they couldn't be bothered with starting the reality. you know, establishing facts on the ground objective facts on the ground and, you know,

making the decisions whatever they may be based on those realities on the ground. and i one day that applies to domestic politics as well that you know, they, they press a certain core us, which may be totally unrolled as from what the reality actually calls for. yeah, i think that's probably by oaks on a think. well, he also sees it is less of a separation between kind of states and media now as well. you know, like what you see suddenly in the u. k. in the price, when you took by ukraine, for example, somebody are going to think about it pretty much every day. this part of the united difference between well a full the, the, the 2 main political parties say in was going to media. say it, is it almost kind of a complete cancellation of debate with fact so relevant to kind of, you know, the narrative, but i think what the purpose parties are doing is they actually, i think debates and they want to introduce kind of stuff with the government and this with major media, all many talking about nothing that's kind of new, particularly because the people i'm based on the day to day basis they and these

are for quite middle class. it'd be in good jobs, but have a, just a little bit of information about what's happening in lots of situations around the world and even though in countries. so the inc, actually, if populism is getting people to talk more by will facts and mill events and nothing, that's a good thing. that's mr. proud. i think there is also there a very important distinction there between again, preaching and practicing because it is true that the populace parties are addressing bread and butter issues. but sometimes i get an impression that they're doing that just for the sake all 5, you know, populism or um, you know, for vacation, do you think they actually uh, me and do you think they actually in time to put that into a real policies for the people because from all the examples we have have up until now, even with trump, which was a major example in the united states, you know, getting those ideas. realized is a huge challenge. i'm not even sure it's 3 a like it's a,

it's possible bestbuy to come to the specific drug going to the end of, of the onset. but of me, i think i'm a no, i think this is a genuine desire to kind of do something different from the main stream in creating on situations like and you know, you, clay, nobody's talking about this kind of ridiculous situation where we could get a new way to come to succeed in ukraine is to send billions and billions and billions of weapons and nothing but he seems to be improving any crazy. so gladly losing, nobody's talking about an alternative to that. and the thing that needs to be, that's a baby. so i think most people are not just laws and others, including civic dual band took by the need for negotiate to supplement. i think that's a genuine sentiment. i think people genuinely saying, well maybe we need see something different. you know that, and i think that's a good thing then we should encourage that and that'll and trump, what happens that, i mean when you go back to insulation back in 2016 is coming in in 2017. what was different then was that i see the, the political establishment in washington, including with this, within the same political, positive of pumpkins,

was totally set against him. having any improvement to relations with russia. i think that dynamic may saw the have changed now way in congress and get inside of the medium or germany. there's a much more open debates about what i see is a good idea of just pumping billions of weapons into ukraine. so i think that dynamic that political dynamic and washington dc is different now albany was kind of the years ago when the age of law said the election campaign, the one. so i think, i think if we were to get empower and let's face it. if joe biden stays in the vice and the lights and increases day by day, the thing the political dynamics of dc will be different for trump and would he would have, i think more space to have to pay to buy that. she kind of changing that particular state is going to cry. now, you mentioned something about bus 2 crane and one budgeting trends we see across the entire west,

including the u. k. is an increase in military responding us. russia being used as a primary pre tax, and it's suppose as aggressive motives, and that's pretty the understandable. after all, there is a conflict raging and rushing is increasing its military spending as well. but one thing the kremlin is very cautious about is making sure that they're also putting a lot of resources into uh, the quality and availability of public goods saw that the public doesn't get to test. and that's ultimately what the politics is or has always been about, you know, managing your foreign policy concerns against the, the domestic challenges with which i believe it's very clear she makes that statement in eh, and every of he's pretty much every of his speeches that there is a priority of domestic politics above any uh, for in adventures. do you seeing the same in the west?

do you think the politicians in the best actually put that priority on the well being of that own people? northern spacious, but in actual policy? well, i mean there are 2 aspects of that firstly, i mean, certainly if you look at the code election and you tell you guys dominated by domestic issues, no one's really talking about what's happening on, on the world stage. that's focusing on things like the cost of living crisis. yeah . yeah, absolutely. so somebody a bunch of these ballooning, you know, and i know, i know, i know, you know, they've made a commitment. they've made a commitment to increase defense spending is 2.5 send of gdp by to like putting the consented, punched by the court news. nobody is talking about about that debate is just being, you know, based on that debate that, that's just been accepted as given. but the, the debate itself is really about domestic issues. that's, that's the 1st, that's the 1st aspect. that's the 1st aspect of my response to a question. the 2nd aspect is, even though they don't talk to you by the all the actually really make us any save . you know, by have a phone policy, it is actually increasing the likelihood of a must be

a general conflict unit in europe. but i think that they absolutely on helping the domestic constituencies because even though they, they, the seized at the base is actually the policies that actually make the outliers much more dangerous. yes, you know, we're worried about the cost of living causes, getting appointments in the hospital ensemble way to buy a new table, frankly. now there is an argument in british politics that, um, you know, your political environment reached its big back in 2016. i mean, the, the big of population reached with the breakfast. well done, that if the labor wins this time around, the developing, the 5, the return of british political life back to, to the center and the bread and butter concerns, which they separately press rhetorically. but do you actually by do you think there is a sort of this being the mental and within your political leads to actually get to the, you know, mundane and boring, work of governance?

politics is puckered just by its nature, democratic politics because one side to have move. it's then the other side that by some nation, when was politics ever know populace? i'm going to take on this issue with you in the next question. good. the fact and you are the best my for us. good. but i think we just stuck in a bullying. mundane middle wouldn't be really has kind of flesh ideas on the thing . that's a real problem on the think. actually, that may be one of the reasons going back to what we discussed at the top of this session. why nation is policies a start integrating popularity? because, you know, they actually are offering something different now some aspects of what they offer, you know that and the immigration and stuff. i personally don't support that because i'm po, i've been told isn't and that sort of thing. but the holding a button, but you know, outside the body to back to display bigler things, they'll thing, alternative ideas. and i think guys, you know, that is going to be more appeal. now you mentioned a minute ago that uh, pop politics is popular was by definition, i'm just not it's,

and i agree with you and i think we can see about right now playing out in the u. k with the sort of a lot of alpha says being pulled by the torres on the tactical aspects of voting and trying to get as many bo, uh, voters out to you, the banned books as. and we saw the same thing and during the previous election campaign in the united states with the democrats going out of that way. and you know, as trying to facilitate the procedure to the, to an extent when some concerns about the credibility you were raised above. you know, that's done everywhere, but after the bellows boxes or the poles close, uh, you need to get to down to work. and by that that, that's what happens if you have a good leader. because at the end of the day, politics is supposed to be about the delivery rather the delivery of the resolved. so rather than the delivery of boats. so i, i wonder if, again, i guess i'm asking the same question in

a different way either and i've leaders from your side, at least, who genuine me, one to change things around, maybe in a controversial way, but to in january, want to bring change about not themselves into the office or that you know, even political interest, but actually change something for the people. yeah, i mean, i don't see any kind of genuine fresh ideas coming from any, any physical body in this campaign. some areas of interest. i suppose that i'm giving of bodies more independence by the office of bloodstream responsibility and things of that that i see mail is what, what kind of tiny bug government did in 1997 when it came to the bank of england independence, which is one of the best things actually they have, i haven't been, they'll have use of government meddling and they say, so macro economic phase. but in terms of the big ticket issues, i didn't really see any sort of size would change. you know, the k is the country with massive debt lossy cost like have in the, in the unprecedented, simple and bloody to make people j and k. but, but, you know, we have to use that. we didn't have a somebody to spend,

even though actually it was spending another no, but a 5 cent of d. p on dependency. but nobody's even talk to you by that. there's no money to kind of come up with some fresh ideas. and that would be like its idea of cutting public service is cutting simple 7 stoves making as it onto that sort of thing. so. so we kind of stuck, we've got no money. we've golf, nobody lied is people just fed up with the toys that we're gonna end up with of a bullying label 5 minutes to instead. but that doesn't ladies necessarily signify . we'll change the said proud. we have to take a very short break right now. but we will be back in just a few moments, stay tuned. the exception. and i'm here to plan with you whatever you do. you do not watch my new show. seriously. why watch something that's so different. whitelisted opinions that he won't get anywhere else. welcome to please, or do they have the state department, c i a weapons, bankers,

multi 1000000000 dollar corporations. choose your facts for you. go ahead. change and whatever you do. don't want my shelves to stay main street because i'm probably going to make you uncomfortable. my show is called stretching time, but again, we don't wanna watch it because it might just change the way the the man come back to the portsmouth in proud of form and british diplomat. and also

ralph missed it in moscow, have read his diplomacy in russia. failed mister, proud to have been a very active watcher and commentator of the conflict in ukraine. and we partially discussed already how it may be affected by various political developments in the west. but i want to ask this question specifically, do you think they will be any change uh, after the results of british or american elections are out there thing they'll be any change on the bus to the police selections, because i know the conservatives of the labor party seem to have exactly the same policy, which is a policy no to discuss the own ranks and those who spoke to you claim. but the 2nd point is we didn't really have any power any way because you know, policy is almost completely decided by the united states of america. and on that, i think actually any bizarre from the east presidential election that led to this is a trump examples of game power. you know, could seep sense here is shifting in post to where he's being quite open in saying that he would stop. no, that's why they trump the thing. i mean, you know,

whether he could do it as another massive but i think boy, he has that is a, he would say to and this kind of non stop pollution of billions and billions were saving up. so you know, effect and any kind of making you create more in depth said losing motels, you're losing more lives, you know, from this kind of turkey point. this will also, they get, know, that's what trump essentially kind of would like to do. so they would know the american, i would many but either way, but uh, but i mean i think that that will be the key change. if it happens. if the truck comes to pounds and it goes it by and stays in device and the other side of the area that i liked, it seems to increase every day that you roll before that open award between the ukrainian or russian became inevitable. so as soon as the biden became the 46 president of the united states, did you reach that conclusion based on uh, biden's own political world view, or perhaps the lack of there? oh, well, i mean, you had a bite and was a bit like a, you know, george

w bush when it a civil side legal invasion or if we walk in in 2003, there's a real kind of sense of unfinished business, you know, put george w bush, you know, back in 2003 and by and when he came to pass for me is really old by this, this really deep seated reading. the them got positive being cheated. see, i have from the election victory back in 2016 way over is gonna have time maybe when you're there. and so if it is by the russian intelligence as always, kind of things that they were complaining about. and so the thing that they much kind of, uh, brought into his world view when he came to power and he bolt back in the hole to the toy need. and so it takes a is so booms and it'd be blood. i had been in the wilderness under the of the drum and it's just a complete but 10 to the can available is us policy that had been placing it since and stuff the grain quite so said everything that he did. did you know when he came to power? i said, well, you know, i was going to finish business do with the washer. i don't like so the page is the last. so with that being ukraine will be the volks, but we'll go back to square one. and that's where we all today. no further thoughts

. i'm sure you have caught some glimpses of the year's presidential debate. what impression did it make on you? it was that it will side. i mean, for any old man, right. i mean, my dad's old he's, he's actually old and by and i is really sad. see, you know, that, that happen happen. but i see that, you know, the question for me is that it has, nobody noticed this before, you know, but he's actually an old man and he's the oldest kind of us present getting into getting into the election campaign. he clearly can't cope anymore. he doesn't have the mental 5 faculties to do isn't that very much came across in the the device. so they get a lucy looked like somebody who was just too old for the job. i'm actually the other big question is policies like that now, what would you be liking for years time if he is still president there, he's not going to be any benefit then then he is now arguably he's going to be was so it may have been cashed eat as much of the devil got potty try to kind of cover all over this and say well he just had

a bad day. we will head but have bad days. you know, i have bad days too, but uh, but i think actually it would be a mistake for him to continue. you know, we all have bad days and uh, you know, i think your reference to your dad and you know and pursue that. you may have felt for by them describing this whole situation. besides, you know it's understandable on a human level, but i sometimes wonder if that it is being explored and because he's not some old ankle, you know that the you have to sympathize with. he is actually, you know, running for the very powerful office, you know, office that requires a lot of responsibilities, a lot them judgement and apart from it being an elder and in our case of elders abuse. i mean, it's pretty clear that the man is suffering suffering when he stands on that on that stage. i wonder if um, sudden this is the right emotions here because of the out of the day. it's not only that, you know,

he's being exploited and manipulated. but this whole idea of empathy, why should we emphasize with anyone who is running for that kind of off as this person needs to be sharp, he needs to be, you know, really conscious of both sides of the responsibilities and the risks associated with it. why is empathy at all relevant here? well, we'll, we'll humans, i'll be by the name of my main concern actually is a, you know, that the, his policy is he came to pass as being a complete faith, you know, just the new crane and that's the bus it. but in israel garza, you know, the relationship with china is getting any back to north korea. you know, it's, it's a name, a phone policy challenge with things and go based on is under the by miller, the ends of the bills name and he finds the that's just my personal opinions that so as somebody who thinks about the phone policy on a day to day basis, i think he's been a disaster for the people, but the us, the thing that's just accelerated, this kind of discussion, this global discussion about in a multi part of the world and how that's the building new and so in the staples. so

they're looking through the page itself isn't, isn't, as i mean as, as of a hard hearted kind of list. look at the debates that will act if he carries on that makes it more likely he's going to lose nothing on that basis. you know, maybe he should continue a bit longer, but i mean, you know, i certainly hope is a change of us policy. i mean, i'm not saying, i mean, a favor of trump, but you know, i certainly hate good to biden's not going to be re elected. now, speaking about the essential debate, i guess it was a sort of predictable, but i think still shocking. be this your absence of any substantial policy discussion because i think it was all about i'm the best and your the worst from both speakers. and none of them really bothers with providing, you know, detailed analysis of what they're going to do or what was wrong with the opponent's policies. now, i guess it's sort of what the americans have a wrong to expect,

but what about the british public is the level of a debate on par with their expectations of an educated choice. i think you knew k if, if we had um, you know, a leader of a political party is they basically suffering from the size of the dimensions. and then actually the transfer me, i'm not sure it's early at all. i haven't read whatever, whatever savings of metals i'm it, dep, my, the medical expert. but i'm, i think the physical system in the u. k. would actually kind of move that past now to invite you to the can of a. it says that they can have a tie and actually still have a rest and the end of the, the end of the day. so, but i mean, i don't, i mean, especially going to get, as you see, probably called debates, you know, as well as the new k either because you know, the 2 major parties a safe place close together. well, they really all do badges, kind of small things on the ages of all the happens because they don't have any money to spend just anything radically new. nobody can spend a lot more money and that'd be also to save

a lot of money. so they kind of stuck in this kind of middle ground and kind of ongoing eventually, as i said earlier, of what it all comes down to is actually people setup with the conceptual policy. they've been in of too long and it doesn't matter if kids does bookcase um with bullying, he's probably gonna with anyway. well, uh, i think being stuck in the middle ground is not that bad. i mean, at the end of the day or then there are people are always there and you do something with the little resources and lots of challenges that you face on a daily basis. and i don't see why the life of full edition should be any different, but i thought it would be that would be true if we would also have, you know, debate about some misadventures. adored, you know, if we, if we weren't doing that. so i would agree with the 100 percent, but i'm forcing beyond that makes us less safe. speaking with the british politics, it's true that the last few prime ministers into your care. i mean they, they all have different appearances, but the policy is, they pursued or rather they failed to pursue, were uh,

pretty much the same. and he has the british politics maybe just by parents of it makes an impression of being or more open or perhaps more representative of, of wider political choice. you have a number of bodies in the running. what are the chances of long done if not dis, investing itself uh, from the this western uh, very uniform flow into, towards the disaster, but then at least trying to in or steer the boat in a way that would maximize its profits or perhaps minimize the disadvantages for itself, that would be um, easier if you had more than placing the welcome you have now let me uh, ability to see if anything has been diminished significant the even steering b. it'd be bouncing the wall, steering big events within your own country, or, i mean, they've rooting a little bit of that attention, rhetorical attention towards, you know, domestic issues that will make it stronger domestically. and perhaps brand is more

revenues as well. yeah, no, exactly. i mean, but i, the companies that she's starting to look strongly. now i see what often happens when a government comes to name is a new coverage. inheritance inherits it's at the time when the economy is just starting to improve and get so that the benefit from the economic go ahead. so i'm gonna focus on so that's not a great disney pull and go on. the new child said i'm grateful. the use of inc cable in the wind. how to, you know, by this into a better shape than it was. but they're still massive challenges that they'd be facing, you know, let's say, i don't know if the dates, you know, how well i going to do. i wouldn't buy for deceptively, but anyway, but so, but let's say now as the rest of them clearly biased and ill will towards the western politicians. but if we look at the reactions to the debate, as well as to the general discourse and the west, coming from the global south, it's pretty clear that people around the world find this style and the substance of politics quite debates. i wonder what influence do you think it may have on the,

you know, international relations more generally? well, i think, you know, what's happening. so even if the break sleeping is really, really important, because on like the g 7, which is just an exclusive club, but any till to kind of the most wealthy countries in that kind of west and the us dominated group red bricks is trying to kind of bore nat just discussing to include all the old countries in the, in the developing world and the thing that so really interesting area right now in terms of actually making sure that so people mask a yeah. less than america, you know, parts of asia, a more involved and these kind of big discussions by go. i mean that's all you as well, don't worry about discussion. so i think the focus is primarily on practical uh, working projects. something that yeah, and they don't deliver rather than being something else, right. of course it is. uh, but the point is they're involved in that. why and they haven't have a saved and all kept kept as these kind of small, exclusive clubs. you know, a lot of the use of the thing that simple and movement as you know,

united people stuff's going to wait and selves of the belief that we have it in the us. we trust them. we don't need to worry about anything else. and i think, you know, that's, that's a will set the break. so they did is they must of want to walk, said when it's going to 2 decades. well, even if they wanted to trust in the united states, i'm in the have spent, if they are to do that i'm, you're saying the, i'm just saying that that's a, you know, well and then at the end of the day, i mean, it's uh, sort of the, the exact reverse of, uh, the american soul spyware. i mean, even if you one that'd be associated with it with the west, it's, you know, your own self preservation instinct. definitely let you do that very easily. anyway, it's a proud, it's been great talking to you as always. thank you very much for that. thank you. it's on a lovely to see you again. and thank you for watching focus here again on the world's a part of the,

[000:00:00;00] the, [000:00:00;00] the take a fresh look around there's a life kaleidoscopic, isn't just a shifted reality distortion by tell us to do vision with no real opinions. fixtures designed to simplify will confuse really was a better wills. i mean,

it just does. it shows you few fractured images presented to this, but can you see through their illusion going underground? can the the . 2 the do it all the beautiful. 0 tools or you just give them the ones you should start to go. i still have to meet you be able to see the started